Christian love for Catholics

[Jesusloveyou]

Hi everyone in this beautiful forum, my name is ivan and I found this forum by accident
or maybe was the plan of God… but anyway, I just wanna give my opinion on the anti- catholic
feelings from the Christians, but first let me say i am sorry for my english is not that good
sometimes, I was a catholic for 20 yrs in mexico, and I was born again in california USA

what I am about to say is with love for you guys, because I was catholic also,
I know many catholics are very good persons, but now in my new walk
with Christ I discover that my problem is not with catholics but rather with the doctrin from
the vatican,

when many christians try to talk to catholics about this issue, the catholics think that we
are anti- catholics, and that far from the true, we just disagree in who do you put your trust
for your salvation, is in the virgin mary?, or the saints? (and we have many in mexico)
or is only in the person of Jesus the Christ?

when I was a catholic I put first every saint before Jesus, and that’s not right,
the word of God said in Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

and also I put the virgin mary before Jesus, and that’s not right also, Jesus is the Only way to the father
and I found out that when I was fill with his holy Spirit when I invite Jesus into my heart,
but before, I had religon from men, doing good works in hope that my salvation was in doing that,
but the true is that Jesus work in the cross, and his resurrection, is that save me, not the vatican,

I know right now you are so angry at me for writing this, and is not my intention, never,
but is the only way you can read the true and be save, please I beg you reconsider your
spiritual position, because at the white throne judgement day, when you stand before Jesus
and when the Book of life open and your name is not found, at that moment is going to be late for you, please I beg you don’t put your trust in what the vatican is saying to you,
please trust Jesus and receive his Spirit on you before is too late
God Bless you and your Family,

love you

ivan

 

[Catholic_Dude]

when I was a catholic I put first every saint before Jesus, and that’s not right, the word of God said in Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

and also I put the virgin mary before Jesus, and that’s not right also, Jesus is the Only way to the father
and I found out that when I was fill with his holy Spirit when I invite Jesus into my heart,
but before, I had religon from men, doing good works in hope that my salvation was in doing that,
but the true is that Jesus work in the cross, and his resurrection, is that save me, not the vatican,

I know right now you are so angry at me for writing this, and is not my intention, never,

Bro, we are not mad at you, but we are sad to see the confusion out there. The Catholic Church never, NEVER teaches we put saints or Mary before Jesus, the Holy Spirit or the Father. The Blessed Trinity is what we put FIRST.

Most people who leave the Catholic Church never really knew what the Catholic Church taught.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Ivan, to be honest, we’ve heard it all before. But maybe God did guide you here. There is one theme of your post in particular I’d like to discuss.

I know many catholics are very good persons, but now in my new walk
with Christ I discover that my problem is not with catholics but rather with the doctrin from
the vatican,

please I beg you don’t put your trust in what the vatican is saying to you,

Many people don’t know what the Vatican actually does teach- even many Catholics neither know nor care what comes out of Rome. Rome does not tell us to put Mary or any other Saint before Jesus. What you think is the Catholic faith, is not in fact the Catholic faith. If you can realize that, you may be a welcome addition to this site.

If you’re only here to fish for converts and attack Catholic beliefs, you will find yourself banned quickly. I pray you did not come here for that purpose, though. May God bless you.

 

[catholic1seeks]

when I was a catholic I put first every saint before Jesus, and that’s not right,
the word of God said in Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

and also I put the virgin mary before Jesus, and that’s not right also, Jesus is the Only way to the father

Ivan, I hate to see that this thread will easily strengthen the thoughts and false notions that many non-Catholics receive from other non-Catholics about the true faith - the Catholic faith.

Let me comment firstly that one’s personal belief system can be corrupt from the orthodox and true Church. Obviously, by your words, you were never a true “Catholic-Christian” in doctrine and true faith. It’s wrong for anyone to put the Virgin Mary and the saints above God. I’m sorry you did. We can all admit some Christians and Catholics do that - but not the Catholic Church.

There is truly one mediator. Jesus Christ is that one mediator. However, interpreting this as you did can lead you into the belief that a person shouldn’t pray to the saints. However, if what was said in Timothy 2:5 was so strict, why do we as Christians ask each other to pray for one another? That’s just what we as Catholics do when we pray to saints - ask the intercession of them.

EDIT:
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something threatening to Christ’s role as mediator.

Ivan, you cannot deny the history. Scriptural evidence is enough to suffice, but look at this from the early Church fathers:

Methodius (A.D. 305)

“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).

 

[Gamera]

Hi, Ivan. Welcome to the site.

… who do you put your trust
for your salvation, is in the virgin mary?, or the saints? (and we have many in mexico)
or is only in the person of Jesus the Christ?

Only in Jesus Christ. That’s what the Catholic Church teaches. I’m glad we agree on this.

…
when I was a catholic I put first every saint before Jesus, and that’s not right

No, it isn’t right. Did you confess this to your priest? He must have explained to you that our savior is Jesus, not any saint.

the word of God said in Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Amen. The Cathecism of the Catholic Church teaches that, too.

I’ve read the Bible cover to cover (have you?), and I’ve read the Catechism of the Catholic Church cover to cover (did you, before you left?). There is no disagreement between the two.

… and also I put the virgin mary before Jesus, and that’s not right also,

Did you confess this sin to your priest? Idolatry is a mortal sin, so a Catholic would have to confess this sin to a priest.

I had religon from men, doing good works in hope that my salvation was in doing that,
but the true is that Jesus work in the cross, and his resurrection, is that save me

But you said you were Catholic. Catholics don’t believe in salvation by works. The Catholic Church condemned “salvation by works” as a heresy called Pelagianism. Catholics believe that no amount of good works could ever “earn” a person’s way into heaven. We believe only Jesus’ shed blood does that. So, you’re saying that you belonged to the Catholic Church but never really believed its teachings?

but is the only way you can read the true and be save, please I beg you reconsider your
spiritual position, because at the white throne judgement day, when you stand before Jesus
and when the Book of life open and your name is not found, at that moment is going to be late for you, please I beg you don’t put your trust in what the vatican is saying to you,
please trust Jesus and receive his Spirit on you before is too late

Can you please explain? Why do you think our names wouldn’t be found in the Book of Life?

 

[Trishie]

Dear Friend, thank you for your good wishes,

The error was in your misunderstanding of the Church’s teaching, not in the Church. In focussing as a former Catholic on praying TO the saints and Mary you were in error. We** must not pray to the saints to grant prayer.** We ask them to pray with us, for us, to intercede for us. As Catholics we pray to God, and only God grants or answers prayers

Why do we ask Mary’s help…and only her help, her intercession. Read the 2nd Chapter of st John, the wedding feast at Cana. Mary requestd Jesus’ help for the family. She requested what amounted to a miracle Jesus protested that it wasn’t yet time. He did it anyway, because she’s asked Him. He didn’t have to give that example in the gospel for all times, that He responded to the intercession of His mother. But He did.

I am so sorry you lost your Catholic faith because you didn’t undertand, and made the saints and Mary your focus instead of Jesus, of God. We ask our heavenly family to pray for us, but only God grants our prayers. The Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit are the only ones that correctly informed and correctly taught Catholics pray to.

Many Protestants either misunderstand or distort our true Catholic teachings,but there are still some Catholics who get the focus wrong…although most dont.

God bless you, Best wishes, Trishie

 

[catholic1seeks]

and I was born again in california USA…

…and I found out that when I was fill with his holy Spirit when I invite Jesus into my heart,
but before, I had religon from men, doing good works in hope that my salvation was in doing that,
but the true is that Jesus work in the cross, and his resurrection, is that save me, not the vatican,

Ivan, every person is filled with the grace of the Holy Spirit at Baptism. It’s not just a selected few who are “born again” when he or she accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Let’s be frank. Good works alone cannot get us into heaven. The Catholic Church does not teach this, has never taught this, and it never will. Such a belief would be heretical. We are justified ‘through **faith in Jesus Christ’ **and through Baptism."

True faith includes the virtues of charity(love) and hope.

Jesus instructed “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). Regeneration (being “born again”) is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:1–22; Eph. 6:11–17).

The different ways of talking about being “born again” describe the various effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being “born of water and the Spirit.” **In Greek, this phrase is, literally, “born of water and Spirit,” indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than “born of water and of the Spirit,” as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit. **

(source: catholic.com/library/Are_Catholics_Born_Again.asp)

In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation when he instructed people to “be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38).

After our Lord’s teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), “Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized” (John 3:22).

We also have the witness of the early Church that John 3:5 refers to baptismal regeneration. This was universally recognized by the early Christians. The Church Fathers were unanimous in teaching this.

The anti-baptismal regeneration position is indefensible. It has no biblical basis. When there is a claim it does, it should be easily refuted. So the answer to the question, “Are Catholics born again?” is yes! Since all Catholics have been baptized, all Catholics have been born again. Catholics should ask Protestants, “Are you born again - the bible way?” If he/she has not been properly water baptized, he has not been born again “the Bible way,” regardless of what he may think.

 

[Gamera]

…Good works alone cannot get us into heaven. The Catholic Church does not teach this, has never taught this, and it never will. Such a belief would be heretical.

It already is heretical. “Salvation by works” is a heresy called Pelagianism, which the Catholic Church identified and condemned over 1,000 years ago.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Ivan, I hate to see that this thread will easily strengthen the thoughts and false notions that many non-Catholics receive from other non-Catholics about the true faith - the Catholic faith.

Let me comment firstly that one’s personal belief system can be corrupt compared to that of the orthodox and true Church. Obviously, by your words, you were never a true “Catholic-Christian” in doctrine and true faith. It’s wrong for anyone to put the Virgin Mary and the saints above God. I’m sorry you did. We can all admit some Christians and Catholics do that - but not the Catholic Church.

There is truly one mediator. Jesus Christ is that one mediator. However, interpreting this as you did can lead you into the belief that a person shouldn’t pray to the saints. However, if what was said in Timothy 2:5 was so strict, why do we as Christians ask each other to pray for one another? That’s just what we as Catholics do when we pray to saints - ask the intercession of them.

EDIT:
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something threatening to Christ’s role as mediator.

Ivan, you cannot deny the history. Scriptural evidence is enough to suffice, but look at this from the early Church fathers:

Methodius (A.D. 305)

“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).

 

[catholic1seeks]

Ivan, much of this can be overwhelming.

There are many lies out there about the Catholic Church. You need to reaffirm the fact that before the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s, all of the Chrisians believed similarly (…talking about Catholics AND Orthodox Christians). And once you get past the schism that led to today’s Eastern Orthodox, you’ll see that the historic Church of the Apostles - the one, holy, catholic, and apoostolic Church - truly is the Catholic Church.

*Remeber, Catholic means universal.

…look at all of the Protestants groups. Can we hold that there is not division? NO! Or should we claim that there is ONE Church? YES!

 

[catholic1seeks]

It already is heretical. “Salvation by works” is a heresy called Pelagianism, which the Catholic Church identified and condemned over 1,000 years ago.

I know it is. That’s why I described it as “would be heretical”.

I’m careful with my words ever since I asked in a poll, “Which protestant group do you find to be the most heretical?” (p.s. I understand that the phrasing of that question IS rude, but it can be reconciled with what heretical means.)

 

[Gamera]

I know it is. That’s why I described it as “would be heretical”.

I’m careful with my words ever since I asked in a poll, “Which protestant group do you find to be the most heretical?” (p.s. I understand that the phrasing of that question IS rude, but it can be reconciled with what heretical means.)

Ah. Gotcha. I had misunderstood.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Is this helping any, Ivan?​

**This website is excellent. You’ve come to the right site. APOLOGETICS - defense of the faith. You’ll meet the truth head on, in an easy and nice way, here. **

Here are some articles, here on Catholic Answers, that could reconcile some of your concerns that were in your post.

Concerning Mary & the Saints: click here

Concerning Salvation: click here

Concerning the Church: click here