Christian hostility to Islam?

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As a Catholic, there are many things about Islam I disagree with. But I have read the Qu’ran, and have many Muslim friends. They are generally amiable people with desires and ambitions like others. The Qu’ran, though contain various violent passages (like the the Bible), contain many great and beautiful passages about God and obedience and call her faithful to give alms and do goods. Now admittedly not all Muslims practice what Islam preaches, and like many Christians there are Muslim extremists who flaunt about cherry picking verses to justify their violence. However does this justify our prejudice against these people and against this religion that teaches about one God and shares many similarities with the Christian faith when there are many other religions running completely in contradiction with the Christian faith? (Buddhism, Hinduism…). Why do so many Christian apologists and authors feel such great need to crusade against Islam and Muslims and spread lies about them? Why so many, having never studied the religion themselves, bear false witness about it? True there is a growing population of Muslims in Europe, but these occur mostly as the result of immigration. Should we not worry more about the secularization of Europe, which is advancing much quicker?
 
tata888 said:
As a Catholic, there are many things about Islam I disagree with. But I have read the Qu’ran, and have many Muslim friends. They are generally amiable people with desires and ambitions like others. The Qu’ran, though contain various violent passages (like the the Bible), contain many great and beautiful passages about God and obedience and call her faithful to give alms and do goods. Now admittedly not all Muslims practice what Islam preaches, and like many Christians there are Muslim extremists who flaunt about cherry picking verses to justify their violence. However does this justify our prejudice against these people and against this religion that teaches about one God and shares many similarities with the Christian faith when there are many other religions running completely in contradiction with the Christian faith? (Buddhism, Hinduism…). Why do so many Christian apologists and authors feel such great need to crusade against Islam and Muslims and spread lies about them? Why so many, having never studied the religion themselves, bear false witness about it? True there is a growing population of Muslims in Europe, but these occur mostly as the result of immigration. Should we not worry more about the secularization of Europe, which is advancing much quicker?
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Well, I’ll put it like this. Christians may need to be more understanding about Muslims. But we should not accept their theology as a compromise vs secularization. Also we need to be strong against to what I say is misunderstanding about Christianity . Christianity existed long before such thing as the Quran.

That said, human nature (whichever faith one follows) has a tendency to be hostile when we rely on ourselves and we forget that God loves us. We are all sinners.:o

MJ
 
Fundamentally agree with sentiments expressed in both posts. I do not understand why some Christians or Muslims attack other faiths.

That said, I think there is a threat from Muslim extremist worldwide terrorism. It is frequently overstated, but it exists. The extremists, in turn, claim there is a war on Islam. The haters on both sides use those dynamics to muddy the water.

It appears American Muslims are far, far more accepting than some of their co-religionists overseas.

Lastly, I also think Islam needs a reformation. In many respects, it is mired in the 7th Century, and some facets are absolutely barbaric. Until that happens, the road to greater understanding will be even bumpier.
 
In every religion there will be extremists, Islam notwithstanding. We Christians have them too.
 
Absolutely. Didn’t say we didn’t. I thought that was a given, or I would have mentioned it. However, violent “Christian” extremism is far less frequent in the world than violence by Islamist militants.

And something I should have mentioned above is that there are definite political and legal objectives in Islam. It’s doctrine also creates a clear demarcation between “us and them.” Those sorts of things are going to create friction with Western societies where we enjoy a separation of church and state, and much more religious freedom. I personally think mixing politics with religion is about the most dangerous concoction on the planet. We Christians know first-hand the sad and violent history of that sort of thing.
 
LtTony said:
Absolutely. Didn’t say we didn’t. I thought that was a given, or I would have mentioned it. However, violent “Christian” extremism is far less frequent in the world than violence by Islamist militants.

And something I should have mentioned above is that there are definite political and legal objectives in Islam. It’s doctrine also creates a clear demarcation between “us and them.”
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Islam undoubtedly is more militaristic than Christianity. This is understandable,given thatt he Qu’ran was written during a time when Muslims were persecuted by their pagan neighbors, fighting is necessary.However the Qu’ran also makes sure that fighting must only comes as the last resort, only when provoked must Muslims stand up and fight. Certainly not the “turn the other cheek” message, but it is not inherently evil. And while there is a clear distinction between the believers and the infidels, Muslims are instructed to not commit harms to non-believers. If we read the Bible, we can also find very clear distinction between the saved and unsaved, Gentiles and Jews.

There are certainly legal and political objectives in Islam. Like the Jewish Torah, the Qu’ran is not only a spiritual guide but also a political and legal guide for a newfound group in much needs of organizations. While many Qu’ranic laws are out of touch with modern society (as with Jewish laws), many are quite compatible to today’s belief in democracy and equality.

As for Christian extremism, in certain parts of the world Christian extremism unfortunately is real. Kony for example is a “Christian” extremist who led an army that caused countless deaths and destructions. Many crusaders could also be called extremists due to their bloodthirst. While Islamic extremism is prominent in this day and age, Christian extremism is not as rare as we think it is.
 
tata888 said:
As a Catholic, there are many things about Islam I disagree with. But I have read the Qu’ran, and have many Muslim friends. They are generally amiable people with desires and ambitions like others. The Qu’ran, though contain various violent passages (like the the Bible), contain many great and beautiful passages about God and obedience and call her faithful to give alms and do goods. Now admittedly not all Muslims practice what Islam preaches, and like many Christians there are Muslim extremists who flaunt about cherry picking verses to justify their violence. However does this justify our prejudice against these people and against this religion that teaches about one God and shares many similarities with the Christian faith when there are many other religions running completely in contradiction with the Christian faith? (Buddhism, Hinduism…). Why do so many Christian apologists and authors feel such great need to crusade against Islam and Muslims and spread lies about them? Why so many, having never studied the religion themselves, bear false witness about it? True there is a growing population of Muslims in Europe, but these occur mostly as the result of immigration. Should we not worry more about the secularization of Europe, which is advancing much quicker?
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Oh my! There are so many things in you post that suggest that you may have lost your way.
If you have truly read the Koran, you have learned that it calls for the destruction or subjugation of nonbelievers, ie Christians and others. Large parts of the Koran are blatantly anti-Christian.
If you are a Christian and have actually read the Koran and understood its intent, you would never claim that “it has violent passages, like the Bible”.
Then you seem to be talking about Christians who cherry pick passages to justify their extremism.
What Christian extremism?
And which Christian apologists “crusade” agains islam?
I like your use of the term “crusade” which is so emotionally charged for any Muslim.
And then you complain that so many Christians never studied islam but bear false witness!!!

We do not bear false witness. We state the truth. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. This is our faith. It has nothing to do with islam.
Our apologists state and restate these simple truths.
There is no need for us to attack islam. If our apologists mention it in passing, it is usually to point out that it is virulently anti-Christian. The Koran is filled with antiChristian statements, so there is reason to offer a rebuttal.
And there is no need to spread lies about the Koran. It is sufficient to quote from it to make you embarrased.

Chist be with you!!!
 
Saint John Damascene would have some words for you and you might not like them (IE against heresies, on Islam). While I consider it rediculous to paint all muslims as terrorists or such a thing, their theology at its core is wrong and denies God for who is ie, the holy trinity (say not three says the quran). Muslims also deny salvation by the cross, ie God who loved them became incarnate for them so as to redeem us, but this to the muslim is amongst the worst of sins, the worst sin is to associate partners with allah, which Christians ultimately do commit if islam is correct. So the feeling is mutual by both muslims and Christians, we both view each other inherently as abominabdle heresies, thats not to impune personal character though, although I would suggest those who fight jihad for allah are fulfilling the quran and the teachings of the prophet more so than those who do not (luckily western Muslims are more reasonable).
 
Ontheway said:
Oh my! There are so many things in you post that suggest that you may have lost your way.
If you have truly read the Koran, you have learned that it calls for the destruction or subjugation of nonbelievers, ie Christians and others. Large parts of the Koran are blatantly anti-Christian.
If you are a Christian and have actually read the Koran and understood its intent, you would never claim that “it has violent passages, like the Bible”.
Then you seem to be talking about Christians who cherry pick passages to justify their extremism.
What Christian extremism?
And which Christian apologists “crusade” agains islam?
I like your use of the term “crusade” which is so emotionally charged for any Muslim.
And then you complain that so many Christians never studied islam but bear false witness!!!

We do not bear false witness. We state the truth. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. This is our faith. It has nothing to do with islam.
Our apologists state and restate these simple truths.
There is no need for us to attack islam. If our apologists mention it in passing, it is usually to point out that it is virulently anti-Christian. The Koran is filled with antiChristian statements, so there is reason to offer a rebuttal.
And there is no need to spread lies about the Koran. It is sufficient to quote from it to make you embarrased.

Chist be with you!!!
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Yes, the Koran does contain anti-Christian passages. However if you have read it you would have known in many passages it is mentioned that Christians along with Jews may go to heaven if they are devout and live up their Scriptures (The Cow Surah). The reason why I compared the Qu’ran to the Bible is because while many Christians criticize the Qu’ran for its violent elements, they seem to neglect the fact that the Old Testament is filled with violent stories, many of which are great materials for an NC-17 rated movie (Joshua slaughtering every living being, young people mauled to death for calling Elijah bald, Ehud the fat man stabbed so bad that fat comes out…).

As for Christian extremism, you can find it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Which Christian apologist crusades against Islam? A book I saw in a Catholic site called “Christianity, Islam, and Atheism: the struggle for the soul of the West” by William Kilpatrick suggests that the rise of Islam (by barely a few percents) is killing Western civilization. Our friends at the Catholic Answers also have an interesting article on Islam: catholic.com/documents/endless-jihad-the-truth-about-islam-and-violence. These are only Catholic ones. Need we mention other Christian denominations who harbors so much anger for Islam, so much so that they would burn their Scriptures and causes the life of their Muslim neighbors uneasy?

Is there violence in Islamic countries, I admit. However we must understand that much of these violence and terrorism was provoked by the West as they colonized and used these people for political means. Al-Quaeda itself is a product of the West, a monster we conjured and lost control.
 
Tata:
There is element of truth to your last point, but the weight of evidence disagrees with you on most every point. And I thought we were talking about today, the right now, the present. Not to launch another debate on The Crusades.

“many are quite compatible to today’s belief in democracy and equality”

You mean like the punishment for a homosexual act? Death? That is so far off the chart that it derails so may good things about the religion.

Look, let’s just leave it at: we should be more charitable to people of other faiths. I don’t care to debate specifics because it is clear we each have a very different world view.

Everyone is aware of Christian extremism and other things you bring up, and it is good to keep those sinful things fresh in our minds. But if you’re trying to compare Christian RELIGIOUS violence with that of Islamists TODAY, well, you’re out to lunch.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Saint John Damascene would have some words for you and you might not like them (IE against heresies, on Islam). While I consider it rediculous to paint all muslims as terrorists or such a thing, their theology at its core is wrong and denies God for who is ie, the holy trinity (say not three says the quran). Muslims also deny salvation by the cross, ie God who loved them became incarnate for them so as to redeem us, but this to the muslim is amongst the worst of sins, the worst sin is to associate partners with allah, which Christians ultimately do commit if islam is correct. So the feeling is mutual by both muslims and Christians, we both view each other inherently as abominabdle heresies, thats not to impune personal character though, although I would suggest those who fight jihad for allah are fulfilling the quran and the teachings of the prophet more so than those who do not (luckily western Muslims are more reasonable).
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Rabinical Judaism itself is a form of heresy according to Christian teachings, yet we don’t seem very antagonizing toward them as much as toward Muslims.
 
Because I don’t think they are trying to kill us at the moment. At least not that I’m aware of.
 
tata888 said:
Rabinical Judaism itself is a form of heresy according to Christian teachings, yet we don’t seem very antagonizing toward them as much as toward Muslims.
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Probably because they don’t try to convert actively us. Though I think anti missionaries need to be addressed and substantially refuted.
 
Now you bring up the Christian criticism of violence perpetuated by the Quran. And as to counter that you bring up examples from the Old testament. The problem with that is the quran generally doesn’t offer a context for its commands to go fight the unbelievers till they pay the tax with submission and willingness (paraphrasing) and this implies a universal connatation that it is for all time.

The law of the old testament and the punishments perscribed were only for israel, not the world and they ceased to be in effect when Christ came. Also the wrath of God in the old testament in regaurds to whom he destroys and whom he orders the israelites to Kill were specific incidents, never intended to be the general way things are done.
 
tata888 said:
Islam undoubtedly is more militaristic than Christianity. This is understandable,given thatt he Qu’ran was written during a time when Muslims were persecuted by their pagan neighbors, fighting is necessary.

For a Catholic, your views are those of a traditional Muslim. But, even if you are not, you should do some fact checking. There was no pagan persecution of Islam, because there was no islam to persecute. It was Mohamad who was the aggressor in the tribal infighting that was taking place in the Arab lands. He propoted his new religion through violent means and eventually subjugated the Arab tribes. Violence is at the very root of Islam and it never ceased.

However the Qu’ran also makes sure that fighting must only comes as the last resort, only when provoked must Muslims stand up and fight. Certainly not the “turn the other cheek” message, but it is not inherently evil. And while there is a clear distinction between the believers and the infidels, Muslims are instructed to not commit harms to non-believers.

Except in those passages where they are isntructed to destroy or subjugate them.

If we read the Bible, we can also find very clear distinction between the saved and unsaved, Gentiles and Jews.

But, no instruction to destroy or enslave them. Not in the New Testatment, in any event.

*There are certainly legal and political objectives in Islam. Like the Jewish Torah, the Qu’ran is not only a spiritual guide but also a political and legal guide for a newfound group in much needs of organizations. While many Qu’ranic laws are out of touch with modern society (as with Jewish laws), many are quite compatible to today’s belief in democracy and equality. *

**Not quite. These democratic ideas are extened only to the muslims. Everyone esle is to be desroyed or subjugated. **
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Why do so many Christian apologists and authors feel such great need to crusade against Islam and Muslims and spread lies about them?
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Sweeping generalizations need some concrete examples in order to give some context.
Which apologists?
Which lies?
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Now you bring up the Christian criticism of violence perpetuated by the Quran. And as to counter that you bring up examples from the Old testament. The problem with that is the quran generally doesn’t offer a context for its commands to go fight the unbelievers till they pay the tax with submission and willingness (paraphrasing) and this implies a universal connatation that it is for all time.

The law of the old testament and the punishments perscribed were only for israel, not the world and they ceased to be in effect when Christ came. Also the wrath of God in the old testament in regaurds to whom he destroys and whom he orders the israelites to Kill were specific incidents, never intended to be the general way things are done.
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It is true that non-believers are taxed more heavily than believers. Nonetheless they are sufficiently tolerated. In its earlier time many Sultans even openly debated with Christians and Jews in regard to doctrines. St. Francis himself was allowed to preach the Gospel without further persecution after he performed miracles to the sultans. Meanwhile in Europe non-Christians are openly persecuted, especially at the rise of the Inquisition, countless Jews and Muslims were exiled out of the country. If given the choice, would you rather be ruled by one who simply taxes you heavier, or openly expelled out of the country of your birth? Like the laws of Jewish torah, Islamic laws, though intended as universal law since Islam is a universal religion, is intended for only Islamic societies. In early Islamic history Jewish and Christian societies are free to operate their societies according to their laws and customs.

You said that violence was never meant to be how things are done in the Old Testament. Yet it seems for every crime from adultery to disobedience to parents the only consequence has been death by stoning. How is this any different to Islamic teachings?
 
Ontheway said:
tata888;10381275:
For a Catholic, your views are those of a traditional Muslim. But, even if you are not, you should do some fact checking. There was no pagan persecution of Islam, because there was no islam to persecute. It was Mohamad who was the aggressor in the tribal infighting that was taking place in the Arab lands. He propoted his new religion through violent means and eventually subjugated the Arab tribes. Violence is at the very root of Islam and it never ceased.
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In many parts of the world Christianity was spread through means of conquest and colonialism. While it is true that Islamic forces did wage war with other nations, to say violence is at the very root of Islam is a very sweep generalization, the same term many have accused of me here. Perhaps it is this perception that has caused so many misunderstandings between Christians and Muslims.

Except in those passages where they are isntructed to destroy or subjugate them.

which are…?

But, no instruction to destroy or enslave them. Not in the New Testatment, in any event.

But many in the Old Testament

**Not quite. These democratic ideas are extened only to the muslims. Everyone esle is to be desroyed or subjugated. **

Actually there were many other religious groups that lived among Muslims. Early Hadiths portrayed Muhammad as respectful to others regardless of their religious traditions.Many various surahs the Qu’ran promised salvation even for non-Muslims as long as they worship God

“Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.”
Surah 5:69

To sweeply say that anyone else who disbelieve will be destroyed or subjugated is again, a misstatement. While many minor religious groups were persecuted (as they were in Christian Europe),they were granted a right to life and Muslims, unless provoked, is forbidden to slain any because of their religion.
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Because Of 911… For one thing for a second how about how Christians are treated in Egypt or a third look what just happen to Catholics in Timbuktu
 
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