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Kithrus
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Just don’t put more into it then what’s there.
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celtic_catholic_1
Guest
Well, if the reader appreciates the work of God,sees a Christian allegory or something along those lines, even if it that isn’t the point of the book, is it really a bad thing?
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Della
Guest
I agree that people can take it too far. For example, a “Gandalf IS Christ” kind of thing. Sure, Gandalf has Christ-like attributes, but he’s not a one-on-one representation of Christ.
The first time I heard of “The Hobbit” and “Lord of the Rings” I was a member of the Assemblies of God having come to it from the Episcopal Church (which is too long a story to tell here). Ralph Bakshi made an animated version of LOTR which I saw at the theater. Right away I realized that it was a spiritual work, not merely a children’t fairy tale. I went straight from the theater to a book store, bought the 3 paperback versions of LOTR and read Frodo’s journey in one weekend. At the end of that weekend I was a different person.
What I’m driving at is this, Tolkien’s story is saturated with his Catholicism the way a friut cake is saturated with rum. You can tell there’s something good there, but you can’t immediately lay a finger on what it is. Better–it’s like standing before the tabernacle for the first time and realizing that Someone is there–that it’s not just a pretty box but the repository of the divine. LOTR is that for many people. It makes them want to define it and nail it down in concrete terms, but it can’t be, still they want to be able to say–this is how it shows Christ and Mary and how we are to live as Christians. But, its essence cannot be expressed even by doing that because, like the Eucharist, it has to experienced be truly understood.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Have you ever been exposed to any of the scholarly research on this subject?
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Kithrus
Guest
I’m going to have to give you an example here.Well, if the reader appreciates the work of God,sees a Christian allegory or something along those lines, even if it that isn’t the point of the book, is it really a bad thing?
The act of throwing yourself on a grenade to save someone else is Christ like. That I’m sure we both can agree. This act of heroism is a frequent plot point used in many stories both real and otherwise. The act of holding the bridge/hallway/stair ect with the expectation you will die does call to mind christs own sacrifice.
This being said however just because it was used by a catholic doesn’t automatically mean the writer in this case Tolkien was thinking about Christs sacrifice. He could have but at its core it was just another noble act for the story.
Are you going to compare the Spartans in the same way? Or better yet spartigus? He was crucified too after all!
See Tolkien wasn’t blunt like his buddy CS Lewis. He made a story with good moral points full stop.
If you see God in truth good on you but don’t connect dots that are not there. It’s the worst insult an artist can recieve cause you cheapen the intended message.
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Kithrus
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celtic_catholic_1
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Ah, I think I see what you are trying to say now. However, since Tolkiens work is fictional and didn’t use the allegorical method of writing that C.S.Lewis did, many people might have a harder time making some distinction and make those connections given his religious faith. Especially if they haven’t studied his work in depth. I did actually read somewhere that Tolkien did in fact have the death and resurrection of Christ in mind when Gandalf intended to end his own life in ‘‘The Hobbit’’ to save Bilbo and the dwarfs, so I’m not really assuming anything. Fictional works can be interpreted in different ways much easier than historical ones, so your spartan example might be slightly out of context.
I’m not saying your completely wrong, I just think that it’s what you get out of the story that’s important. Now if they start jumping to conclusions, then obviously they aren’t getting the message.
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Kithrus
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You get the intended idea.
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Sailor_Kenshin
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And you imply that you are the sole true interpreter of Tolkien’s message.
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Kithrus
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No I imply muddying the waters with your personal interiptaion catholic or other wise dulutes the intended point.
Good or otherwise mostly because if you keep losing the intended message because you just got to show everyone what you thought it meant then why did the artist make it at all
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Della
Guest
Hey guys, there’s no right way or wrong way to interpret a work of art. It’s going to mean different things to different people. While Tolkien’s Catholic worldview was a definite factor in his writing, he didn’t insist that people read it that way. He detested allegory and did his best to avoid it. Anyway, let’s not get all worked up about it. If people see things in LOTR and his other writings that bolsters their faith, that’s fine. I’m sure he wouldn’t object to that, but all he wanted to do was tell a good, long story that would hold people’s interest. He didn’t set out to rewrite the Bible or anything as grand as that. 
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latin_rite
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Wish i could “dash” off a book like that.
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Sailor_Kenshin
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More germane is to ask WHY some self-appointed experts feel it’s an ‘insult’ to read Catholicism into the work of a Catholic author. *And seem to take great pains to crush the delight of discovery in the author’s work.
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pnewton
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I have no doubt that Tolkien’s faith come through in all his works, though he did not do so consciously. Yet when he is considering the resolution to the war, for example, it is not in his character to make Biblo into a warrior, but to show once again the greater strength that can be found through virtue.
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celtic_catholic_1
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I am not trying to start an argument, but how do you come to the conclusion that he didn’t consciously put his faith in his works? Are you basing your statement on some source or writing? If so, I would like to see it since Tolkien himself said the ‘‘Hobbit’’ and the ‘‘Lord of the Rings’’ are ‘‘a fundamentally religious and Catholic work’’. It sure seems like any elements in those books that seem to be inspired or based on his faith are intentional. Now, he doesn’t make any references to Catholicism blatantly obvious, but they are there. Subtle, but definitely intentional.
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pnewton
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Hmm. I did not know of that. I looked up the quote (the rest of it) and it seems to confirm my impression. BTW - My impression was based on my own reading and feel for the Hobbit as well some lectures by Peter Kreeft, where he quoted JRRT downplaying the conscious religious elements. I will see if I can find some.
Note this statement only was applicable to LOTR, which took much longer. Now if there was not conscious recognition of the religious and Catholic elements in LOTR until he was revising it, it is unlikely that he had any consciously in The Hobbit.
I would like to clarify one thing, when I downplay the conscious role of the author’s Christianity, I know that any author’s character will always come through his work. A dark man will write darkly; a Christian will think like a Christian as he writes.
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celtic_catholic_1
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I know that Tolkien never set out to make his Middle Earth stories as super religious or anything like that, but like the quote mentioned, in his revisions, quite a few religious symbolisms became apparent in the story. To me that seems like his faith is so ingrained in his mind that it begins to form itself even in his work. From my understanding, he felt they strengthened his stories and made them more relevant.
I am trying to find the book ‘‘The Christian World of The Hobbit’’ by Deven Brown. That seems to have some interesting things on Tolkien and his works, as well as the influence his faith had on his writings.
I mentioned earlier that I was watching ‘‘The Hidden Meaning of the Lord of the Rings’’ taught by Joseph Pearce and so far, there seems to be no question that Catholicism played a major part in his many works,and that he did intentionally work it into the story. Take Aragorn for example. Tolkien made a few inspirational references to Christ and his kingship in the character as well as to King Arthur. The character isn’t an allegorical figure to either of them, but he did give them some of the qualities that Christ and Arthur possess.
So I guess in a way you are correct. The Christian elements in the stories may not always have been intentional, but on the other hand, he did include quite a few references and symbolic elements in his writings that were deliberate.
Sorry for the long reply
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Razanir
Guest
The main ones I can think of (in LotR at least) are:I know that Tolkien never set out to make his Middle Earth stories as super religious or anything like that, but like the quote mentioned, in his revisions, quite a few religious symbolisms became apparent in the story. To me that seems like his faith is so ingrained in his mind that it begins to form itself even in his work. From my understanding, he felt they strengthened his stories and made them more relevant.
I am trying to find the book ‘‘The Christian World of The Hobbit’’ by Deven Brown. That seems to have some interesting things on Tolkien and his works, as well as the influence his faith had on his writings.
I mentioned earlier that I was watching ‘‘The Hidden Meaning of the Lord of the Rings’’ taught by Joseph Pearce and so far, there seems to be no question that Catholicism played a major part in his many works,and that he did intentionally work it into the story. Take Aragorn for example. Tolkien made a few inspirational references to Christ and his kingship in the character as well as to King Arthur. The character isn’t an allegorical figure to either of them, but he did give them some of the qualities that Christ and Arthur possess.
So I guess in a way you are correct. The Christian elements in the stories may not always have been intentional, but on the other hand, he did include quite a few references and symbolic elements in his writings that were deliberate.
Sorry for the long reply
– Frodo, Gandalf and Aragorn as priest, prophet and king
– Lembas being similar to the Eucharist (read the chapter Mount Doom)
– Elf “magic” and the Sacraments. “For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.” (“The Mirror of Galadriel”)
– Gandalf admonishing the death penalty. “Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in the name of justice.” (“The Shadow of the Past”)
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louisak
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No they don’t. I’ve read the Lord of the Rings a half-dozen times, the Silmarillion several times. The Elves sing songs in honor of Varda (in Sindarin called Elbereth or Gilthoniel = Star-Kindler]). To say that they actually worship her is something of a stretch. And by no possible interpretation can you say that they actually worship the stars themselves, or the sun and moon.
In fact, since the Elves were immortal, some of the elves living even in Frodo’s time were personally present when the sun and moon were created. A person is hardly going to worship something that was created after one was born.
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Viki63
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You might well say that. Because, IMHO, the story of Christ is the paradigmatic eucatastrophe on which all other stories in the world are based. It is the one true story, the template for all such tales, although it is true. Which makes it even cooler.
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