Christianity and the Death Penalty

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Edward_H said:
  • Your statement is confused, if not meaningless.
  • A principle is either morally acceptable or not.
  • The principle of using capital punishment is morally permissible.
  • The practice of the principle is another matter.
The Pope was only referring to the practice today, not the principle itself.

This may seem an unnecessary point, but it’s critical to understand the issue.
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  • My statement is neither confused, nor meaningless. Your arguments are.
  • A principle is either morally acceptable or not, but the principal itself changes depending on the circumstances.
  • The principle of using capital punishment is morally permissible only if done out of complete necessity in order to keep others safe… and this is not longer the case.
  • The practice of the principle is what this thread/discussion is actually about.
The pope was only referring to the practice today, and so was I when I started this thread. Again, read the OP.

This IS a VERY unnecessary point, but I feel you bring this up just so you can argue with something/anything I say.
 
Corki said:
👍 Also, by looking at the Epistles which have been referenced in this thread, the writings of Aquinas and of Blessed Pope John Paul II as well as Cardinal Dulles, it is clear that the principle has endured for 2000 years while the application changes with the times.
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I agree that it changes with the times, that’s been my point all along. That is why I specified time and place when I started this thread. And yet you both argue with ME about this rather than with Ender or others who have tried to use Aquinas’ quote to defend the use of the Death Penalty today, while saying JPII’s words do not apply. And I know it’s only because it’s me and you 2 don’t like me and look for every opportunity to bash everything and anything I say.
 
Debora123 said:
I agree that it changes with the times, that’s been my point all along. That is why I specified time and place when I started this thread. And yet you both argue with ME about this rather than with Ender or others who have tried to use Aquinas’ quote to defend the use of the Death Penalty today, while saying JPII’s words do not apply. And I know it’s only because it’s me and you 2 don’t like me and look for every opportunity to bash everything and anything I say.
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Debora,

I mean this in all charity but you have made several posts lately that sound like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder.

Any time someone clarifies a point you make or adds another piece of information to the discussion it does not mean they are arguing with you. You have come back pretty hard against some people who are actually on your side of this discussion.

Yes, I agree with you in that I am against the death penalty.

No, I never used Aquinas, I simply pointed out that Aquinas and JPII both have much to offer in this discussion and it isn’t necessary to chose between them.

I am not defending the use of the death penalty today (with or without Aquinas :)). I am merely saying that the principal of capital punishment as a means of meeting out justice or of punishing a criminal is not, in principle, against Christian morality.
 
Corki said:
Debora,

I mean this in all charity but you have made several posts lately that sound like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder.

Any time someone clarifies a point you make or adds another piece of information to the discussion it does not mean they are arguing with you. You have come back pretty hard against some people who are actually on your side of this discussion.

Yes, I agree with you in that I am against the death penalty.

No, I never used Aquinas, I simply pointed out that Aquinas and JPII both have much to offer in this discussion and it isn’t necessary to chose between them.

I am not defending the use of the death penalty today (with or without Aquinas :)). I am merely saying that the principal of capital punishment as a means of meeting out justice or of punishing a criminal is not, in principle, against Christian morality.
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That’s my point exactly, you are on my side of the discussion (or are you?)…

But you criticize me and what I say more than anyone else on this thread! You’ve been way more charitable and polite to others on this thread who completely disagree with you. Don’t try to sit there and tell me it’s not a prejudice thing you and Edward have against me. Just look at what he said to me in his last post! I’ve had to personally PM BOTH of you to ask you to please stop being specifically rude and hostile to me, and I’ve had to PM BOTH of you to stop publicly referencing posts I’ve made on other threads to try to defame my character. Don’t pretend like this isn’t the case.
 
Debora123 said:
Hah, nice Edward, nice.

I rest my case.
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You’re going beyond what the JPII said to suit your own views. It’s obvious to me and to others.

More precise and refined thinking, reading, and writing will clear things up. See the posting above where I included more detail and context from the Pope’s actual statements, with appropriate and relevant emphasis added, vs. your cherry picking.
 
Edward_H said:
You’re going beyond what the JPII said to suit your own views. It’s obvious to me and to others.

More precise and refined thinking, reading, and writing will clear things up. See the posting above where I included more detail and context from the Pope’s actual statements, with appropriate and relevant emphasis added, vs. your cherry picking.
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You are making things up in your head on purpose specifically so you can offend me or dismiss what I say.

You have been very disrespectful to me and intentionally insulted me publicly. I have nothing left to say to you.
 
Muddied thinking, especially in public forums, can lead to serious consequences and misunderstanding about moral matters.

It’s one cause of wretched cafeteria-ism among Catholics. Some of these people have never struggled to get to the real root of an issue, some even choose to find and use mini-snippets of statements from the Popes.

“Results driven theory”. This is a serious flaw.

It’s worth engaging people seriously and forthrightly when you see this sort of superficiality, even if some of these people seem to always be on the edge of being offended.
 
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