christian wars

[flower_lady]

Does ISIS believe in Islam (the religion)? I’ve heard some people say that this war has to do with politics which is not so if you ask me. This is a war on christians. Do you think that it is possible that these people might really think that as Saul/Paul, in the bible thought that he was pleasing God by killing christians. They do reject Jesus and the new testament and think that everybody else in the world should too. True or not? I’m asking, if these things I am posting are true. Thank you

 

[Scottgun]

Politics or Religion? The answer to that is yes. Islam comes as a set in which you can’t really disentangle the politics, the law, the religion and the culture. It is in a sense a separate civilization determined to displace, absorb, or outright conquer rival civilizations.

 

[Ignatius]

Does ISIS believe in Islam

ISIS = Islamic Stated in Iraq and Syria. Does the Islamic State believe in Islam? The Islamic State** is** Islam!

 

[flower_lady]

I thought that most of Islam are Arabs and that most of Arabs don’t believe in murder. I am ignorant and extremely confused when it comes to the middle east. I don’t understand the religion or the peoples politics at all. Do you know of some sites that could teach me all about the differences, or a book I could read regarding the middle east and their different beliefs? I feel like Scottgun, the whole mess is a bunch of confusion.Thank you.

 

[Scientia_Dei]

ISIS is islam and islam is ISIS

 

[Scottgun]

I thought that most of Islam are Arabs and that most of Arabs don’t believe in murder.

Depends on the definition of murder…

 

[otjm]

The two major branches of Islam are the Sunni and the Shiite branches; there are other subsets, such as Wahhabi which is strongly present in Saudi Arabia. Osama bin Laden was Wahhabi.

Islam is more than just a religion; it is a theocracy, so it combines both religion and government (for lack of a better term at the moment); that is, one of the goals is to have sharia, or the moral code and religious law as the law of the land. There is much ongoing discussion of sharia, for example, in areas (such as France) where there are large concentrations of Muslims. There are areas where allegedly neither the police nor the fire crews will go in parts of France.

Sharia covers not only crime, politics, economics, sexual intercourse, hygiene, diet, prayer, and everyday etiquette and fasting.

So, to a certain extent, it is correct to say that ISIS is on a political bent using war as its means of spreading and enforcing it’s view if Islam. It is also, at the same time, a religious war, based on religious principles, including the formation of the caliphate, a form of political-religious leadership which centers around the caliph - the “successor” to Muhammad, with overtones of world-wide domination under the caliph.

Saying that Islam is ISIS and ISIS is Islam is the equivalent of saying that the Catholic Church is Christianity, and Christianity is the Catholic Church.

To add to the confusions, ISIS appears to have started as an al Qaeda affiliate in Iraq before it crossed over into Syria to join the conflict there. Once in Syria, they ended up in conflict with Al-Nusra front, and al-Qaeda affiliated Syrian rebel group. There should be no surprise that people are confused as to who is who, and what relation they have to whoever else is who.

And in the process, they are causing Christians and others to flee, and a number of those who have not fled have been executed. Children have been beheaded. They have doubled back into Iraq, taking a number of cities.

And they seem to be recruiting young men world wide; as one person noted, we are trying to stop them and we can’t kill them as fast as they are recruiting.

 

[Ignatius]

I thought that most of Islam are Arabs and that most of Arabs don’t believe in murder. I am ignorant and extremely confused when it comes to the middle east. I don’t understand the religion or the peoples politics at all. Do you know of some sites that could teach me all about the differences, or a book I could read regarding the middle east and their different beliefs? I feel like Scottgun, the whole mess is a bunch of confusion.Thank you.

The qur’an expressly requires the killing, specifically beheding, of those who refuse to convert. They don’t see it as murder, killing a muslim would be murder.

 

[otjm]

The qur’an expressly requires the killing, specifically beheding, of those who refuse to convert. They don’t see it as murder, killing a muslim would be murder.

Except that there may be definitions of what the term “Muslim” means, as ISIS has had it out for more Muslims than Christians. And those definitions seem to be somewhat hidden from most of us non-Muslims.

Are Sunnis Muslims? Are Shiites? This seems to be a matter largely between the two, with the minor players being caught in the cross hairs, along with the “other” side.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

The qur’an expressly requires the killing, specifically beheding, of those who refuse to convert. They don’t see it as murder, killing a muslim would be murder.

The concept of “dhimma” kind of invalidates your argument that there is only one way for Muslims to deal with non-Muslims who won’t convert. One has to wonder how accurate your other statements concerning Islam and Muslims are given the fundamental flaw in your above statement.

 

[Ignatius]

The concept of “dhimma” kind of invalidates your argument that there is only one way for Muslims to deal with non-Muslims who won’t convert. One has to wonder how accurate your other statements concerning Islam and Muslims are given the fundamental flaw in your above statement.

Good point, I should have pointed out that the qur’an expressly requires the killing, specifically beheading, of those who refuse to convert or submit to dhimmitude (dhimmitude.org/). Thanks for the correction.

 

[Servant19]

Good point, I should have pointed out that the qur’an expressly requires the killing, specifically beheading, of those who refuse to convert or submit to dhimmitude (dhimmitude.org/). Thanks for the correction.

Can you please point out the specific verse in the Quran that specifies this action?

.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Can you please point out the specific verse in the Quran that specifies this action?

.

That would venture into interpretation and authority to interpret which as we see from this very post which you responded to is an issue. How one reads a verse may vary, the question is who has the authority to interpret.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Stay within forum rules for inter-religious dialogue

 

[Ignatius]

Can you please point out the specific verse in the Quran that specifies this action?

.

Sura 47 contains the following ayah (verse): “When you encounter the unbelievers, . . . strike off their heads” The Qur’anic Arabic terms are generally straightforward: With little variation, scholars have translated the verse as, "When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks. For centuries, leading Islamic scholars have interpreted this verse literally. The famous Iranian historian and Qur’an commentator Muhammad b. Jarir at-Tabari wrote that “striking at the necks” is simply God’s sanction of ferocious opposition to non-Muslims. Mahmud b. Umar az-Zamakhshari in a major commentary studied for centuries by Sunni religious scholars, suggested that any prescription to “strike at the necks” commands to avoid striking elsewhere so as to confirm death and not simply wound.

SURA 2:191 Slay them wherever ye find them
Sura 9:123 Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers
Sura 48:29 Those who follow Mohamed are ruthless to the unbelievers

The Hadith: He (Abu Hurayah) says: “The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.”

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Sura 47 contains the following ayah (verse): “When you encounter the unbelievers, . . . strike off their heads” The Qur’anic Arabic terms are generally straightforward: With little variation, scholars have translated the verse as, "When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks. For centuries, leading Islamic scholars have interpreted this verse literally. The famous Iranian historian and Qur’an commentator Muhammad b. Jarir at-Tabari wrote that “striking at the necks” is simply God’s sanction of ferocious opposition to non-Muslims. Mahmud b. Umar az-Zamakhshari in a major commentary studied for centuries by Sunni religious scholars, suggested that any prescription to “strike at the necks” commands to avoid striking elsewhere so as to confirm death and not simply wound.

SURA 2:191 Slay them wherever ye find them
Sura 9:123 Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers
Sura 48:29 Those who follow Mohamed are ruthless to the unbelievers

The Hadith: He (Abu Hurayah) says: “The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.”

“So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.”

quran.com/47

I guess there is a reason some people decide to omit part of what they are quoting with “…”.

 

[Servant19]

Sura 47 contains the following ayah (verse): “When you encounter the unbelievers, . . . strike off their heads” The Qur’anic Arabic terms are generally straightforward: With little variation, scholars have translated the verse as, "When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks. For centuries, leading Islamic scholars have interpreted this verse literally. The famous Iranian historian and Qur’an commentator Muhammad b. Jarir at-Tabari wrote that “striking at the necks” is simply God’s sanction of ferocious opposition to non-Muslims. Mahmud b. Umar az-Zamakhshari in a major commentary studied for centuries by Sunni religious scholars, suggested that any prescription to “strike at the necks” commands to avoid striking elsewhere so as to confirm death and not simply wound.

SURA 2:191 Slay them wherever ye find them
Sura 9:123 Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers
Sura 48:29 Those who follow Mohamed are ruthless to the unbelievers

The Hadith: He (Abu Hurayah) says: “The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.”

I thought so dear friend

Might I humbly suggest you read in context. If we all read the Books like the way you propose then the God of Christianity also proposed this:

“Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”

Be fair and be just dear friend

.

 

[ProdigalSun]

I thought so dear friend

Might I humbly suggest you read in context. If we all read the Books like the way you propose then the God of Christianity also proposed this:

“Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”

Be fair and be just dear friend

.

Interesting you bring in a quote from the Old Testament of the “Holy Bible” No one here will refute the fact it is in the bible. The Jews at that time were told to go in and kill these people at a certain time in history no doubt about it. This does not mean however that the Jewish people will be forever killing women and children to spread their religion. It was done and over thousands of years ago.

This of course has nothing to do what Ignatius has put forth. he is talking about the fact that many of these Islamists take their Quarn serious when it tells them to got off the heads of unbelievers. This of course is evident at the fact that there are many muslims killing Christians and anyone that gets in their way.

What the bible says about anything is quite irrelevant to the conversation. Stay on topic!

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Interesting you bring in a quote from the Old Testament of the “Holy Bible” No one here will refute the fact it is in the bible. The Jews at that time were told to go in and kill these people at a certain time in history no doubt about it. This does not mean however that the Jewish people will be forever killing women and children to spread their religion. It was done and over thousands of years ago.

This of course has nothing to do what Ignatius has put forth. he is talking about the fact that many of these Islamists take their Quarn serious when it tells them to got off the heads of unbelievers. This of course is evident at the fact that there are many muslims killing Christians and anyone that gets in their way.

What the bible says about anything is quite irrelevant to the conversation. Stay on topic!

So,
-Ignatius provides us with selectively edited and out of context quotes from the Quran.
-Servant mentions context and illustrates how easy it is to take a holy text out of it.
-You claim Servant’s comment is irrelevant.

Pray tell how using a misquote/out of context quote from the Bible to illustrate how easy it is to misquote/take out of context the holy text of another faith and specifically how Ignatius has done so in his prior comment is somehow irrelevant to the conversation.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

The qur’an expressly requires the killing, specifically beheding, of those who refuse to convert. They don’t see it as murder, killing a muslim would be murder.

The don’t seem to have any problems killing their fellow Moslems. In fact, they probably murder more of their fellow Moslems than anybody else. ISIS is active in Iraq and Syria in the main as far as I know, and they are Moslem countries.