Christian Prayer

[latinmasslover]

Who told you this? Jesus the Christ himself?

Perhaps you might take a stroll through the Gospels. Jesus on numerous occasions “modified” or “altered” his style of preaching toward the particular crowd or individual he was addressing.

Furthermore, when the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles on Pentecost, they all went out and preached in “tongues”.

Biblical precedent for “varying” forms of spreading the word is clear. If Christ can change his style, and the Apostles can preach in tongues, then the Church passed down from them may certainly adopt different “styles” of doing things as well.

You mean they used the vernacluar in preaching?

The LOTH is Catholic prayer - you don’t adopt a protestant form for Catholic prayer (or worship, for that matter).

 

[Brother_John]

You are very right that we are all Catholics. There are many prayers written after Vatican II that are useful. However, the LOTH is nothing compared to the breviary. But, unfortunatly, it is an approved text of the Church. But for now, it is all I have. When I get the preconciliar breviary, I will only pray the LOTH if I really have to. I have the TLM, I only go to the Novus ORdo when I have to. But you make good points. I didn’t mean to sound divisive. We are all part of the one Roman Rite as it says in Summorum Pontificum.

Are you referring to the 4 volume LOTH, or the single volume?

 

[TradCatholic12]

I use the one volume, but the four volume would apply also.

 

[Brother_John]

You are very right that we are all Catholics. There are many prayers written after Vatican II that are useful. However, the LOTH is nothing compared to the breviary. But, unfortunatly, it is an approved text of the Church. But for now, it is all I have. When I get the preconciliar breviary, I will only pray the LOTH if I really have to. I have the TLM, I only go to the Novus ORdo when I have to. But you make good points. I didn’t mean to sound divisive. We are all part of the one Roman Rite as it says in Summorum Pontificum.

What could be unfortunate about approved Catholic prayer?

 

[latinmasslover]

Which Little Office do you use? The Pre-Vatican II or Post Vatican II? I want the Baronius Press edition. To answer your question. I feel that the Liturgy of the Hours departs from any previous edition tremediously. The translation is poor, but it still is valid and, sadly, the Ordinary Form of the Divine Office. But, if it is all I have, what am I to do, because I find the Divine Office to be so spiritually enriching. But, I would choose the pre-vatican II one in a heart beat. I follow the 1962 calendar though, so that is an issue. I have contemplated to just stop praying it until the pre-vatican II edition comes out. I wish they came in a one volume edition though.

I don’t know of a post V-II Little Office; I ordered mine from Angelus Press.
One big reason why I don’t want to pray the LOTH is because the translation of the Psalms is a little off . I’m not saying the translation is wrong, but I’d just prefer to commit one form to memory.

 

[TradCatholic12]

I don’t mean it cannot be of value to the one who prays it. However, I think it could be much more rich. Personally I don’t think they should have reformed the breviary. The ICEL translation also does not help.

 

[Brother_John]

I use the one volume, but the four volume would apply also.

I’ve been using the 4 volume. My pastor, while “showing me the ropes”, volunteered that first time participants who started in the Lent/Easter volume would have a tough go of it. “Jumping in with both feet” as he put it.

It’s my understanding that the single volume eliminates most of the daily prayer except morning and evening.

 

[TradCatholic12]

I don’t know of a post V-II Little Office; I ordered mine from Angelus Press.
One big reason why I don’t want to pray the LOTH is because the translation of the Psalms is a little off . I’m not saying the translation is wrong, but I’d just prefer to commit one form to memory.

I have a Little Office and it says it was revised to comform to the revised Divine Office.

 

[latinmasslover]

I have a Little Office and it says it was revised to comform to the revised Divine Office.

Oh. Well, on the bright side, the Virgin wasn’t totally removed! Mine isn’t post. Angelus Press, $24.95 I believe. (Yikes, maybe it was $34.95? Or I’m just confusing it with another book). Anyway, I think Leaflet has the older version now as well.

 

[TradCatholic12]

Oh. Well, on the bright side, the Virgin wasn’t totally removed! Mine isn’t post. Angelus Press, $24.95 I believe. (Yikes, maybe it was $34.95? Or I’m just confusing it with another book). Anyway, I think Leaflet has the older version now as well.

Thanks for the information. I think I will purchase that in the near future.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Many refer to themselves as “Traditional Catholics” so they’re not confused with the modern “Catholic” who can’t separate Christ from World. Excuse us for wanting reverence in the presence of God Almighty.

Let’s just all stay in Lala Land where there is no division and everything is perfect.

Watered down invocations are Protestant, not Catholic. That’s why he’s asking about post V-II prayers being moral. There is also the issue of the calendar. FYI: Pope Benedict does not oppose using the Older one.

“What’s next?” Probably Catholic parishes going Wiccan; we’ll all go up to receive Holy Communion in the buff because, after all, “that’s what it was like in the beginning.”

I think you are way over-reacting here. The OP asked if it was “wrong” to use the Christian Prayer Book because he is a Traditional Catholic. The simple answer is NO. The way he worded the question implied a division in his mind about the unity of the Church. He has acknowledged that he did not mean to sound divisive and that we are all Catholic. There is absolutely nothing “immoral” about Christian Prayer (the book).

As for “watered down invocations”–let me clue you in on something–God would prefer a simple “I love you, Jesus” done with a contrite, loving, humble and submissive heart than a whole day’s worth of the Hours done without charity. It’s all in the attitude.

 

[latinmasslover]

I think you are way over-reacting here. The OP asked if it was “wrong” to use the Christian Prayer Book because he is a Traditional Catholic. The simple answer is NO. The way he worded the question implied a division in his mind about the unity of the Church. He has acknowledged that he did not mean to sound divisive and that we are all Catholic. There is absolutely nothing “immoral” about Christian Prayer (the book).

As for “watered down invocations”–let me clue you in on something–God would prefer a simple “I love you, Jesus” done with a contrite, loving, humble and submissive heart than a whole day’s worth of the Hours done without charity. It’s all in the attitude.

The response you quoted was not to the OP, but Brother John.

“Watered down invocations” are not the same as simple, humble prayers. There’s a BIG difference; I was not referring to short and loving prayers to God, but to formal Catholic prayers that lack Catholic clarity.

 

[Brother_John]

I think you are way over-reacting here. The OP asked if it was “wrong” to use the Christian Prayer Book because he is a Traditional Catholic. The simple answer is NO. The way he worded the question implied a division in his mind about the unity of the Church. He has acknowledged that he did not mean to sound divisive and that we are all Catholic. There is absolutely nothing “immoral” about Christian Prayer (the book).

As for “watered down invocations”–let me clue you in on something–God would prefer a simple “I love you, Jesus” done with a contrite, loving, humble and submissive heart than a whole day’s worth of the Hours done without charity. It’s all in the attitude.

I agree 100%. A sincere “Thank you Lord, for the goodies” at lunch is every bit as good as a rote-blabbed “Bless us, O Lord…”

My Fundamentalist sister drives me nuts. At every family gathering, she takes it upon herself to pray, and it invariably goes something like “I just want to thank you Lord…” and then she goes blank, searching for something to say what she’s thankful for…then she says again “…and I just want to thank you Lord…” for about 5 to 6 verses’ worth. Like it’s all some big show.

Say what you mean, and mean what you say. That is what is in your heart.

 

[CB_Catholic]

The response you quoted was not to the OP, but Brother John.

“Watered down invocations” are not the same as simple, humble prayers. There’s a BIG difference; I was not referring to short and loving prayers to God, but to formal Catholic prayers that lack Catholic clarity.

No the response was to the OP who asked if it was wrong for a Traditional Catholic to use the post-Vat. II Christian Prayer book.

What lacks Catholic clarity in Christian Prayer, btw?

 

[TradCatholic12]

Christian Prayer seems to have mostly Politically Correct prayers.

 

[latinmasslover]

No the response was to the OP who asked if it was wrong for a Traditional Catholic to use the post-Vat. II Christian Prayer book.

What lacks Catholic clarity in Christian Prayer, btw?

You quoted my post (#19) which was a response to Brother John.

Praying for the coversion to the One True Church isn’t a priority, modern phrases, etc.

 

[Brother_John]

Christian Prayer seems to have mostly Politically Correct prayers.

I am puzzled by this remark. I have been using the 4 volume set of the LOTH. Today, I also acquired the “Christian Prayer” version.

From what I have seen looking at the readings for today, they are identical. So how is “Christian Prayer” “Politically Correct” in relation to the LOTH ?

 

[latinmasslover]

I agree 100%. A sincere “Thank you Lord, for the goodies” at lunch is every bit as good as a rote-blabbed “Bless us, O Lord…”

My Fundamentalist sister drives me nuts. At every family gathering, she takes it upon herself to pray, and it invariably goes something like “I just want to thank you Lord…” and then she goes blank, searching for something to say what she’s thankful for…then she says again “…and I just want to thank you Lord…” for about 5 to 6 verses’ worth. Like it’s all some big show.

Say what you mean, and mean what you say. That is what is in your heart.

Did you misread my quote also? Nobody is saying that short and simple prayers are wrong. Again, watered down invocations are not the same a simple and humble.

You are right: telling the Lord nothing but “Thank you for keeping me safe while I slept” is better than going through morning prayers praying for the “fools who don’t take the time to pray the Office like holy me.” However, you imply that because others pray the Office they must be “idle repetitioners,” which is very unfair.

We’re talking about the Church not including in her official prayerbook the conversion of all non Catholics, of being “politically correct,” which is wrong. Making public statements is a little different, but the prayerbook for the Church should reflect the Church, not the modern world.

I’m not saying the LOTH is wrong, whole and entire, and that any who pray it are damned; but that some invocations are not quite up to par.

Is it possible that your sister just wants to set a good example and make the prayer as nice as possible? Nothing wrong with formality.

 

[Brother_John]

However, you imply that because others pray the Office they must be “idle repetitioners,” which is very unfair.

’scuse me? I do the LOTH myself. I find it difficult sometimes, but I do it nonetheless, and not so I can lord it over others.

We’re talking about the Church not including in her official prayerbook the conversion of all non Catholics, of being “politically correct,” which is wrong. Making public statements is a little different, but the prayerbook for the Church should reflect the Church, not the modern world.

Me no savvy. Please clarify? How is any church supposed to save the souls of people in a modern world if they refuse to acknowledge said modern world?

I’m not saying the LOTH is wrong, whole and entire, and that any who pray it are damned; but that some invocations are not quite up to par.

By your judgement, or that of the Church who produced said LOTH?

Is it possible that your sister just wants to set a good example and make the prayer as nice as possible? Nothing wrong with formality

For the most part, she wants to rub her fundamentalism in the faces of the rest of her Catholic family (and let’s be honest, Catholics ARE known for rote prayers like “Bless us O Lord…”)
.

 

[latinmasslover]

Brother_John:
I know that you pray it from previous statements. Some of your posts *seemed *(to me anyway) to imply the Protestant theology that if the prayer’s been written, it’s useless.

By modernizing I only meant the ideas, not the language. I personally prefer the Old English, but that’s just me. Some Catholic thought is worded in such a way as to not always be clear. I’ll find my Christian Prayerbook and give some examples in the next day or so. I’m not saying they contain heresy or anything like that, but that some of the invocations are more people pleasing than concise. Again, I’ll provide examples soon.

Unfortunately many Catholics think that reciting from prayerbooks does it all. It doesn’t. If we look to the examples of the Saints (referring to the Religious) they were very faithful to the formal prayers of the Church (not just reciting the prayers but *praying *the prayers) and they spoke to Him one on one. Nothing wrong with the “Bless us O Lord…” and others as long as it’s not just a recitation. I’ll pray for your sister’s conversion.