Christian Imagery in "The Hobbit"

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I don’t have my copy handy as I’m on the road but same book I can show you the counter point.
 
Here is the thing in stories be it fiction or non fiction. There is the truth then there are perceptions of the truth. Not all elves are as old as Elron or Galadriel. Some elves don’t have all the truth. That doesn’t make tolkien kind books less catholic as much as well rounded fleshed out world.
 
Are you defending Catholicism or Tolkien? Keep in mind they are Not one and the same. Lotr is not an allegory as much as really well told fantasy story.

Lets assume for a second I’m wrong. At the end the day Tolkien book is still a good read. There’s good moral lesson in there. I find the fastest way however to lose a moral lesson is to have over the top Christians make allegory claims.

Why you may ask? Because as much as we aspire to be like Christ we can’t both by ability, fear of God and just generaly be like Him. God is allowed to beat money changers out of him temple not your average joe. There is a separation between us. Jesus is man but he is God too. You put an allegory for god on something that mental separation comes in and whatever message was there is lost because we can’t do that too.

I’m not talking kindness or one of the many things people try to apply ’ wwjd’ I’m talking his death and resurrection. We kinda can’t do those things.

So don’t muddy the water and gloss over lessons like taking a grenade for the team. Christopher was in the army and that would be a legit message for him.
 
Again, this is why I prefer LotR to Narnia. I agree with Tolkien that allegory is annoying, and by the end of Narnia, it feels like Lewis is bashing me over the head with a metaphorical sledgehammer of allegory.
 
There are various authors who have suggested that there are 4 Christ archetypes in the Lord of the Rings. These are Frodo, Gandalf, Aragorn and Samwise representing Priest, Prophet, King and Loyal Friend.
Read more about it here:

americanmorals.wordpress.com/2015/05/21/the-hidden-catholic-gems-of-lord-of-the-rings/
jarrod1240.hubpages.com/hub/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-and-Christian-Symbolism

In the Hobbit, there is one Christ archetype which must not go unmentioned.
He is Thorin Oakenshield, the reasons are as below:
  1. He physically looks like Jesus.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorin_Oakenshield#/media/File:Thorin,_from_the_Hobbit.jpg
Compare the above photograph of actor Richard Armitage as Thorin Oakenshield with any picture of Jesus Christ, and you will see a great resemblance.
Jesus has often been portrayed in the media as a weak, effeminate-looking man, however in the scene where we see Thorin working hard at his forge, with his huge sweaty muscles and great black beard might be a more accurate picture of the Lord Jesus Christ working in His carpentry shop.
  1. He is King of the Dwarves (= King of the Jews)
From this quote from Tolkien, we see that the Dwarves were developed after the Jewish people, not just the language but also the history, geography and racial character.

“The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic.” JRR Tolkien

Conclusion: The Dwarves are Jewish
  1. He is the leader of a group of 12 other dwarvish disciples.
    Compare this with Jesus who leads 12 apostles.
  2. He was killed in battle, demonstrating his great love for his friends.
“No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” (John 15:13 New American Bible)
  1. He was buried with the Arkenstone over his chest.
There are various Jewish/Israeli authors who say that as the most treasured possession of the dwarves, by analogy the Arkenstone represents Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.
 
leekonghian said:
There are various authors who have suggested that there are 4 Christ archetypes in the Lord of the Rings. These are Frodo, Gandalf, Aragorn and Samwise representing Priest, Prophet, King and Loyal Friend.
Read more about it here:

americanmorals.wordpress.com/2015/05/21/the-hidden-catholic-gems-of-lord-of-the-rings/
jarrod1240.hubpages.com/hub/The-Lord-of-the-Rings-and-Christian-Symbolism

In the Hobbit, there is one Christ archetype which must not go unmentioned.
He is Thorin Oakenshield, the reasons are as below:
  1. He physically looks like Jesus.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorin_Oakenshield#/media/File:Thorin,_from_the_Hobbit.jpg
Compare the above photograph of actor Richard Armitage as Thorin Oakenshield with any picture of Jesus Christ, and you will see a great resemblance.
Jesus has often been portrayed in the media as a weak, effeminate-looking man, however in the scene where we see Thorin working hard at his forge, with his huge sweaty muscles and great black beard might be a more accurate picture of the Lord Jesus Christ working in His carpentry shop.
  1. He is King of the Dwarves (= King of the Jews)
From this quote from Tolkien, we see that the Dwarves were developed after the Jewish people, not just the language but also the history, geography and racial character.

“The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic.” JRR Tolkien

Conclusion: The Dwarves are Jewish
  1. He is the leader of a group of 12 other dwarvish disciples.
    Compare this with Jesus who leads 12 apostles.
  2. He was killed in battle, demonstrating his great love for his friends.
“No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” (John 15:13 New American Bible)
  1. He was buried with the Arkenstone over his chest.
There are various Jewish/Israeli authors who say that as the most treasured possession of the dwarves, by analogy the Arkenstone represents Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.
Click to expand...
Interesting, though I haven’t read The Hobbit recently. Where does this Tolkien quote come from?
 
This quote pops up all over the web, mostly in Israeli blogs.

tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien%27s_Works#Dwarves_as_Jews
conzervative.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/are-the-hobbit-dwarves-jewish/
timesofisrael.com/are-tolkiens-dwarves-an-allegory-for-the-jews/
ebrejukultura.lv/2014/01/13/j-r-r-tolkienthe-dwarves-remind-of-the-jews/
thejewniverse.com/2011/the-jews-of-lord-of-the-rings/
tolkienmedievalandmodern.blogspot.com/2014/06/tolkiens-jewish-question.html

Some of the links in these two threads below also have this quote:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=835724&page=6&highlight=tolkien+catholic+themes
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=844616&highlight=hobbit+catholic+themes

This is the link to the Wikipedia article:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(Middle-earth)
 
I’m in the process of moving so my notes are all over the place but Tolkin had a argument with CS Lewis about allegories and imagery.

Tolkin doesn’t like using them more so he wrote LOTR for his son to keep Christopher’s spirits up on the battlefield. The story was supposed to be relatable, a character with a grave burden constantly tempted to use the enemies method to win. The story was never intended to me or for us.

Any catholic parallel you can draw is happen stance and not design.

Stop trying to put words in Tolkins mouth. If you really want to know why he said what he said there are litterly hundreds of books about his methods from journals to Christopher musings on his father.

I know it seems harmless but when you over speculate on the message it gets Watered down and lost in translation.

Besides it comes across as corny as an adult hearing someone refer everything to what Jesus did to children.

I’m sorry but I know what Jesus did, we all do but He is perfect we are not and we do not have his clarity. I want to read about other people did and how they saw the contrast between right and wrong and gleen from that.

People can chant WWJD all they like but here is the reality: Jesus is God, he is under no moral obligations to do anything. He is within His right to kill us all on a whim because He’s God.

I want to know what a saint would do, I want to know what the pope or my primeminister or even my mayor over what would Jesus do.

Because in reality an alagory is just a rehashing of the bible and as much as I respect CS Lewis he is only as useful as Treebeard. Great when roused but horribly long winded and boring otherwise.
 
Uhmmm…

You may be wrong about ‘trying to put Catholic content into Tolkien’s mouth.’

If someone sees it, it’s there, and asTolkien himself was Catholic, it would naturally inform every word he wrote. References are not hard to find.
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
Uhmmm…

You may be wrong about ‘trying to put Catholic content into Tolkien’s mouth.’

If someone sees it, it’s there, and asTolkien himself was Catholic, it would naturally inform every word he wrote. References are not hard to find.
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Do not romanize it. You are drawing conclusions based on what you want to see.
 
I would say rather that neither work was deliberate allegory, but that Tolkien was so Catholic, that all of these types and ties came out naturally. Maybe some of it had thought, maybe some did not. Thorin had twelve companions because that is just how many he* should* have. The characters who are heroic are Christ-figures because that is what heroism is. Tolkien ate, lived and breathed his faith so it had to come out in his writing.

Likewise, his other passion was for language and cultures. Even when making up stuff, the fantasy world was patterned on the real.

If anyone wants to hear a rather interesting talk on this, Peter Kreeft gave several lectures on Tolkien. They are a blast to listen to, for those who are both Catholic and Tolkien fans.
 
Kithrus said:
I’m in the process of moving so my notes are all over the place but Tolkin had a argument with CS Lewis about allegories and imagery.

Tolkin doesn’t like using them more so he wrote LOTR for his son to keep Christopher’s spirits up on the battlefield. The story was supposed to be relatable, a character with a grave burden constantly tempted to use the enemies method to win. The story was never intended to me or for us.

Any catholic parallel you can draw is happen stance and not design.

Stop trying to put words in Tolkins mouth. If you really want to know why he said what he said there are litterly hundreds of books about his methods from journals to Christopher musings on his father.

I know it seems harmless but when you over speculate on the message it gets Watered down and lost in translation.

Besides it comes across as corny as an adult hearing someone refer everything to what Jesus did to children.

I’m sorry but I know what Jesus did, we all do but He is perfect we are not and we do not have his clarity. I want to read about other people did and how they saw the contrast between right and wrong and gleen from that.

People can chant WWJD all they like but here is the reality: Jesus is God, he is under no moral obligations to do anything. He is within His right to kill us all on a whim because He’s God.

I want to know what a saint would do, I want to know what the pope or my primeminister or even my mayor over what would Jesus do.

Because in reality an alagory is just a rehashing of the bible and as much as I respect CS Lewis he is only as useful as Treebeard. Great when roused but horribly long winded and boring otherwise.
Click to expand...
I thought he wrote “Lord of the Rings” because “the Hobbit” was such a resounding success and his publisher wouldn’t stop hounding him about the need for a follow-up.
 
Any reference to Tolkien’s quotes that I made actually refer to his actual quotes, which include the quotes he wrote at the beginning of the books to deny any allegory of his work to WW1 and WW11. The other information is based on Wikipedia articles and various blogs which say that the race of the dwarves are based on the Jews, the elves are based on Northern European language and culture, and LOTR being fundamentally based on Catholism. The rest is due to logical conclusion.
 
I can confirm that the quotes as detailed in my Tolkien Quotes Blog as below are actual Tolkien’s quotes, and are easily verifiable through internet search through any Tolkien quotes site.
hobbitandlordoftherings.blogspot.com/

In any attempt to find meaning in Tolkien’s work, we must also consider what else he said about his work other than the quote denying allegory at the beginning of the books (Which has the equivalent meaning of “No Admittance Except On Party Business”).

The following quotes (again easily verifiable) suggest that any Jewish content in the Hobbit and any Catholic content in LOTR are not happenstance, but conciously intentional:

“The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic.” JRR Tolkien

“The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.” JRR Tolkien
 
leekonghian said:
I can confirm that the quotes as detailed in my Tolkien Quotes Blog as below are actual Tolkien’s quotes, and are easily verifiable through internet search through any Tolkien quotes site.
hobbitandlordoftherings.blogspot.com/

In any attempt to find meaning in Tolkien’s work, we must also consider what else he said about his work other than the quote denying allegory at the beginning of the books (Which has the equivalent meaning of “No Admittance Except On Party Business”).

The following quotes (again easily verifiable) suggest that any Jewish content in the Hobbit and any Catholic content in LOTR are not happenstance, but conciously intentional:

“The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic.” JRR Tolkien

“The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.” JRR Tolkien
Click to expand...
Amen.
 
Yes

Kithrus’ accusation of the elves worshipping the sun, moon, or stars seem like Catholics being accused of worshipping the saints and the Virgin Mary.

The elves were well aware of the One, Eru, especially the high elves who lived in proximity with the Valar.
 
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