Ted Bundy had not been convicted yet when he escaped, so he was not in a high security prison.Ted Bundy escaped prison twice. Our system of prisons does not guarantee that we are effectively defended against murders.
6,530 people escaped from state prisons. This is 1/2 of one percent of prsoners but that is still a lot that escape. A Texas jail break resulted in a death of a police officer. There is one other circumstance that no one ever talks about that is murder within the prison. What would stop a man in prison for life from killing? Murder in prison is often covered up. I know of one incident of a prisoner who was killed but his death was listed as natural. I guess it is natural to be beat over the head. I believe that the dp should be rarely used but should be available.
I’ve always wondered what the crime rate is in prison. I’m sure it is not ever mentioned for good reason. Watching ‘Lockup’, an MSNBC documentary series on prisons in the US, one gets the impression that prisons are pretty dangerous places not just for other prisoners but guards. Besides proving that even a near total elimination of freedom can not stop violence it appears that workers and other prisoners are subject to unjust violence because some prisoners are not being executed and thus able to continue to hurt people. It seems they have come up with hugely expensive facilities to combat this but these places become pretty inhumane in completely cutting people off from the real world outside of prison. Being so detached might only increase the violence.Again There is one other circumstance that no one ever talks about that is murder within the prison. What would stop a man in prison for life from killing?
Ted Bundy had not been convicted yet when he escaped, so he was not in a high security prison.
What do you base this on? You still have not addressedMost prisoners who kill in prison are not there for murder, but usually for theft or drugs. (hence them not being in high security). Does this mean we should use the death penalty on thieves and druggies too?
Again There is one other circumstance that no one ever talks about that is murder within the prison. What would stop a man in prison for life from killing?
Did you miss
You don’t think there are certain forms of punishment in prisons?What do you base this on? You still have not addressed
You don’t think there are certain forms of punishment in prisons?Again There is one other circumstance that no one ever talks about that is murder within the prison. What would stop a man in prison for life from killing?
I have spent years wrestling with the death penalty issue. What I posted above is one of the very first times I have tried to put the concept into words.Revenge is defined by the Oxford dictionary this way.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/revenge?region=us
As you can plainly see, revenge is simply inflicting harm on someone who has wronged you. It is a personal matter, justice is not involved.
This is hard to articulate. I would say it is an ultimate concern for all of the parties involved, including the convicted.What do you mean by mercy?
There is a certain cruelty and element of torture to this kind of punishment. Granted many of the men who get it are deserving of it. But this could harm a persons mental state and encourage further worse behavior.Solitary confinement is a popular one.
Furthermore, there are prisons out there where the prisoners are only able to leave their solo cell for 1 hour in a whole week, at which time they are escorted into a cage outside where they stand around completely alone for an hour.
Killing is not a solution.There is a certain cruelty and element of torture to this kind of punishment. Granted many of the men who get it are deserving of it. But this could harm a persons mental state and encourage further worse behavior.
True. Solitary confinement in many cases could be considered torture, which the Church condems. Curious to recommend something condemed as an alternative to something discouraged but not condemed.There is a certain cruelty and element of torture to this kind of punishment. Granted many of the men who get it are deserving of it. But this could harm a persons mental state and encourage further worse behavior.
Solitary confinement is condemned by the Catholic Church? Interesting that the Church would condemn solitary confinement but condone the death penalty (the ultimate “punishment.”)True. Solitary confinement in many cases could be considered torture, which the Church condems. Curious to recommend something condemed as an alternative to something discouraged but not condemed.
If you go back to the what I had posted on page one re the Council of Trent, you will see that the Church sometimes disagrees with you.Killing is not a solution.
No, I do not agree with it completely. Although he DOES say that the Death Penalty should not be used in the US, and that was what the poll was about.If you go back to the what I had posted on page one re the Council of Trent, you will see that the Church sometimes disagrees with you.
Pope John Paul II, the same pope you quoted, made a certain man a Cardinal. This man was not a bishop, but a theologian. Pope John Paul II made him a Cardinal singluarly on the grounds of his theological ability.
That man was Avery Cardinal Dulles.
Cardinal Dulles wrote on the Church’s teachings on the Death Penalty.
Here is the article. Do you agree with this article?
catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0461.html
You note I did not say that solitary confinement is always equivalent to torture but that in many cases it **could be **considered torture.Solitary confinement is condemned by the Catholic Church? Interesting that the Church would condemn solitary confinement but condone the death penalty (the ultimate “punishment.”)
Can you show me the source, please?
As to torture, the source (or one of many sources) is the catechism:True. Solitary confinement in many cases could be considered torture, which the Church condems. Curious to recommend something condemed as an alternative to something discouraged but not condemed.
We tend to think of torture in the context of extracting confessions. But the Church considers it equally wrong when used as a punishment method.2297 Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.91
Note the similarity in the bolded sections between the Istanbul statement and the CCC. Of course, not all solitary confinement is torture but some is, especially for inmates with existing mental health conditions. The rate of prisoners in the US Federal prisons with existing or previous mental health diagnoses, by the way, is 45%.On a regional level, the European Court and former Commission on Human Rights, as well as the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture (CPT), have made it clear that the use of solitary confinement can amount to a violation of Article 3 of the ECHR (i.e. constitute torture, inhuman or degrading treatment), depending on the specific circumstances of the case, and the conditions and duration of detention. It has been recognised that “…complete sensory isolation coupled with total isolation, can destroy the personality and constitutes a form of inhuman treatment which cannot be justified by the requirements of security or any other reason”.5 The CPT has also stated that solitary confinement “can amount to inhuman and degrading treatment” and has on several occasions criticized such practices and recommended reform – i.e. either abandoning specific regimes, limiting the use of solitary confinement to exceptional circumstances, and/or securing inmates a higher level of social contact
Sure, solitary confinement CAN be used as torture.You note I did not say that solitary confinement is always equivalent to torture but that in many cases it **could be **considered torture.
:tsktsk:Curious to recommend something condemed as an alternative to something discouraged but not condemed.
“Vengeance consists in the infliction of a penal evil on one who has sinned.” (Aquinas)Revenge is personal, which is why I don’t think it is a proper role of the state. Justice, yes.
I think this was JPII’s feeling as well, which is perhaps why he was personally opposed to capital punishment. That is not, however, a moral concern but a prudential one.Too often the calls for the death penalty (modern day, in the US) are less aimed at justice for the victims and more aimed at satisfying the blood lust of the public and the media.
True, but it is right and necessary to wish for a just punishment, and for a punishment to be just its severity must be commensurate with the severity of the crime.Yes, many of the crimes are heinous. And, I understand it is hard to express compasion for the perpetrator of many of the crimes, especially when the crime scene photos are all over the news. But it just isn’t right to wish anyone into Hell.
This is not the main/whole reason why the Blessed late Pope was so vehemently against the Death Penalty.I think this was JPII’s feeling as well, which is perhaps why he was personally opposed to capital punishment. That is not, however, a moral concern but a prudential one.
I was responding to exnihilo’s post which, in turn, was a response to this one.Sure, solitary confinement CAN be used as torture.
But come on, NO one here is condoning torture - MUCH LESS someone who opposes the DP like myself!
Solitary confinement is a popular one.
Furthermore, there are prisons out there where the prisoners are only able to leave their solo cell for 1 hour in a whole week, at which time they are escorted into a cage outside where they stand around completely alone for an hour.
Google the APA statements on solitary confinement. Depriving an inmate of all social contact for extended periods of time can be tortuous in its effect, no matter how clinically it is used. For a prisoner who already has mental health issues, it can drive him/her literally insane. So extended use of solitary confinement is not a morally defensible alternative to the death penalty for dangerous prisoners.…Prisoners who can’t behave themselves are normally sent to such facilities.
Thanks for the Aquinas quote. I need to read more of it in context. That is not the usual use of the word “vengeance”.“Vengeance consists in the infliction of a penal evil on one who has sinned.” (Aquinas)
The State has the positive obligation to punish the criminal - that is, to avenge the injury. That’s not how we like to think of this, but it is nonetheless the case. Retribution is the demand of justice.
I think this was JPII’s feeling as well, which is perhaps why he was personally opposed to capital punishment. That is not, however, a moral concern but a prudential one.
True, but it is right and necessary to wish for a just punishment, and for a punishment to be just its severity must be commensurate with the severity of the crime.
Once again, no one here (especially not me!) is advocating the use of solitary confinement as torture.I was responding to exnihilo’s post which, in turn, was a response to this one.
Google the APA statements on solitary confinement. Depriving an inmate of all social contact for extended periods of time can be tortuous in its effect, no matter how clinically it is used. For a prisoner who already has mental health issues, it can drive him/her literally insane. So extended use of solitary confinement is not a morally defensible alternative to the death penalty for dangerous prisoners.
I am also against the death penalty but don’t want to see our system substitute one wrong for another.