Christian Seders?

[Diana_Catherine]

Well I was making no suggestion of going or not going, simply laying out a topic for discussion. I have two specific problems with your theory (Admittedly, before I listen to the link):

1. Is the Seder to look forward to the coming of the Messiah? I was under the impression it was in continuance of the original feast designed to commemorate struggle and bondage in Egypt, and and to give thanks for being spared by the angle of death. If it was simply about the Messiah, wouldn’t it be slightly unusual for Jesus to celebrate it himself?
2. Even if it is about looking forward to the coming of the Messiah, do we not, as Christians, “joyfully await his coming”? Does the sacrifice of the mass, which primarily a commemoration of his sacrifice at Calvary, really fill that role? If it did, wouldn’t the loud, “happy-clappy” type of worship we see so much criticism on here be perfectly appropriate?

I am probably not the best to answer those questions, I will just give you my understanding and if someone else has better answers then that is good.

The bondage in Egypt is a “type of”. It truly happened but it also symbolizes our bondage to sin. When the Egyptians were freed from bondage it was also a prefiguration of our freedom from the bondage of sin. So, yes, the Passover was a celebration of their being freed from the angel of death but it was also a looking forward to the one who would come or who was promised to them through Adam after the deception in the garden.

As far as I understand, Jesus fulfilled all the laws so would celebrate the Passover and during the last supper or the celebration of the Passover that night, he said he was instituting a New Covenant. Also at the Passover, he was the sacrificial lamb.

Again, the Mass is a commemoration but it is primarily, “the sacrifice”. It is us going to Calvary. It is the one time event that covers all time. It is us partaking of the sacrifice of Jesus because of our sins. Joyful at mass yes, happy clappy, no. It is a celebration but if we let everyone just get happy clappy as they please then it would be an everything goes and since the church is One (as in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic) we follow the ways of celebrating as laid our by the Church.

Hope that helps. Not sure if I can explain things well.

 

[Alfonsus]

I think we are need to distinguish. While the institution of the Eucharist is taken place within Seder meal, it is not just a Seder meal. It is at the same time, the fulfillment of the Feast of Atonement. Seder is a family business, while the rite regarding Atonement a priestly business. Those two merged together in Mass, where the minister is priestly.

For those of Hebrew lineage, Seder is the commemoration of their history as a nation, liberated from Egypt. While the liberation from Egypt is a type of a greater even in history, that is of the redemption of the world, it does not nullify the fact that the Hebrews were released from Egypt and their identity as the bearer of covenants culminating in Christ. We gentile Christian more often fail to understand the importance of the covenants lived by the Hebrews (including Hebrew Christians/Catholics) and have tendency to “Gentilize” the Hebrew Christians.

 

[Lucky7]

Uggh. This is a tough topic for me. I struggle with it as a Jewish convert to Catholicism.

On the one hand I see it as partaking in our Jewish roots (commemorating a significant part of the Bible which is still our Bible) and therefore see nothing wrong with it. Most of the seder is about the story of Exodus…no problem (albeit minus any mention of Christ in the prayers). OTOH, part of the Seder (the end of it) is opening the door for Elijah who is to announce the Messiah because for the Jews he has not come yet. How are we not partaking in a ritual that goes against our faith? The last couple of years I have not been able to share the Seder with my family, but down deep inside I wonder whether that is something I should be doing.

That was in reference to a Jewish Seder. Now, a Christian Seder…why pray tell? It is completely unnecessary and I do think that some Jews would take offense to it. At the very least I think it would get a raised eyebrow. Besides, if it isn’t an actual seder (with the Elijah part) then it really isn;t a seder, now is it? Like others have said, we have the Mass. We should be looking forward not behind.

 

[Alfonsus]

But not all Hebrew Catholics think that way.
For a start, see the Association of Hebrew Catholics.

 

[Phemie]

The USCCB has spoken on this topic. From 1988’s God’s Mercy Endures Forever: Guidelines on the Presentation of Jews and Judaism in Catholic Preaching

Pastoral Activity during Holy Week and the Easter Season
28. It is becoming familiar in many parishes and Catholic homes to participate in a Passover Seder during Holy Week. This practice can have educational and spiritual value.It is wrong, however, to “baptize” the Seder by ending it with New Testament readings about the Last Supper or, worse, turn it into a prologue to the Eucharist. Such mergings distort both traditions. The following advice should prove useful:

When Christians celebrate this sacred feast among themselves, the rites of the haggadah for the seder should be respected in all their integrity. The seder . . . should be celebrated in a dignified manner and with sensitivity to those to whom the seder truly belongs. The primary reason why Christians may celebrate the festival of Passover should be to acknowledge common roots in the history of salvation. Any sense of “restaging” the Last Supper of the Lord Jesus should be avoided … The rites of the Triduum are the [Church’s] annual memorial of the events of Jesus’ dying and rising (Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy Newsletter, March 1980, p. 12).

Seders arranged at or in cooperation with local synagogues are encouraged.
29. Also encouraged are joint memorial services commemorating the victims of the Shoah (Holocaust). These should be prepared for with catechetical and adult education programming to ensure a proper spirit of shared reverence. Addressing the Jewish community of Warsaw, Pope John Paul II stressed the uniqueness and significance of Jewish memory of the Shoah: “More than anyone else, it is precisely you who have become this saving warning. I think that in this sense you continue your particular vocation, showing yourselves to be still the heirs of that election to which God is faithful. This is your mission in the contemporary world before . . . all of humanity” (Warsaw, June 14, 1987). On the Sunday closest to Yom ha Shoah, Catholics should pray for the victims of the Holocaust and their survivors.

 

[Lucky7]

The USCCB has spoken on this topic. From 1988’s God’s Mercy Endures Forever: Guidelines on the Presentation of Jews and Judaism in Catholic Preaching

Do they specifically discuss the part with Elijah?

 

[meltzerboy]

Well I was making no suggestion of going or not going, simply laying out a topic for discussion. I have two specific problems with your theory (Admittedly, before I listen to the link):

1. Is the Seder to look forward to the coming of the Messiah? I was under the impression it was in continuance of the original feast designed to commemorate struggle and bondage in Egypt, and and to give thanks for being spared by the angle of death. If it was simply about the Messiah, wouldn’t it be slightly unusual for Jesus to celebrate it himself?
2. Even if it is about looking forward to the coming of the Messiah, do we not, as Christians, “joyfully await his coming”? Does the sacrifice of the mass, which primarily a commemoration of his sacrifice at Calvary, really fill that role? If it did, wouldn’t the loud, “happy-clappy” type of worship we see so much criticism on here be perfectly appropriate?

The purpose of the Seder is to relive the narrative of the Exodus in the present. This retelling is performed as if we of the current generation were actually brought out of bondage by G-d. Thus the oral tradition of the flight to freedom is passed on from one generation to the next and Judaism becomes a living, renewed religion rather than merely one which recounts ancient stories. Therefore, by extension, the Seder is in complete empathy with all oppressed, imprisoned, persecuted people who are currently enslaved and not yet free. The Seder is not explicitly a looking forward to the Messiah and the Messianic era although it does evoke the celebratory theme of “Next year in Jerusalem,” which may be related to the in-gathering of the Jewish tribes who are still living in the Diaspora and a Messianic promise of return to Israel for the Jewish people.

 

[Bill_Martin]

We always did when I was growing up. It’s a great tradition.

 

[Lucky7]

The purpose of the Seder is to relive the narrative of the Exodus in the present. This retelling is performed as if we of the current generation were actually brought out of bondage by G-d. Thus the oral tradition of the flight to freedom is passed on from one generation to the next and Judaism becomes a living, renewed religion rather than merely one which recounts ancient stories. Therefore, by extension, the Seder is in complete empathy with all oppressed, imprisoned, persecuted people who are currently enslaved and not yet free. The Seder is not explicitly a looking forward to the Messiah and the Messianic era although it does evoke the celebratory theme of “Next year in Jerusalem,” which may be related to the in-gathering of the Jewish tribes who are still living in the Diaspora and a Messianic promise of return to Israel for the Jewish people.

What about the “Cup of Elijah” portion of the Seder? Does your family do this?

 

[meltzerboy]

What about the “Cup of Elijah” portion of the Seder? Does your family do this?

Yes, and that part does express belief in a final redemption during the Messianic age. The opening of the door is also customary to express complete trust in G-d that we, as a people, will not be slaughtered by our oppressors. However, the fifth cup of wine from which Elijah is supposed to drink is but one aspect of the Seder and does not represent by itself the entire essence of the ritual celebration, which focuses on the past tribulations of the Jewish people, the present gratefulness to G-d for our liberation and concern toward those who are not liberated, as well as the future redemption when the Messiah arrives.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Not Catholic tradition or custom