Christian Unity might be possible if Christians had any interest in achieving it but, unfortunately, most Christians don’t consider Christian Unity to

[mark_a]

Thanks, mark. Do you have any thoughts about the process itself? Do you, for example, think that Catholics ought to lead from the front and try to unite with the Orthodox or do you think it’s up to “Protestants” to unite amongst themselves and then send a delegation to Rome…

Any ideas about how unity might be brought about?

Curiously,
Mick

I think that the most pastoral thing for the Catholic Church to do keep dialog going with anyone who wants it; but special attention, effort, and sacrifice should given to Orthodoxy and true Apostolic Christianity.

The vast majority of Protestantism seems happy to be separated. It is a badge of honor for them. In my opinion, so be it.

 

[mark_a]

Any ideas about how unity might be brought about?

Curiously,
Mick

And here’s what JPII thought about it all.

 

[SSTeacher]

And here’s what JPII thought about it all.

Thanks, mark, but I sense you might be missing the point of this thread. I was hoping to read some of your thoughts.

Hopefully,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

That last bit is a fine ecumenical sentiment. But surely you must have considered your question objectively. Namely, that other people would be looking at you and saying that the Eastern Orthodox are an impediment to unity because, to them, you are one of “these other idiots who won’t drop their pride and accept what I believe to be true because what I believe to be true is the absolute truth without any mixture of error”

Absolutely, people will probably say something along those lines. But provided that I don’t adopt the same attitude in response, there’s every prospect of progress. The easiest trap to fall into is for me to assume that the other guy – the one who hasn’t reached the same conclusion as I have – has reached a different conclusion on purpose. If those trapped inside that mindset are by the grace of God able to break out of it and allow for the possibility that the other guy hasn’t taken a different position out of spite or culpable stupidity, productive dialogue is possible, don’t you think?

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[dzheremi]

I was wondering what those still in the ACOE would think, but oh well…it’s still interesting to read that story. I wonder, though, if we should automatically rejoice at it. As one person (an Assyrian, perhaps?) wrote in the comments section of the article linked by Rolltide:

“Consider! These Eastern church communities including Constantinople are in danger of disappearing. Joining up with Rome is their last hope for survival. Last year when I visited the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Istanbul on the Feast of the Dormition, people begged me to tell Xtians in the West that we are here and to come to see us. Its all very sad.”

“Joining up with Rome is their last hope for survival…” That makes my heart sink, and obviously not because I see anything bad about joining up with Rome (heck, I did it). Given the amount of time spent fretting over how to get rid of Latinizations (which perhaps seems like quite a lot because I’m an outsider, but is still something I’ve read about more than a few times in Eastern Catholic writings), and the disarray that we find in Western Catholicism in many ways, I have to wonder what exactly “unity” would mean in a case like this.

What did you mean by “unity” when you started this thread, Mick?

 

[cheese_sdc]

Absolutely, people will probably say something along those lines. But provided that I don’t adopt the same attitude in response, there’s every prospect of progress. The easiest trap to fall into is for me to assume that the other guy – the one who hasn’t reached the same conclusion as I have – has reached a different conclusion on purpose. If those trapped inside that mindset are by the grace of God able to break out of it and allow for the possibility that the other guy hasn’t taken a different position out of spite or culpable stupidity, productive dialogue is possible, don’t you think?

Respectfully,
Mick

True.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I think that unity within Christianity is possible. I believe that there is a real good chance of Catholic and Orthodox putting aside the wounds of the past and being able to come back to union. The real problem is going to come in the west with all the different Protestants. Some branches of the Lutheran and Anglican and ever some Methodist and Presbyterians would have little to know difficulty in reuniting with the Catholic and Orthodox, but there are others that look at the Catholic and Orthodox as Idle worshipers bond for hell and there is the biggest thing stopping unity in the west.

 

[SSTeacher]

What did you mean by “unity” when you started this thread, Mick?

Doctrinal and administrative unity: complete alignment with everybody in agreement in the Lord. And I hoped to read posts wherein Christians declared that they wanted unity, believed God could bring it about, and suggested details as to how they thought unity might be achieved. What I hoped not to read were defeatist or negative comments.

Comprehensively,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

I think that unity within Christianity is possible. I believe that there is a real good chance of Catholic and Orthodox putting aside the wounds of the past and being able to come back to union. The real problem is going to come in the west with all the different Protestants. Some branches of the Lutheran and Anglican and ever some Methodist and Presbyterians would have little to know difficulty in reuniting with the Catholic and Orthodox, but there are others that look at the Catholic and Orthodox as Idle worshipers bond for hell and there is the biggest thing stopping unity in the west.

I agree.

Agreeably,
Mick

 

[dzheremi]

Doctrinal and administrative unity: complete alignment with everybody in agreement in the Lord. And I hoped to read posts wherein Christians declared that they wanted unity, believed God could bring it about, and suggested details as to how they thought unity might be achieved. What I hoped not to read were defeatist or negative comments.

Comprehensively,
Mick

Hmm. I certainly hope the “defeatest or negative comments” isn’t with reference to the post you are responding to, Mick. I only asked that question because my idea of unity is not a world where everyone worships as a Latin or a Greek or what have you. As a future Orthodox (God willing!), I’m sure you can appreciate that idea, as the Orthodox Church is nothing if not multi-cultural! (And in the real sense of the word; not the false “let’s everyone pretend as though it’s wrong to have consistent teachings and morals, because that might cause conflict” version of the concept that the secular world promotes!)

To get back on topic a bit: How would you answer the arguments made against the idea of ecumenism put forth by Orthodox websites such as this one, Mick? While unity with the Orthodox is definitely #1 on my list of things that I want for the world of Christianity, I must say I agree with the article in so far as it makes a distinction between physical unity and unity of theology. Physical unity doesn’t mean anything, really. But with that said, then what other option is there? This is what I meant with that bit about “the destruction of one or the other Church” in my first post…isn’t that ultimately what we’re talking about? Even if we don’t particularly relish the idea?

 

[Tezza]

I should like to see some other way of viewing things, wherein the dignity of the individual and his tradition is given primacy over who gets to control who. But that is a dream that is not realized today, nor has it been realized at any point in the past 1500 years or so.

I see what you’re saying here. I guess I come from the place of loving the scriptures where Jesus instructed Peter to care for His sheep, for desiring to follow Jesus to the best of my ability, to trust Him with my life, and in turn trust the shepherd He left behind. I don’t really come from a place of control over others, though I know many see it that way.
One person’s control may be another persons care, kind of like a protective parent

I also think it is beautiful that there are different rites, including Anglican and Hebrew (which I just discovered!). Distinction and unity, IMHO.

It is sad that human weakness, most especially pride, gets in the way. But it may not be the underlying theme of every disagreement. Overall, if one believes that Jesus left a shepherd for his Church, how do you not proclaim it as good news with gratitude? How do you pretend it doesn’t matter, that it is insignificant? I don’t expect everyone to believe it, but if one does, can you fault them for defending it?

Anywho, it was on my heart, so I thought I’d share.

Peace in Christ,
Teri

 

[Tezza]

Hi Teri. You’re right. There has always been debate in the Church and I suppose there always will be.

What I mean by Christian Unity i.e. what I understand by such a term is not necessarily the understanding of the person next to me. So it’s clear that the term Christian Unity needs to be defined and agreed upon. Your questions are good ones. They’re useful, too, because they reveal how little consideration we ordinary Christians put into the concept of being one. We have to query the parameters before we can even begin a discussion.

Agreed – but respectful and productive dialogue is possible on a one–to–one basis once each person understands his or her presuppositions and is able to articulate them speedily and without discomfort or difficulty. If two people can do that then they are both open to guidance by the Holy Spirit. But if they just bait each other and insult each other and sneer at each other, they render the Holy Spirit powerless. That’s really the point I had in mind when I wrote my Opening Post.

Indeed. The obstacle to unity becomes apparent when a Catholic who believes what you have stated above takes it upon himself or herself to condemn a non–Catholic on the basis of the non–Catholic’s beliefs.

No, we must not compromise truth. To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” But he also prayed to the Father that we would be brought to complete unity. So we should at least think about it. I’m suggesting no more than that.

Respectfully,
Mick

Thanks for your thoughtful response!

I’ve been thinking more about unity since you asked the question. For some reason my mind went to the temperaments. Are you familiar with them?

I was reading over them and the description of the prayer life of each (generalizations, I know, but overall very insightful). Some felt very comfortable with structured prayer, such as the rosary. Some were more comfortable with connecting to God in nature, very unstructured. We are all just so varied, even in how we know God.

So I was talking to God about it. "Lord, how can you expect someone who knows you better outdoors to be “fed” in Mass every Sunday when it doesn’t “speak” to them? I mean, you designed some of us that way. And there are those who really struggle with obedience. Why would you have them struggle so, expecting them to be submit to an authoritarian hierarchy?

My head was just swimming. So I had to ask myself how I would have God’s Church look like? Do I really think I know better, what could please everyone? Is there something about the earthly Kingdom that transcends all of our desires and emotions that is meant to touch us spiritually? Mass stopped being boring for me after that conversation

So where does unity fit in? I’d much rather talk to a fellow Christian about how Jesus is working in my life than whether or not baptism is salvific. I would never lead with, “I’m part of the one, true Church. Where do you worship?” I know the Holy Spirit is not limited and I like to see how He is working in other faith communities. But if I’m asked to defend my Catholic faith, I will do so, proclaiming the hope and joy I have through Jesus and the Church. And I will pray that unity may be achieved. Heck, since Jesus prayed for it, certainly it will come to fruition:thumbsup: (whether this world or the next )

Peace in Christ,
Teri

 

[mark_a]

Thanks, mark, but I sense you might be missing the point of this thread. I was hoping to read some of your thoughts.

Hopefully,
Mick

That was post #21.

 

[SSTeacher]

Hmm. I certainly hope the “defeatist or negative comments” isn’t with reference to the post you are responding to, Mick. I only asked that question because my idea of unity is not a world where everyone worships as a Latin or a Greek or what have you.

No, I wasn’t taking a cheap shot at you. I’m truly sorry if that’s how I came across. Please forgive me for my poor choice of words. I was just reflecting upon the thoughts I had when I typed out my Original Post. Actually, I don’t think I’ve yet seen any of the kind of comments I was hoping not to see (I was thinking more about presentation rather than content – you know, the tone and attitude that some posters adopt).

As a future Orthodox (God willing!), I’m sure you can appreciate that idea, as the Orthodox Church is nothing if not multi-cultural! (And in the real sense of the word; not the false “let’s everyone pretend as though it’s wrong to have consistent teachings and morals, because that might cause conflict” version of the concept that the secular world promotes!)

I do appreciate that idea.

To get back on topic a bit: How would you answer the arguments made against the idea of ecumenism put forth by Orthodox websites such as this one, Mick?

Fascinating article. The argument isn’t against a false ecumenism but against ecumenism, which is viewed as a “fatal heresy.” So it’s implied that virtually any contact with non–Orthodox is to be thought of as dangerous. In tone, the article sounds very much like the sort of utterances I’ve heard from members of the Society of Saint Pius X. Still, the article, which is completely negative and full of doom and gloom from start to finish, is an endorsement that the title of this thread is rooted in reality. Since the author ignores the prayer of Jesus in John 17, she doesn’t have to offer any suggestion to Orthodox Christians as to how they should live out their faith in the real world. Her recommendation is that Orthodox Christians keep to themselves and preserve the theological purity of their faith. My response, if I’m pressed to make one, would be to ask whether she wasn’t perhaps elevating theology to a level higher than that it deserved to be. Other than that, I’d pass on and give it no more thought. As Paul Newman declared so articulately in Hombre, about the others: “They say what they want. I say what I want.”

While unity with the Orthodox is definitely #1 on my list of things that I want for the world of Christianity, I must say I agree with the article in so far as it makes a distinction between physical unity and unity of theology. Physical unity doesn’t mean anything, really. But with that said, then what other option is there? This is what I meant with that bit about “the destruction of one or the other Church” in my first post…isn’t that ultimately what we’re talking about? Even if we don’t particularly relish the idea?

I, too, want the East and the West to be one. I think you’re right to be cautious and I certainly wouldn’t propose that any person should compromise truth, as he or she understands that truth to be. But I would venture to suggest that the way to make some progress might be to take a closer look at the theology that apparently separates us. We don’t necessarily need to wait for our leaders to do that, do we? What’s to stop any of us prayerfully considering some of the difficulties and then giving thought as to how we might tackle them if we were given that responsibility? It seems to me that the minimum benefit for anybody who undertook that task in all seriousness would be an increase in both knowledge and wisdom.

Fraternally,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Thanks for your thoughtful response!

You’re welcome.

I’ve been thinking more about unity since you asked the question. For some reason my mind went to the temperaments. Are you familiar with them? I was reading over them and the description of the prayer life of each (generalizations, I know, but overall very insightful). Some felt very comfortable with structured prayer, such as the rosary. Some were more comfortable with connecting to God in nature, very unstructured. We are all just so varied, even in how we know God.

I’m greatly encouraged by your words here because it seems that we’re thinking along the same lines. We are indeed so varied and different, even in how we know God. As you’re thinking along these lines why not revisit/check out *** Sacred Pathways***, a book authored by Gary Thomas? It may perhaps be more helpful than The Temperaments. No need to purchase the book (although it is an engaging read, particularly if one hasn’t given a lot of thought to how different God has made us all) because there are currently 18 reviews on Amazon, which probably provide enough food for thought.

So I was talking to God about it. "Lord, how can you expect someone who knows you better outdoors to be “fed” in Mass every Sunday when it doesn’t “speak” to them? I mean, you designed some of us that way. And there are those who really struggle with obedience. Why would you have them struggle so, expecting them to be submit to an authoritarian hierarchy?

There’s enough material in the above for a very lengthy discussion!

My head was just swimming. So I had to ask myself how I would have God’s Church look like? Do I really think I know better, what could please everyone? Is there something about the earthly Kingdom that transcends all of our desires and emotions that is meant to touch us spiritually? Mass stopped being boring for me after that conversation

The word that jumps out for me in the above is “transcends.” It’s perhaps a word that we would do well to keep in mind when we’re thinking and talking about God.

So where does unity fit in? I’d much rather talk to a fellow Christian about how Jesus is working in my life than whether or not baptism is salvific. I would never lead with, “I’m part of the one, true Church. Where do you worship?”

No, it wouldn’t exactly be commensurate with Saint Peter’s injunction found in 1 Peter 3:15.

I know the Holy Spirit is not limited and I like to see how He is working in other faith communities. But if I’m asked to defend my Catholic faith, I will do so, proclaiming the hope and joy I have through Jesus and the Church. And I will pray that unity may be achieved. Heck, since Jesus prayed for it, certainly it will come to fruition:thumbsup: (whether this world or the next )

Peace in Christ,
Teri

Very pleasantly and persuasively put.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

That was post #21.

Ah, yes. I’m sorry.

Clumsily,
Mick

 

[dzheremi]

No, I wasn’t taking a cheap shot at you. I’m truly sorry if that’s how I came across. Please forgive me for my poor choice of words. I was just reflecting upon the thoughts I had when I typed out my Original Post. Actually, I don’t think I’ve yet seen any of the kind of comments I was hoping not to see (I was thinking more about presentation rather than content – you know, the tone and attitude that some posters adopt).

I see. I’m sorry, too. I didn’t mean for that to sound accusatory.

Fascinating article. The argument isn’t against a false ecumenism but against ecumenism, which is viewed as a “fatal heresy.” So it’s implied that virtually any contact with non–Orthodox is to be thought of as dangerous. In tone, the article sounds very much like the sort of utterances I’ve heard from members of the Society of Saint Pius X. Still, the article, which is completely negative and full of doom and gloom from start to finish, is an endorsement that the title of this thread is rooted in reality.

I wish I could tell you that it is the first such article I’ve come across, but even cursory explorations on Orthodox webpages dealing with relations with the RCC shows up a not-insignificant amount of this sort of stuff (and the same can be said about some Catholic groups, who still go to great lengths to denounce “Eastern heresies”…yuck). Luckily for all of us, the internet is not the real world, and my Orthodox friends are honestly among the nicest people that I know. That’s what’s REALLY important (and evidence that what you write is true: we don’t need to wait for anybody to give us the go ahead to approach one another in charity. This is the work of EVERY Christian who cares about this issue). It’s a shame that some fundamentally negative people on both sides of the schism would rather devour their brothers than bring them to the truths of the common faith that we each claim (y’know, the first content of the 7 councils that we both agree on, the ~1000 years of doctrinal unity, etc).

I, too, want the East and the West to be one. I think you’re right to be cautious and I certainly wouldn’t propose that any person should compromise truth, as he or she understands that truth to be.

The hardline RCC and Orthodox response to that could be: “Can there be more than one truth?”

But I would venture to suggest that the way to make some progress might be to take a closer look at the theology that apparently separates us.

I definitely agree with this, at least with regard to Eastern Orthodox (the ACOE and Oriental Orthodox would require different approaches, since they accept fewer councils than we do, and have been separated longer from either of us than we have from one another).

 

[SSTeacher]

I see. I’m sorry, too. I didn’t mean for that to sound accusatory.

You didn’t sound accusatory – you sounded hurt, which made me feel wretched. Thanks for being so willing to dismiss the misunderstanding.

I wish I could tell you that it is the first such article I’ve come across, but even cursory explorations on Orthodox webpages dealing with relations with the RCC shows up a not-insignificant amount of this sort of stuff (and the same can be said about some Catholic groups, who still go to great lengths to denounce “Eastern heresies”…yuck). Luckily for all of us, the internet is not the real world, and my Orthodox friends are honestly among the nicest people that I know. That’s what’s REALLY important (and evidence that what you write is true: we don’t need to wait for anybody to give us the go ahead to approach one another in charity. This is the work of EVERY Christian who cares about this issue). It’s a shame that some fundamentally negative people on both sides of the schism would rather devour their brothers than bring them to the truths of the common faith that we each claim (y’know, the first content of the 7 councils that we both agree on, the ~1000 years of doctrinal unity, etc).

I’ve kept well away from the kind of stuff you’re citing but I’m aware of it. Within my own small Orthodox circle I’ve occasionally mentioned unity and although I haven’t heard anything really negative, neither have I heard sadness or outrage that Christendom is so divided.

The hardline RCC and Orthodox response to that could be: “Can there be more than one truth?”

How right you are. The barrier would go up immediately.

I definitely agree with this, at least with regard to Eastern Orthodox (the ACOE and Oriental Orthodox would require different approaches, since they accept fewer councils than we do, and have been separated longer from either of us than we have from one another).

Indeed – so for the moment I suggest we focus upon the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Here’s my initial thought:

The main obstacles to unity between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church (not in any particular order) are as follows:

The filioque
The doctrine of purgatory
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception
The role and power of the papacy (which includes the notion of infallibility)

Can you come up with any more? Let’s make a complete list and then discuss whether or not each difficulty is insurmountable. We ought perhaps to start a new thread with a positive title like, Unity Between Catholics And Orthodox Christians Is Not As Difficult As You Might Think. That’ll give the hardliners on both sides the opportunity to denounce as a heretic whichever of us submits the Original Post for daring to even think about unity but let’s get the list completed first.

Are you willing to join me in this?

Hopefully,
Mick

 

[Tezza]

You’re welcome.

I’m greatly encouraged by your words here because it seems that we’re thinking along the same lines. We are indeed so varied and different, even in how we know God. As you’re thinking along these lines why not revisit/check out *** Sacred Pathways***, a book authored by Gary Thomas? It may perhaps be more helpful than The Temperaments. No need to purchase the book (although it is an engaging read, particularly if one hasn’t given a lot of thought to how different God has made us all) because there are currently 18 reviews on Amazon, which probably provide enough food for thought.

Thank you for the information. I will take a look see.

I realized after visiting an order of Sisters this week (I’m discerning religious life) that I pray daily for Christian unity when I say the Morning Offering. The Sisters also say this prayer daily after the Divine Office. I think if we all prayed this prayer, the results would be phenomenal.

O My Jesus, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I offer you my prayers, works, joys and sufferings of this day, in union with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass throughout the world. I offer them for all the intentions of your Sacred Heart: for the salvation of souls, in reparation for sin, and for the reunion of all Christians. I offer them for the intentions of our bishops and for all apostles of prayer and in particular, for those recommended by our Holy Father this month. Amen.

Peace be with you!!
Teri

 

[dzheremi]

Here’s my initial thought:

The main obstacles to unity between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church (not in any particular order) are as follows:

The filioque
The doctrine of purgatory
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception
The role and power of the papacy (which includes the notion of infallibility)

Indeed. These are the “big four”, and unfortunately they’re mostly non-negotiable on either side of the divide (“mostly” because I am unsure about the filioque, as I know the eastern Churches in union with Rome do not recite it).

Can you come up with any more?

I think that you’ve covered the biggest ones. Other problems are less a matter of doctrine, at least from the Catholic view of things (e.g., leavened vs. unleavened bread, as I’ve been told that the Armenians use unleavened bread as the RCC does, so this cannot be honestly termed a “western invention” or what have you).

Let’s make a complete list and then discuss whether or not each difficulty is insurmountable. We ought perhaps to start a new thread with a positive title like, Unity Between Catholics And Orthodox Christians Is Not As Difficult As You Might Think. That’ll give the hardliners on both sides the opportunity to denounce as a heretic whichever of us submits the Original Post for daring to even think about unity but let’s get the list completed first.

Are you willing to join me in this?

Sure, though I think doctrinally you’ve covered the main points. To me, the other things are more related to cultural outlook and its effect on praxis, e.g. eastern rejection of scholasticism, which is honestly a division at which I find myself on the side of the East, not the West, and is a source of much spiritual discomfort for me. I suppose in “response” to your list I could post some of the reasons for the average westerner’s reticence when confronted with Eastern Orthodox customs, as these probably play a bigger role in continued estrangement with the East than any one doctrinal issue might (since we were doctrinally united for so long, there’s less ground to cover there). In fact, I will do that below. I’d be interested to read your thoughts on them.