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planten
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Sorry, Lt Tony. I am no where near Zakir Naik or his kind of persons. He can be my student, though.
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FathersKnowBest
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This passage is about being drunk. Totally out of context.
It also says that these same people (being drunk) can err in judgement. Are we to distrust all judgement, even our own?
Of course there are. There are “false visions” and true visions. Just as there are false prophets and true prophets.
The existance of false prophets doesn’t mean that we can’t believe true prophets, but it does mean that we need to exercise judgement. I judge that Peter was not a false prophet.
Does that mean that we are to distrust all visions? Is that what you’re saying? In that case, why in the world are you a Muslim?
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Reuben_J
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I missed out this post yesterday. I smoked cigarettes once, a time long ago. It impaired in a way that I was addicted to it. No matter how much I tried to avoid it I still craved for it. What I did was to keep a small packet in my house. However when the cigarettes ran out, that was when the problem started. Your mind is not in focus on many things until you got your stick. I used to remember that I would rummage around for any remain of cigarette butts, and can you imagine, I would do anything for a cigarette. I was even willing to drive out at midnight just to buy a pack. Thanks God and by his grace today I am a smoker no more.
I thought that kind of behavior impairs my better judgment and I think cigarettes should be included along in the list of alcohol since its effect is the same even though to a lesser extent.
Well, that is what I would say since Islam is particular on this kind of things. As Christians we don’t have any problem. Smoking in itself is not a sin but nevertheless it is a social abhorrence and should be avoided as it is bad for the health not to mention the pocket. On the question of addiction, if we have Jesus why would we stick to Dunhill? So smoking is frowned upon but it is not explicitly prohibited in the Scripture; perhaps on the understanding, like all things, it must be done in moderation.
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Reuben_J
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Noted.
Only it just seems to me that your dietary law is rather selective. I was arguing on the reasons for the prohibtion of certain food as listed by another poster, amhara. We have been talking so much about logic and reason, and I don’t think based on the prohibiton of alcohol that it should not apply to cigarettes as well. And now you are talking about culture. So does it mean the word of Allah is based on cuture? If it is so, it is a new twist to the argument here.
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latin_rite
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planten wrote: You should remember that you become what you eat. If you eat chicken you become a chicken. If you eat vegetables, you become a cow. If you eat meat, you become a tiger or wolf or eagle.
I sort of understand the saying. " if you eat a chicken you become a chicken" And maybe even at a stretch eating meat makes you a tiger,wolf or a eagle. But how the heck does eating vegetables make you a cow?. And what of us catholics? We eat chicken vegetables and meat. Not to mention bacon. So that must make us, Egg laying winged tigers who’s milk makes delicious ice cream. And when we die you can cut us up and have some scrumptious bacon,
Planten wrote:So I see that by eating swine, you are becoming a swine. That is the natural consequence. By eating the flesh of swine (which was allowed to you by Paul. He took christianity to greece. He wanted to please the Greeks and permitted eating of swine because they loved it too much.)you have disgraced Jesus.
Well eating pork might make you turn in to a pig…If you lived in crazy world.
I think religions, that like to have a go at us for eating all sorts of food are just jealous. That Jesus makes us so strong that we can;t be corrupted by a food. Not our fault other prophet’s teachings are so false or weak, that their follows aren’t strong enough to eat everything, that the good lord put on this earth.
I sort of understand the saying. " if you eat a chicken you become a chicken" And maybe even at a stretch eating meat makes you a tiger,wolf or a eagle. But how the heck does eating vegetables make you a cow?. And what of us catholics? We eat chicken vegetables and meat. Not to mention bacon. So that must make us, Egg laying winged tigers who’s milk makes delicious ice cream. And when we die you can cut us up and have some scrumptious bacon,
Planten wrote:So I see that by eating swine, you are becoming a swine. That is the natural consequence. By eating the flesh of swine (which was allowed to you by Paul. He took christianity to greece. He wanted to please the Greeks and permitted eating of swine because they loved it too much.)you have disgraced Jesus.
Well eating pork might make you turn in to a pig…If you lived in crazy world.
I think religions, that like to have a go at us for eating all sorts of food are just jealous. That Jesus makes us so strong that we can;t be corrupted by a food. Not our fault other prophet’s teachings are so false or weak, that their follows aren’t strong enough to eat everything, that the good lord put on this earth.
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Melquita
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There are numerous references to alcohol and pork in the Qur’an and Hadith, and it’s pretty difficult to misinterpret what is said about them. So any Muslim who drinks or consumes pork will at least agree that he or she is going against the accepted rules of the religion. However, no matter how hard you look, you’ll never find any specific references to tobacco, because it wouldn’t arrive in the Middle East for another thousand years or so (and remember, nobody had any idea that it was bad for you until relatively recently). You can make a good Islamic argument that it is prohibited, and you can make a good Islamic argument that it is not, even if we should abstain based on health concerns. Judaism takes much the same approach – most Orthodox rabbis believe smoking is treyf, but many Jews smoke and the rule isn’t taken nearly as seriously as other dietary restrictions, because there’s no history of the subject in religious texts and it’s only in the last few decades that the debate has become important.
After all, following the dietary restrictions is primarily about living the way God has stated that he wants us to live, based on what we believe to be His word, and not about living a healthy lifestyle. There are plenty of things that we should or shouldn’t do to be more healthy, but which are not mandated by religious law. (Many Muslims do have crazy ideas about how pigs are filthy creatures or how alcohol is vastly more powerful and damaging than it really is, but these are defense mechanisms more than real religious reasoning as such.)
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FathersKnowBest
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And what then happens when Jesus gives us His very Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity to eat?
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Miserys_Fence
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We could only hope
Despite most people’s misperceptions, pigs are extremely intelligent, loyal, friendly, and are actually very clean if given the choice (meaning, “not scrunched up thousands and thousands into small feedlots”).Miz
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blazerdave
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Sounds like theosis
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RonTheNewJew
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People are, I think, too enamored to the idea that there is a Jewish God, A Christian God and an Islamic God. This is erroneous. God, the Father, with HIs Son and the Holy Spirit gave to Moses the Ten Commandments, plus after they broke the Ten, the additional laws, ordinances, Statutes and Judgements, which explain, in simple language, how to keep the Ten Commandments. That which some call “ceremonial” had only to do with the animal sacrificial system, the earthly Temple and the priests who administered the animal sacrifices with the washings, grain offerings, and other oblations. They ended at Yeshua’s cross. By becoming the Lamb that taketh away the sins of the world, He did not end the Law, Statutes and Judgements, which outline his religion which, if people accept Jesus’ Everlasting Covenant (we have a choice: either we accept it or we don’t), then we keep and observe all things whatsoever He commanded.
He never changed the health-giving dietary laws. Notice that, in the example of Peter, after several times being shown the unclean animals in vision, that the Lord caused the sheet with the unclean animals inside it to be taken up, away from Peter. One has to try to understand the kind of man Peter was: stubborn almost beyond description, quick-tempered, and determined to impose his version of righteousness on everyone if he could.
Jesus, the crowd, Peter and the man whose ear Peter cut off, and that Jesus miraculously caused to be put back in place on the man’s head.
In an earlier place, Peter tried to tell Jesus that he (Peter) would stop Jesus from suffering and death in Jerusalem. Jesus turned to Peter and said “get the behind me, thou satan,”
Peter, because of his stubborness, often times just didn’t get it. He wanted the peace of Jerusalem, but on his terms.
Thus, when God took up the sheet or blanket which contained the unclean animals and told him to eat of them, God then took away the animals. God was telling the heady, stuck-up Peter, that he needed to expand the outreach of the Gospel to non-ethnic, pagan people whom God loved and loves today. God used Peter’s ethnic and religious Jewishness to get Peter’s attention. Peter did, in fact, change and became a great Apostle after that.
He never changed the health-giving dietary laws. Notice that, in the example of Peter, after several times being shown the unclean animals in vision, that the Lord caused the sheet with the unclean animals inside it to be taken up, away from Peter. One has to try to understand the kind of man Peter was: stubborn almost beyond description, quick-tempered, and determined to impose his version of righteousness on everyone if he could.
Jesus, the crowd, Peter and the man whose ear Peter cut off, and that Jesus miraculously caused to be put back in place on the man’s head.
In an earlier place, Peter tried to tell Jesus that he (Peter) would stop Jesus from suffering and death in Jerusalem. Jesus turned to Peter and said “get the behind me, thou satan,”
Peter, because of his stubborness, often times just didn’t get it. He wanted the peace of Jerusalem, but on his terms.
Thus, when God took up the sheet or blanket which contained the unclean animals and told him to eat of them, God then took away the animals. God was telling the heady, stuck-up Peter, that he needed to expand the outreach of the Gospel to non-ethnic, pagan people whom God loved and loves today. God used Peter’s ethnic and religious Jewishness to get Peter’s attention. Peter did, in fact, change and became a great Apostle after that.
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LittleSoldier
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Wow! Good question! If we follow that sort of logic,I suppose we become Jesus.
And if that’s true I question why any Muslim who believes Jesus was a prophet would disagree with *anything *a person who consumes the Holy Eucharist says. After all, if Jesus was a prophet and spoke Truth, those of us who become Jesus speak Truth.
Right?
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seraphime2008
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…
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LtTony
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Hah! The same can be said about Mohammad and Islam.
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LtTony
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Yes, no where near Naik, LOL. Yet you wrote: "*You should remember that you become what you eat. If you eat chicken you become a chicken. If you eat vegetables, you become a cow. If you eat meat, you become a tiger or wolf or eagle.
So I see that by eating swine, you are becoming a swine. That is the natural consequence."*
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blazerdave
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LOL I had some bacon this morning. Now I’m looking for a puddle of mud to wallow in. That’s what pigs do, right? Wallow? Something like that. 
But again - the New Testament explains the meaning and purpose behind the Law. Without the illumination of the Spirit, we cannot understand them. We see that on display here, in a thread that shows how we are rapidly becoming the Pig Man from Seinfeld due to our eating habits.
But again - the New Testament explains the meaning and purpose behind the Law. Without the illumination of the Spirit, we cannot understand them. We see that on display here, in a thread that shows how we are rapidly becoming the Pig Man from Seinfeld due to our eating habits.
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Reuben_J
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Thank you for the (name removed by moderator)ut. It’s informative and I agree with much of it especially the last part.
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LtTony
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BTW, I’d rather rely on St. Peter, who lived with Christ and was entrusted with the keys to heaven, rather than Mohammad, who came along some 600 years after Jesus.
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Reuben_J
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Exactly. Where would the Quran be if it is without Mohammad’s vision? NO Gabriel, no meeting of Jesus, Moses and Adam. No vision of Jerusalem. The Quran would be practically blank if it was not for the ‘vision’. Or was it someone’s hallucination?
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planten
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Tony, please do not repeat or ask me to repeat something for which i am warned. I actually read that in a book. I believe it to be true. You become what you eat. It means you take up the nature, gentle, mild, harsh or shameless nature of the thing that you consume (You includes me also.). That is a fact. You consume clean things, you will remain clean nature.
I did not learn that from Zakir Naik. So please do not make me a follower of Z N. I fully disagree with many of his beliefs.
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amhara
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That’s true, the addiction does impair you.
Did you know that drug addiction is actually condemned in the Bible?
The Bible addresses the use of drugs in the book of Galatians:
‘‘Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.’’ (Galatians 5:19-21)
So, where are the drugs mentioned in this verse? Actually, the word translated “sorcery” is the Greek word pharmakeia, from which we get the English word “pharmacy.” The primary meaning is “the use or the administering of drugs” (usually associated with sorcery or idolatry).
The Bible also has a lot to say on people who get drunk…
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