Christian unity seems to be more focused on Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism rather than Protestant Christians

[Mannyfit75]

I have a general impression that the Catholic Church seem to focus more on unity towards the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Protestant Christians.

The Joint Commision of Catholic-Orthodox Mission made a statement on recently concerning the talks in Ravenna, Itaty (Oct 8-14, 2007).

Any comment why this is so?

 

[Freshman88]

The Easterners hold true to much of the faith. They have a respectful and authentic liturgy, the Real Presence, proper ordinations among other Sacraments as well as Apostolic Succession.

While Protestants rebelled against Tradition, the Easterners held on to it, though it is an imperfect understanding of Tradition.

Overall, the Easterners, for the most part have a proper grasp of True Christianity, while the Protestants, depending on the sect are much much more lost and confused.

I hope our lost Eastern brothers will someday submit to the authority of Rome.

Also the Easterners are in a position that would be much easier to adjust (differing on just a handful of doctrine), whereas with many Protestants the only proper form of ecumencalism would be a complete conversion, some sects are so lost, there is nothing left to redeem.

 

[ralphinal]

I agree. Easier to make it all fit together. There are also mmore clearly defined thologies and church structures. Besides, with the Eastern Churches, there are less sticking points such as the sacraments.

 

[Steadfast]

The obstacles to Roman Catholic / Eastern Orthodox reunion seem to be mostly structural and “political”.

Between Rome and the Protestant churches the differences are more definitely and broadly doctrinal.

 

[AllSaints1631]

I have a general impression that the Catholic Church seem to focus more on unity towards the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Protestant Christians.

The Joint Commision of Catholic-Orthodox Mission made a statement on recently concerning the talks in Ravenna, Itaty (Oct 8-14, 2007).

Any comment why this is so?

I haven’t felt that the Catholic church has been working toward unity with anyone in many years. I realize that many dialogues do exist with the Catholic church and other denominations but I believe that it is more fanfare than anything else. I don’t see Rome really and honestly reaching out for unity with anyone, Orthodoxy included.

 

[Freshman88]

I haven’t felt that the Catholic church has been working toward unity with anyone in many years. I realize that many dialogues do exist with the Catholic church and other denominations but I believe that it is more fanfare than anything else. I don’t see Rome really and honestly reaching out for unity with anyone, Orthodoxy included.

The Church will always welcome back schismatics. That is as much as the Church can do to “reach out” because the Church cannot compromise on doctrine/dogma even if she wanted to.

The only way that true unity can come is through compromise, and no side is willing to admit that it is wrong. If any side were to admit that it was wrong, it would be a scandal to the faithful , and countless bishops of either camp would refuse to join. In any event the schism will not be healed.

Orthodoxy will not reach out to Rome any more then Rome will reach out to Orthodoxy.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The Church will always welcome back schismatics. That is as much as the Church can do to “reach out” because the Church cannot compromise on doctrine/dogma even if she wanted to.

The only way that true unity can come is through compromise, and no side is willing to admit that it is wrong. If any side were to admit that it was wrong, it would be a scandal to the faithful , and countless bishops of either camp would refuse to join. In any event the schism will not be healed.

Orthodoxy will not reach out to Rome any more then Rome will reach out to Orthodoxy.

I am hardly an expert on ecumenism, but it does appear to me the Catholic Church does persist in pursuing reunion with the Orthodox. It appears to me there is an extremely strong Orthodox self-identification with the “collectivity”, and I don’t know that Orthodox can really be approached in any way other than institutionally. At the same time, the Orthodox self-identification with particular Councils and the seeming impossibility of there being future councils, presents an enormous barrier to reunification, either institutionally or on an individual basis.

Reunion with Protestants is altogether different, in that Protestant emphasis on the primacy of individual conscience almost precludes reunion on an institutional basis, because there is little sense of any institution being able to determine anything for the faithful anyway.

It seems ironic then, that while institutional reunion with either Orthodoxy or Protestant churchs is essentially blocked, the very Protestant emphasis on individual conscience ensures a very low barrier to individual conversion of Protestants to Catholicism. The “collectivity”, in a sense, denies that there is a “collectivity” having authority to determine anything for the individual.

It is my observation that, over the last few decades, Catholic efforts at “reaching out” to Protestants has resulted in significant individual conversions, at least in my part of the country. And, it has been my observation that barriers between the Catholic Church and Protestants as individuals have massively eroded over the last few decades. A tremendous upsurge in conversions locally tells me the Catholic Church’s outreach efforts are successful, but on an individual basis.

 

[mgrfin]

I am hardly an expert on ecumenism, but it does appear to me the Catholic Church does persist in pursuing reunion with the Orthodox. It appears to me there is an extremely strong Orthodox self-identification with the “collectivity”, and I don’t know that Orthodox can really be approached in any way other than institutionally. At the same time, the Orthodox self-identification with particular Councils and the seeming impossibility of there being future councils, presents an enormous barrier to reunification, either institutionally or on an individual basis.

Reunion with Protestants is altogether different, in that Protestant emphasis on the primacy of individual conscience almost precludes reunion on an institutional basis, because there is little sense of any institution being able to determine anything for the faithful anyway.

It seems ironic then, that while institutional reunion with either Orthodoxy or Protestant churchs is essentially blocked, the very Protestant emphasis on individual conscience ensures a very low barrier to individual conversion of Protestants to Catholicism. The “collectivity”, in a sense, denies that there is a “collectivity” having authority to determine anything for the individual.

It is my observation that, over the last few decades, Catholic efforts at “reaching out” to Protestants has resulted in significant individual conversions, at least in my part of the country. And, it has been my observation that barriers between the Catholic Church and Protestants as individuals have massively eroded over the last few decades. A tremendous upsurge in conversions locally tells me the Catholic Church’s outreach efforts are successful, but on an individual basis.

I used to think unification with the Eastern Church would be an easy thing. A few misunderstandings, “the Filoque”, some other issues - these could easily be ironed out.

Then I visited some of the threads on this site, and saw the heat coming from our Orthodox brothers. I’m an American, and I’m in the West. It only then occured to me that re-unification with the Eastern Church was far, far off.

It took us 30 years to talk with the Lutherans, and the Joint statement with them did not come to much. But, with the Eastern Church, this is an enormous, monumental problem.

We can only pray in the site of this obstacle.

peace

 

[bpbasilphx]

I hope our lost Eastern brothers will someday submit to the authority of Rome.

Freshman88, would you like it if someone were to say, “I hope the Latins reject the heresies and additions to the faith and return to Orthodox Unity.”

Would you find it offensive?

As long as the idea of “submission to Rome” is part of the equation, just as long will the Eastern Christians not be having any.

Speak in terms of “reconciliation” and you might get somewhere.

 

[mgrfin]

I hope our lost Eastern brothers will someday submit to the authority of Rome.

Freshman88, would you like it if someone were to say, “I hope the Latins reject the heresies and additions to the faith and return to Orthodox Unity.”

Would you find it offensive?

As long as the idea of “submission to Rome” is part of the equation, just as long will the Eastern Christians not be having any.

Speak in terms of “reconciliation” and you might get somewhere.

I don’t know much about the Orthodox, so I can’t make any judgements about it and about unity.

Can I ask, is there any desire on the part of the Orthodox for unity?

If not, then I don’t see any reason to spend any emotional energy on the subject.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

I haven’t felt that the Catholic church has been working toward unity with anyone in many years. I realize that many dialogues do exist with the Catholic church and other denominations but I believe that it is more fanfare than anything else. I don’t see Rome really and honestly reaching out for unity with anyone, Orthodoxy included.

Really what do you call the Joint Commission of Catholic-Orthodox meeting in Ravenna, Italy. Orthodox now agree that the papacy had an important role. This is only one step towards unity. If the Church had not reached out to the Eastern Orthodox, why did they set up a commission on theological issues concerning Christianity…

 

[AllSaints1631]

Really what do you call the Joint Commission of Catholic-Orthodox meeting in Ravenna, Italy. Orthodox now agree that the papacy had an important role. This is only one step towards unity. If the Church had not reached out to the Eastern Orthodox, why did they set up a commission on theological issues concerning Christianity…

This is no different than the dialogues set up by the Catholic church with Methodists, Lutherans and other Protestants for decades on end. What have they yielded? These same dialogues bide just as well with the Orthodox church. This is nothing new. If they did begin to become truly effective then this would be something really unprecidented and great but I believe that Rome needs to be willing to bend as it wishes others to do the same. We seem to have gotten hell bent on being right on all counts no matter what and i don’t believe that this is helping anything.

 

[Mannyfit75]

This is no different than the dialogues set up by the Catholic church with Methodists, Lutherans and other Protestants for decades on end. What have they yielded? These same dialogues bide just as well with the Orthodox church. This is nothing new. If they did begin to become truly effective then this would be something really unprecidented and great but I believe that Rome needs to be willing to bend as it wishes others to do the same. We seem to have gotten hell bent on being right on all counts no matter what and i don’t believe that this is helping anything.

I actually read the document and it is a move towards the possible unification between Eastern Orthodox Church and Catholic Church. In the document it states;

*42. Conciliarity at the universal level, exercised in the ecumenical councils, implies an active role of the bishop of Rome, as protos of the bishops of the major sees, in the consensus of the assembled bishops. Although the bishop of Rome did not convene the ecumenical councils of the early centuries and never personally presided over them, he nevertheless was closely involved in the process of decision-making by the councils.

1. Primacy and conciliarity are mutually interdependent. That is why primacy at the different levels of the life of the Church, local, regional and universal, must always be considered in the context of conciliarity, and conciliarity likewise in the context of primacy.

Concerning primacy at the different levels, we wish to affirm the following points:*
*1 Primacy at all levels is a practice firmly grounded in the canonical tradition of the Church.

2 While the fact of primacy at the universal level is accepted by both East and West, there are differences of understanding with regard to the manner in which it is to be exercised, and also with regard to its scriptural and theological foundations.

1. In the history of the East and of the West, at least until the ninth century, a series of prerogatives was recognised, always in the context of conciliarity, according to the conditions of the times, for the protos or kephale at each of the established ecclesiastical levels: locally, for the bishop as protos of his diocese with regard to his presbyters and people; regionally, for the protos of each metropolis with regard to the bishops of his province, and for the protos of each of the five patriarchates, with regard to the metropolitans of each circumscription; and universally, for the bishop of Rome as protos among the patriarchs. This distinction of levels does not diminish the sacramental equality of every bishop or the catholicity of each local Church.*
   zenit.org/article-21012?l=english

 

[bobzills]

I have a general impression that the Catholic Church seem to focus more on unity towards the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Protestant Christians.

The Joint Commision of Catholic-Orthodox Mission made a statement on recently concerning the talks in Ravenna, Itaty (Oct 8-14, 2007).

Any comment why this is so?

Both Catholic and Orthodox Churches have the seven Sacraments and Apostolic succession. Except possibly for Anglicans, Protestants do not claim to have these. And female priests are not allowed in either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, whereas female ministers and sometimes even gay clergy are welcomed by many Protestant Christians. And generally, Protestants allow more of a flexibility in belief.

 

[peary]

I have a general impression that the Catholic Church seem to focus more on unity towards the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Protestant Christians.

The Joint Commision of Catholic-Orthodox Mission made a statement on recently concerning the talks in Ravenna, Itaty (Oct 8-14, 2007).

Any comment why this is so?

Yes, because the Orthodox churches are still considered part of the original Catholic Church, but they are separated through an unfortunate schism. The East and Western church is referred to as the right and left lung of the Catholic Church. We pray that unity comes soon.

 

[Ridgerunner]

After spending some time reading posts in the old forum, I became convinced that the Catholic Church is going to have much more success with Protestants, particularly southern evangelicals, than it’s likely to have any time soon with the Orthodox. But again, it won’t be on an institutional basis, but an individual basis.

It’s important to realize, and most Catholics don’t realize it, that for many Protestants, the Eucharist is the answer to their prayers and dreams. I have had Protestants express to me how much they wished they could believe in it; that they would become Catholics instantly if they could do that. I think if the Church really emphasized promulgating the truth of the Eucharist among Protestants, in an organized and steady way, it would be worth a thousand Ravennas.

 

[peary]

After spending some time reading posts in the old forum, I became convinced that the Catholic Church is going to have much more success with Protestants, particularly southern evangelicals, than it’s likely to have any time soon with the Orthodox. But again, it won’t be on an institutional basis, but an individual basis.

It’s important to realize, and most Catholics don’t realize it, that for many Protestants, the Eucharist is the answer to their prayers and dreams. I have had Protestants express to me how much they wished they could believe in it; that they would become Catholics instantly if they could do that. I think if the Church really emphasized promulgating the truth of the Eucharist among Protestants, in an organized and steady way, it would be worth a thousand Ravennas.

Personally, I think it’s more important for the earthly Church to seek wholeness within Itself through a path of eventual unification with its eastern half. We are, after all, the same Church and share a valid priesthood as well as valid sacraments, not to mention authentic apostolic succession and the Eucharist. Protestants are in another category all together, as they reject most of what I just typed. And I don’t see any headway in unifying with evangelicals. They reject most of the Church’s teachings.

 

[Freshman88]

I hope our lost Eastern brothers will someday submit to the authority of Rome.

Freshman88, would you like it if someone were to say, “I hope the Latins reject the heresies and additions to the faith and return to Orthodox Unity.”

Would you find it offensive?

As long as the idea of “submission to Rome” is part of the equation, just as long will the Eastern Christians not be having any.

Speak in terms of “reconciliation” and you might get somewhere.

So this can be done without submitting to Rome? The Pope is the vicar of Christ, there’s no way around it.

As long as the idea of “submission to Rome” is part of the equation,

Is there an equation where we don’t have to submit to the Pope?

Would you find it offensive?

Not at all, I’ve heard it so many times - I’m use to it now. Plus it’s a lie, they aren’t “additions”, they are revelations.

 

[peary]

So this can be done without submitting to Rome? The Pope is the vicar of Christ, there’s no way around it. Is there an equation where we don’t have to submit to the Pope?

If Peter was head of the apostles (as is very clearly seen in both the gospels and in Acts), and Christ initiated Peter as the prime minister of his kingdom on earth (which He did), then who is being unreasonable by rejecting the office of Peter? The Western Church has embraced the concept; the Eastern church is so caught up in its political and ethnic identity that until it breaks through its own historical tombs, consideration of a unified Church will never happen.

 

[mgrfin]

After spending some time reading posts in the old forum, I became convinced that the Catholic Church is going to have much more success with Protestants, particularly southern evangelicals, than it’s likely to have any time soon with the Orthodox. But again, it won’t be on an institutional basis, but an individual basis.

It’s important to realize, and most Catholics don’t realize it, that for many Protestants, the Eucharist is the answer to their prayers and dreams. I have had Protestants express to me how much they wished they could believe in it; that they would become Catholics instantly if they could do that. I think if the Church really emphasized promulgating the truth of the Eucharist among Protestants, in an organized and steady way, it would be worth a thousand Ravennas.

I don’t see any unification with the Eastern church anytime soon. They think they have little to gain and much to lose.

In addition to giving up on theological grounds, they are concerned about their liturgy and traditions, that they fear they would lose.

In listening to them argue, they have no inclination, to me, that there is even one iota of a hope of being one with the RCC.

High Church Protestants are another matter. They move closer, opting for a Eucharist and Apostolic succession on their own. With that, they would see themselves in the same position as the Orthodox, and no reason to join us.

The Lutherans had a real chance with the Commission examing theological issues, but I believe that the Lutherans really were primarily interested in getting the ‘anathemas’ of the Council of Trent removed. That aint going to happen, so the Joint Commission achieved a lot of talkings and meetings over the 30 year period, but I don’t see much else.

peace