Christianity and Vedism (Hinduism)

[desales09]

I started a thread entitled “Hinduism” for the simple purpose of asking whether anybody knew of any reading material that dealt with Hindu (Vedic) morality. It sparked a discussion that went beyond my question, and I thought I should start a thread that was more directly for that purpose of discussion.

So here is where Christians and Hindus can come and discuss their respective religions, for the purpose of appreciating any similarities, as well as understanding the differences - and hopefully everyone coming to a better understanding of Truth and Ultimate Reality.

Here is my viewpoint, which will begin the discussion:

I am a Catholic, and all you must do to understand my faith in a nutshell is look at the Apostle’s Creed, or the longer Nicene Creed. But here are some points I will focus on in this post:

-I believe that God created everything in existence, seen or unseen, and that He is not what He created, yet is present in everything.
-I believe that Man is the highest natural being He created, with a rational soul, and therefore is more valuable than animal and plant life.
-I believe that Jesus Christ opened up - through His death and resurrection - the way to God, and that without Him no one can come to God. THIS IS WHILE ACKNOWLEDGING that the truth found in other religions can lead, if sincerely followed, to Jesus Christ and the fullness of truth found in Christianity. People of good will who sincerely seek God and follow their consciences can be saved through Christ even if they haven’t heard of Him.

There’s a start.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I started a thread entitled “Hinduism” for the simple purpose of asking whether anybody knew of any reading material that dealt with Hindu (Vedic) morality. It sparked a discussion that went beyond my question, and I thought I should start a thread that was more directly for that purpose of discussion.

So here is where Christians and Hindus can come and discuss their respective religions, for the purpose of appreciating any similarities, as well as understanding the differences - and hopefully everyone coming to a better understanding of Truth and Ultimate Reality.

Here is my viewpoint, which will begin the discussion:

I am a Catholic, and all you must do to understand my faith in a nutshell is look at the Apostle’s Creed, or the longer Nicene Creed. But here are some points I will focus on in this post:

-I believe that God created everything in existence, seen or unseen, and that He is not what He created, yet is present in everything.
-I believe that Man is the highest natural being He created, with a rational soul, and therefore is more valuable than animal and plant life.
-I believe that Jesus Christ opened up - through His death and resurrection - the way to God, and that without Him no one can come to God. THIS IS WHILE ACKNOWLEDGING that the truth found in other religions can lead, if sincerely followed, to Jesus Christ and the fullness of truth found in Christianity. People of good will who sincerely seek God and follow their consciences can be saved through Christ even if they haven’t heard of Him.

There’s a start.

No problem.
The last sentences I would modify. It is not that Hindhuism leads to Christ for Hindhus are born, grow up, reproduce and die without knowing Him.
It is that they are saved through Jesus Christ. How are they judged? I would not care less. It is Christ’s business and He is the Master and the Wisdom and theTruth.

 

[desales09]

Pfaffenhoffen said: “No problem.
The last sentences I would modify. It is not that Hindhuism leads to Christ for Hindhus are born, grow up, reproduce and die without knowing Him.
It is that they are saved through Jesus Christ.”

I agree - but I didn’t say that Hinduism leads to Christ, I said that the truth found in Hinduism (and in other religions) can lead one to Christ, for He is “the way, the truth, and the life.” This is a good quote from the second Vatican counsel:

“The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many.aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to himself.”

As Jimmy Akin said in reference to these words, it implies there are aspects of Hinduism (and other religions) not in accordance with Christ and Christianity. I was referring to the parts that are in accordance.

 

[Ahimsa]

Satguru Bodhinatha talks about some differences between Hinduism and Christianity. He talks about differences that are really obvious when comparing Hinduism with “faith-only” Protestantism.

Also: “Hindu-Christian Point-Counterpoint” (created with the help of the editors of the Protestant evangelical magazine Christianity Today).

 

[Ahimsa]

What Can We Learn from Hinduism : Recovering the Mystical, by Marcus Braybrooke.

 

[John7]

So here is where Christians and Hindus can come and discuss their respective religions, for the purpose of appreciating any similarities, as well as understanding the differences - and hopefully everyone coming to a better understanding of Truth and Ultimate Reality.

have question:
according to Hindus, how many times (ball park figure if possible)
was Jesus’ soul reincarnated, (or how many transmigrations did he make)
before he, as the Son of God, walked the earth?
Could he ever have been a plant or animal in a past life?

 

[Sufjon]

have question:
according to Hindus, how many times (ball park figure if possible)
was Jesus’ soul reincarnated, (or how many transmigrations did he make)
before he, as the Son of God, walked the earth?
Could he ever have been a plant or animal in a past life?

That’s an interesting idea, but not many Hindus would care to delve too far into the past lives of Jesus. Because Jesus was an Avatar, He was a direct incarnation of God in human modern human form. Avatars prior to those like Ram, Krishna and Jesus followed the evolutionary path from fish and upward through the evolutionary chain, dependent on what sorts of beings were present at the time of their appearance. Interesting to note this understanding of the evolutionary process thousands of years before Darwin. Avatars are generally thought to be incarnations of Vishnu, who is the sustaining aspect of the Hindu trinity. At least one appearance of God in human form was an appearance of Shiva, and this appearance was in the form of a Neanderthal.

Of course Hindu theology is a bit trickier than that, because while Avatars are God in human form, so are all beings expressions of God in whatever form they take, and this would include you and me. The difference between them and us? Avatars possess the full realization of what they are. They have fully awakened consciousness and this consciousness is alternately referred to as the Christ Consciousness, or Christ Katashtha, or Kutastha Chaitanya. It was the Christ within Jesus who said that no one comes to the father except through Him. We come to the father by awakening the Christ Kutashtha within us, and when this happens it is the second coming, which happens at a different time and place for each being, customarily humans, however it should be remembered that humans are a work in progress. Evolution continues. Everything we speak of in regards to ourselves occurred in the last second of the last minute of the last hour of our evolutionary day. While you might look at yourself and think in a rather satisfied way that you will get your body back at the end of days, it should be taken into consideration that you are supposing that you will be getting back the body of a modern human, which in 200,000 years will no longer be a modern human, because the bodies you and I wear at this moment are are just an evolutionary step. Conversely, a Hindu would suppose that we will be living out the life of a modern human 200,000 years from now, who may or may not have achieved full realization at that point. I would have to say that these practical considerations of modern science can be rather problematic in mainstream Christian thinking at times. In religion we all talk about eternity a lot. Eternity is quite an expansive amount of time.

All this said, there are Hindu Rishis who have mentioned the incarnation Jesus took on in the life prior to the His appearance as Jesus, and these Rishis have said that this was probably Elisha and that John the Baptist was Elijah. They intuit that they had followed one another through various lifetimes, evolving spiritually, until in His lifetime as Jesus, Elisha finally became the master of His teacher Elijah (John the Baptist). This is rather interesting, because Jesus tells us in Matthew 11 that John the Baptist is the Prophet Elijah.

It’s an interesting idea you’ve brought up. It was never much of an interest to me, because only a fully realized being can look at you and tell you where you’ve been and where you’re going, and Sufjon as you can well imagine is not a fully realized being. I am just another work in progress among countless others scattered across the cosmos.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Tomek]

An avatar is usually some “part” of the Divine essence that manifests itself on Earth. Jesus is not mere a part, but the fullness of the Divine Being.

 

[LayingHands]

An avatar is usually some “part” of the Divine essence that manifests itself on Earth. Jesus is not mere a part, but the fullness of the Divine Being.

Avatars are GOD, descended to this earth, to correct some specific demonic problems. All of GOD’s Avataras in the 5,000 years old scripture book, Bhagavad-Gita As it is… saved the (vedas) holy scriptures and or performed certain miracles. GOD has many, many names and has descended many, many other representatives, to this planet,

Our Lord Jesus Christ is a Son of GOD and therefore, was GOD’s Representative descended by GOD, to remind all humanity of GOD’s laws of nature, method for salvation and liberation of GOD’s RELIGION. In this 5,000 year old scripture, GOD relayed all of his directions and instructions of how we are to live this human life, so we may become worthy by him, to return back to him after this death…back to GODHEAD.

 

[Ahimsa]

An avatar is usually some “part” of the Divine essence that manifests itself on Earth. Jesus is not mere a part, but the fullness of the Divine Being.

Among devotees of Vishnu, avatars are commonly classified into two broad groups. Some avatars are a “partial” manifestation of Vishnu, exhibiting a portion of the Being-Consciousness-Bliss of Vishnu. Other avatars (like Krishna) are the “fullest” manifestation/incarnation/descent of Vishnu, exhibiting the fullest Being-Consciousness-Bliss.

 

[Tomek]

Avatars are GOD, descended to this earth, to correct some specific demonic problems. All of GOD’s Avataras in the 5,000 years old scripture book, Bhagavad-Gita As it is… saved the (vedas) holy scriptures and or performed certain miracles. GOD has many, many names and has descended many, many other representatives, to this planet,

The idea you just presented is a pretty common one. Many societies believed God(s) made regular visits to humanity. Often times they were heroes, who with the passage of time become great deities of worship. Therefore, you would find whole pantheons of Gods, Incarnation, Avatars, etc, being adored by various societies.

Judaism was a bit of an aberration in all of this. For the Jews believed in only one God. The “Gods” the various pagans worshiped were either figments of their imagination (at best,) or fallen preternatural-beings that wielded real power (at worst!) God’s ordinary interaction was through chosen Prophets whom He sent bearing signs. For the most part, the transcendent gap between us and God was rarely bridged, except for certain events (e.g. Moses and the burning bush), or certain places (e.g. God’s presence above the ark of the covenant.) The transcendence and greatness of God was always remembered, and His imminence was mostly hidden, save through the great recorded miracles.

We learn of course that this “gap” between man and God did not always exist. In fact, man was created in an intimate union with God, that was intended to be spread to all of humanity. As revelation about our origins tells us, this union was ruptured through sin. And so fallen man’s interaction with God was always limited. This of course changed with the coming of Jesus Christ, who restored the original union of God, and in fact, made an even greater union possible.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is a Son of GOD

He revealed Himself as The Son of God. And that’s something very different.

Jesus revealed himself as the culmination of revelation to mankind (Mark 12:7). He is the Eternal Logos, the very Word of God, and as many Fathers of the Church have said, once God proclaimed His Word, there was nothing left to say.

and therefore, was GOD’s Representative descended by GOD, to remind all humanity of GOD’s laws of nature,

Jesus proceeded from God, and existed before time began. He wasn’t merely God’s representative, He was, and is, the fullness of God. Not just a “part,” or even the “greatest of parts,” but the fullness of Divinity. That is the awe and depth of the Trinity and Hypostatic Union!

method for salvation and liberation of GOD’s RELIGION.

Not simply a method, but the only means for salvation. All salvation is through Him, with out him, it is absolutely impossible to be saved.

In this 5,000 year old scripture, GOD relayed all of his directions and instructions of how we are to live this human life, so we may become worthy by him, to return back to him after this death…back to GODHEAD.

As the great Apostle Paul so eloquently put it, if justice be by the law, then Christ died in vain.

In Christ through Mary,
Tomek

 

[Sufjon]

T

he idea you just presented is a pretty common one. Many societies believed God(s) made regular visits to humanity. Often times they were heroes, who with the passage of time become great deities of worship. Therefore, you would find whole pantheons of Gods, Incarnation, Avatars, etc, being adored by various societies.

I cannot say that I am overly familiar with all of the world’s religions. Which religions (other than Hinduism) have Avatars?

J

udaism was a bit of an aberration in all of this. For the Jews believed in only one God.

Hinduism has one God.

For the most part, the transcendent gap between us and God was rarely bridged, except for certain events (e.g. Moses and the burning bush), or certain places (e.g. God’s presence above the ark of the covenant.)

A gap being between God and humankind is a Christian belief. You are applying this gap to a proclamation of how other faiths fail to bridge this Christian understanding of a gap that never really existed in Hinduism and a Christian remedy which is only need by those who perceive a gap.

The transcendence and greatness of God was always remembered, and His imminence was mostly hidden, save through the great recorded miracles.

It is hidden by the illusion of separateness, which also gave rise to the gap you are talking about.

We learn of course that this “gap” between man and God did not always exist.

Yes, it probably started in the five books of the Torah. The gap between humankind and God is the idea of separateness that is pervasive in Abrahamic thought.

In fact, man was created in an intimate union with God, that was intended to be spread to all of humanity. As revelation about our origins tells us, this union was ruptured through sin.

God doesn’t make plans that go afoul.

He revealed Himself as The Son of God. And that’s something very different.

How so? We are all God’s children, so to say that Jesus is the Son of God either means that we are not His children and only Jesus was, or the idea of Son of God diminishes what Jesus was by making Him a sibling to the rest of us. Born by this means or that, we are all creations of God.

Jesus revealed himself as the culmination of revelation to mankind (Mark 12:7). He is the Eternal Logos, the very Word of God, and as many Fathers of the Church have said, once God proclaimed His Word, there was nothing left to say.

As was also the case with the other Avatars.

Jesus proceeded from God, and existed before time began.

So have you and I.

He wasn’t merely God’s representative, He was, and is, the fullness of God. Not just a “part,” or even the “greatest of parts,” but the fullness of Divinity. That is the awe and depth of the Trinity and Hypostatic Union!

Not different from the other Avatars, so how is Jesus different. They were all the One God in human form.

Not simply a method, but the only means for salvation. All salvation is through Him, with out him, it is absolutely impossible to be saved.

Krishna said the same thing.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Tomek]

T
I cannot say that I am overly familiar with all of the world’s religions. Which religions (other than Hinduism) have Avatars?

I was responding in a broader sense. Many societies have believed that God(s) in some way have manifested and walked amongst men.

Hinduism has one God.

I think that is an overstatement. What we call “Hinduism” is really an umbrella term for numerous religions of India. There is a great deal of variety when it comes to Hindu beliefs, and this includes polytheism. Consider this passage from the Nasadiya Sukta of the Rig Veda:

"Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?

I’m curious though, what verses in the Hindu scriptures reveal a monotheistic perspective?

A gap being between God and humankind is a Christian belief. You are applying this gap to a proclamation of how other faiths fail to bridge this Christian understanding of a gap that never really existed in Hinduism and a Christian remedy which is only need by those who perceive a gap.

It’s also the belief of Jews and Muslims who don’t share a pantheistic world view. For us, God created ex nihilo, “out of nothing.” Thus there is a real distinction between Creator and creature, and this distinction is where the “gap” lies. Understanding this brings a totally new perspective to spirituality. Once you realize you are not god, or even a part of god, you must begin the quest to unite with God. Christ is the means of this union, and hopefully you will recognize that one day.

It is hidden by the illusion of separateness, which also gave rise to the gap you are talking about.

Many people behave like they are god, and I think they are the one’s living an illusion. God is very different from us, He is not finite, nor ignorant, nor weak. We have a beginning, and have a mortal end.

God doesn’t make plans that go afoul.

Who said it wasn’t part of God’s plan?

How so? We are all God’s children, so to say that Jesus is the Son of God either means that we are not His children and only Jesus was, or the idea of Son of God diminishes what Jesus was by making Him a sibling to the rest of us. Born by this means or that, we are all creations of God.

The Sonship of Jesus is not the same as our sonship. He is the Son because He proceeds from the Father, and bears the same Divine Nature. They are therefore One Being. This is why to characterize Jesus as “a son” misses the mark. What He is and was is unique, uncreatable, and unrepeatable. Our sonship is one of adoption. After being restored, and being made as members of Christ’s mystical body, we too become sons of God.

As was also the case with the other Avatars.

So you believe a multiplicity of Avatars claimed to be the end of God’s revelation? How does this make logical sense to you? Secondly, can you quote actual passages from Hindu scriptures that support this idea, I’d be curious to know.

So have you and I.

If you proceeded from God then you are God, and we both know that’s not true. You and I did not always exist. We started out as a single cell in our mother’s womb, and God created our soul out of nothing as He created the world out of nothing.

Not different from the other Avatars, so how is Jesus different. They were all the One God in human form

As mentioned earlier, Hindu belief is not uniform. Not all Hindus share your understanding of the word “Avatar.” To answer better I would have have to more about what you believe. Is Vishnu equal to Shiva, or is one greater? Are the Avatars of Shiva equal to the Avatars of Vishnu? Are the avatars of Vishnu equal to each other? In what sense do you believe God is one? How do you believe God took on human form?

Let’s start there, and then we will continue.

Krishna said the same thing.

Either Jesus or Krishna spoke falsely. I will be sticking with Jesus, let God decide who was right.

Your friend
Sufjon

Peace

 

[Sufjon]

I

was responding in a broader sense. Many societies have believed that God(s) in some way have manifested and walked amongst men.

And I have no doubt that He has.

I think that is an overstatement. What we call “Hinduism” is really an umbrella term for numerous religions of India.

What you call Hinduism is really a western term for Sanatana Dharma. It is rather a misnomer, however, we are not sticklers about such things.

There is a great deal of variety when it comes to Hindu beliefs, and this includes polytheism. Consider this passage from the Nasadiya Sukta of the Rig Veda:

"Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?

They are all expression of One God. This is clearly spelled out on the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita. These texts speak of God as the Singularity from which all things emanate. I do not say that you are polytheistic because you believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I understand that you believe in one god expressed as three.However, to someone who took no care to learn much about your faith would just dismiss your ramblings about a Trinity as just polytheism. If I were to do that to you, then you would get some sense of what you are trying to say to me. Hinduism had a Trinity long before Christianity did. Perhaps Christianity borrowed the idea from us. Or perhaps they are both valid revelations about a God who is endless in His expressions throughout the cosmos.

I’m curious though, what verses in the Hindu scriptures reveal a monotheistic perspective?

Clearly expressed in the Ramayana, Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita. It is thematic through all three works.

It’s also the belief of Jews and Muslims who don’t share a pantheistic world view. For us, God created ex nihilo, “out of nothing.” Thus there is a real distinction between Creator and creature, and this distinction is where the “gap” lies. Understanding this brings a totally new perspective to spirituality. Once you realize you are not god, or even a part of god, you must begin the quest to unite with God. Christ is the means of this union, and hopefully you will recognize that one day.

Tell me if you would,which object, particle, system or subsystem in the universe exists as something in and of it;self, independently of the whole? What atom is not made of particles, and what molecule is not made of atoms, and what cell is not made of molecules, what organ is not made of cells, what body is not made of organs, and what body is not more emptiness between the particles that make it up than particles? What sentient organism regenerates it’s cells without the intake of cells from the plants around it, and what plants grow without the soil? What blood flows that is not oxygenated by what is breathed into the lungs? Tell me if you would where in fact does one thing begin and another end? What thing does not emanate from a Singularity? All things are a succession of endless permutations of a singularity that occurred over 11 billion years ago, and these singularities seem to happen all the time, in that creation is a perennial process that never ends. Any religion that wants to continue to be taken seriously in the next 50 to 100 years will have to come to terms with these facts.

Many people behave like they are god, and I think they are the one’s living an illusion. God is very different from us, He is not finite, nor ignorant, nor weak. We have a beginning, and have a mortal end.

Neither are you finite, or weak and ignorance is the original sin. Ignorance of the fact that you are an essential part of the whole is why people see themselves as separate. This is why Jesus said when I was hungry you didn’t feed me and when I was naked you didn’t cloth me. What exactly did you think He was saying when He said that? He was saying that if you fail to see God in yourself and in others then you will simply fail to see God, because that is where He is to be found.

The Sonship of Jesus is not the same as our sonship. He is the Son because He proceeds from the Father, and bears the same Divine Nature.

And where did you proceed from?

They are therefore One Being. This is why to characterize Jesus as “a son” misses the mark.

Yes it does. So why do you all use that term so much?

What He is and was is unique, uncreatable, and unrepeatable.

We are all unique and unrepeatable.

Continued…

 

[Sufjon]

Part two…

Our sonship is one of adoption. After being restored, and being made as members of Christ’s mystical body, we too become sons of God.

Until such a time, we are sons of what? What do you think made you? Of course I suppose you’ll say that we are poor banished children of Eve, but that thinking is flawed in that God created Eve, and therefore is the creator of you as well. It is also flawed thinking because to say that God made all things but then has to adopt you sounds rather convoluted.

So you believe a multiplicity of Avatars claimed to be the end of God’s revelation? How does this make logical sense to you? Secondly, can you quote actual passages from Hindu scriptures that support this idea, I’d be curious to know.

I believe in Avatars who are God in human form. I believe that Jesus was one of these. And there is no end in God’s revelation. There is no beginning and no end. World without end, amen you might say.

I

f you proceeded from God then you are God, and we both know that’s not true.

Where then did we proceed from? Listen, either God is the creator of all things or He is not. If He is not then you shouldn’t waste your time on Him.

You and I did not always exist. We started out as a single cell in our mother’s womb, and God created our soul out of nothing as He created the world out of nothing.

And the single cell stated because of the joining of a sperm cell and an egg, and the sperm cell was manufactured from a body, which was made from others cells, and so on back to the start of creation.

As mentioned earlier, Hindu belief is not uniform. Not all Hindus share your understanding of the word “Avatar.”

It would appear that way if you didn’t know much about it.

To answer better I would have have to more about what you believe. Is Vishnu equal to Shiva, or is one greater? Are the Avatars of Shiva equal to the Avatars of Vishnu? Are the avatars of Vishnu equal to each other? In what sense do you believe God is one? How do you believe God took on human form?

What is greater - the leaves, the branches, the trunk or the roots? The potential of each is realized in conjunction with the whole. The potential of none of the parts is realized or existent outside of the whole. None is greater and none is lesser.

Either Jesus or Krishna spoke falsely. I will be sticking with Jesus, let God decide who was right.

Since what the two of them said was the same, then the conclusion is that they are both false or both right. The more logical conclusion is that they are both manifestations of the same thing.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[LayingHands]

The idea you just presented is a pretty common one. Many societies believed God(s) made regular visits to humanity. Often times they were heroes, who with the passage of time become great deities of worship. Therefore, you would find whole pantheons of Gods, Incarnation, Avatars, etc, being adored by various societies.

Judaism was a bit of an aberration in all of this. For the Jews believed in only one God. The “Gods” the various pagans worshiped were either figments of their imagination (at best,) or fallen preternatural-beings that wielded real power (at worst!) God’s ordinary interaction was through chosen Prophets whom He sent bearing signs. For the most part, the transcendent gap between us and God was rarely bridged, except for certain events (e.g. Moses and the burning bush), or certain places (e.g. God’s presence above the ark of the covenant.) The transcendence and greatness of God was always remembered, and His imminence was mostly hidden, save through the great recorded miracles.

We learn of course that this “gap” between man and God did not always exist. In fact, man was created in an intimate union with God, that was intended to be spread to all of humanity. As revelation about our origins tells us, this union was ruptured through sin. And so fallen man’s interaction with God was always limited. This of course changed with the coming of Jesus Christ, who restored the original union of God, and in fact, made an even greater union possible.

He revealed Himself as The Son of God. And that’s something very different.

Jesus revealed himself as the culmination of revelation to mankind (Mark 12:7). He is the Eternal Logos, the very Word of God, and as many Fathers of the Church have said, once God proclaimed His Word, there was nothing left to say.

Jesus proceeded from God, and existed before time began. He wasn’t merely God’s representative, He was, and is, the fullness of God. Not just a “part,” or even the “greatest of parts,” but the fullness of Divinity. That is the awe and depth of the Trinity and Hypostatic Union!

Not simply a method, but the only means for salvation. All salvation is through Him, with out him, it is absolutely impossible to be saved.

As the great Apostle Paul so eloquently put it, if justice be by the law, then Christ died in vain.

In Christ through Mary,
Tomek

The Science of GOD, or The Science of Self-Realization (Bhagavad-gita AS IT IS) was written over 5,000 years ago, when GOD descended to earth, again. He (and he it is, as GOD is the seed bearer which began ALL life, with a glance, after his Creation of the Entire Cosmic Manisfistation…these holy scriptures…being far more ancient than any other known religious written history…is GOD’s Absolute Supreme Truth of the Science of GOD.

GOD says “Always think of Me. Become My devotee, Worship Me, and offer your homage unto Me. The result is that you will come to Me without fail, I promise you this because you are my very dear friend. Engage your mind always thinking of Me, engage your body in My service and surrender unto Me. Completely absorbed in Me, surely will you come to Me.”

Of course, there never was, has never been nor ever will anyone, BE LIKE GOD. Nothing common about GOD or The Science of GOD!

All modern religions and those oldest in our human societies today are approximately 2,000 years old…I believe the first written Testament appeared 200 years, after Jesus ascened to the Heavens…tell me, who was the first Christian Testament written and provided by?

GOD and humanity became ruptured through “forgetfulness”. GOD allows humanity to forget him…as any Father who fulfills their Children, GOD hears your thoughts and wants and grants you your desires, thoughts and wills. That became the “SIN” - Humanity wanted to Forget GOD, forget his rules and material nature laws, so they could live freely and sinfully.

When this forgetfulness, irreligousness or separation from GOD occurs within humanity, GOD descends again. He descended 5,000 years ago to relay the knowledg of this Science of GOD, to be written and preached to all humanity, for their liberation and salvation…to gain spiritual knowledge of how all humanity…could return to him, GODHEAD.

GOD says “This Supreme Science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in the course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is, appears to be lost. That very ancient science of the relationship with the Supreme is today told by me to you because you are My devotee, as well as My friend; therefore, you can understand the transcendental mystery of this Science”

In the scriptures, GOD can be and is contacted directly…because he is seated in the Heart of Every Living Entity. He is seated as that minute particle which gave you eternal life, known as your Spirit Soul. Know this…GOD is the SuperSoul and he created humanity in his image and traits…however, we fail to follow GOD’s rules and laws as described in the Science of GOD.

GOD says " All that you do, all that you eat, all that you offer and give away, as well as all austerities that you may perform, should be done as an offering unto Me"

In the Bible, Jesus Christ says he is the Son of GOD…here too, GOD says and claims Jesus Christ as his Son? Why would this be contradictory to you?

 

[Tomek]

I
What you call Hinduism is really a western term for Sanatana Dharma. It is rather a misnomer, however, we are not sticklers about such things.

Which branch of Hinduism do you follow? I think knowing your background would be helpful in this discussion, especially since Hindu belief is so divergent.

They are all expression of One God. This is clearly spelled out on the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita. These texts speak of God as the Singularity from which all things emanate.

Where specifically do they say this? Perhaps you could share some key examples.

I do not say that you are polytheistic because you believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I understand that you believe in one god expressed as three.However, to someone who took no care to learn much about your faith would just dismiss your ramblings about a Trinity as just polytheism. If I were to do that to you, then you would get some sense of what you are trying to say to me.

God is not “expressed” as three in Christianity. Rather, God is The Persons. I know this may seem subtle, but there really is vast casm between something expressing, and something being.

Regarding the Trinity, it’s not polytheism for a simple reason. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all possess the same Divine Nature. If three humans possessed the same nature, i.e. the same intellect, the same will, the same memory, then they too would be one being. This is why to label the Trinity “polytheism” is a gross misunderstanding.

Now with regards to Hinduism, I’m trying to understand how all deities are one. I explained how the Three Persons are one in Christianity, and now I’m trying to do the same for Hinduism. I think the closest I understand it stems off pantheism. Since God is all things, in some sense the gods, and yes, even humans and other creatures, are all united as one god. But I know not all Hindus share such a view. Perhaps you could share your understanding with us?

Hinduism had a Trinity long before Christianity did. Perhaps Christianity borrowed the idea from us. Or perhaps they are both valid revelations about a God who is endless in His expressions throughout the cosmos.

Who is “us” exactly? Your branch of Hinduism? The idea of triad of deities is not at all uniform among Hindus, and even among those that hold such a concept, there is no consensus over what deities make up the triad.

One common view focuses on the cosmic balance between creation, maintenance, and destruction. And three deities commonly personified with this are Vishnu, Brahma, Maheshwara. Now how these beings relate to one another is not at all clear. Some do believe are “expressions” of the one Supreme God, Brahma. But others, like the Vashnavites believe Vishnu to be the Supreme God, and other gods subordinate to Him.In Shaivism, Shiva is Supreme and Brahma and expression of Shiva! As you can see, there is WHOLE LOT of disagreement here. It’s very difficult to even begin to press the idea of a Hindu “trinity,” let alone that Christians supposedly borrowed it (kind of hard to do when even Hindus can’t agree on it’s definition.)

Clearly expressed in the Ramayana, Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita. It is thematic through all three works.

Again, any specific quotes?

Tell me if you would,which object, particle, system or subsystem in the universe exists as something in and of it;self, independently of the whole? What atom is not made of particles, and what molecule is not made of atoms, and what cell is not made of molecules, what organ is not made of cells, what body is not made of organs, and what body is not more emptiness between the particles that make it up than particles?

Yes, things in the universe are inter-connected, but at the same time they are independent and distinct. The cell does not equal the man, but a man is made up of cells.

Tell me if you would where in fact does one thing begin and another end?

Is this a hard question? Look at a human person, can tell the difference between a person and humanity?

All things are a succession of endless permutations of a singularity that occurred over 11 billion years ago, and these singularities seem to happen all the time, in that creation is a perennial process that never ends.

Creation does have an end my friend, and science is well aware of this. Eventually entropy will over take all things.

Any religion that wants to continue to be taken seriously in the next 50 to 100 years will have to come to terms with these facts.

Of the few facts you mentioned, I’m not aware of any religion that contradicts them.

Neither are you finite, or weak and ignorance is the original sin. Ignorance of the fact that you are an essential part of the whole is why people see themselves as separate. This is why Jesus said when I was hungry you didn’t feed me and when I was naked you didn’t cloth me. What exactly did you think He was saying when He said that? He was saying that if you fail to see God in yourself and in others then you will simply fail to see God, because that is where He is to be found.

Jesus was not teaching pantheism in that verse, although it is true, that in just the Spirit of Christ makes home in their hearts. The point is that ultimately we will be judged on how we treat one another. Even the non just are made in the image in the likeness of God (note, they’re not God!), and mistreating anyone is like mistreating God.

And where did you proceed from?

From nothing.

Yes it does. So why do you all use that term so much?

Because He is The Son.

We are all unique and unrepeatable.

Yes, this is true, but since we all share a similar nature, many things within us are repeatable.

 

[Tomek]

Part two…
Until such a time, we are sons of what? What do you think made you? Of course I suppose you’ll say that we are poor banished children of Eve, but that thinking is flawed in that God created Eve, and therefore is the creator of you as well. It is also flawed thinking because to say that God made all things but then has to adopt you sounds rather convoluted.

Christians are well aware God is the ultimate cause of all things, but we also believe in secondary causes. In other words God can act directly, as well as indirectly. Thus, it is just as true to say my parents made me, as it is to say God made me.

Regarding “adoption,” it’s not really that hard to understand. There is a real difference between Creator and creation. A special grace from God is what allows humans (creation) to unite with God (Creator.) Adoption refers to the highest level of unity brought by Christ, which surpasses servitude and makes of children and heirs of God. Thank you Jesus!

I believe in Avatars who are God in human form. I believe that Jesus was one of these. And there is no end in God’s revelation. There is no beginning and no end. World without end, amen you might say.

If you really believe this then I encourage you to meditate on the words and actions of our Lord.

Where then did we proceed from? Listen, either God is the creator of all things or He is not. If He is not then you shouldn’t waste your time on Him.

Materially speaking we proceed from the conjugal union of our parents, but ultimately we proceed from nothing. God willed us into existence, and His will sustains us, otherwise we would return to what we were before… nothing…

The soul we possess is spiritual, and that was immediately created by God out of nothing at the moment of our conception.

And the single cell stated because of the joining of a sperm cell and an egg, and the sperm cell was manufactured from a body, which was made from others cells, and so on back to the start of creation.

Key word is “start.” Ultimately there was a beginning, and what ever brought space, time and matter into existence… had to be beyond them, in other words, it had to be supernatural (supra “beyond”] + natural)

What is greater - the leaves, the branches, the trunk or the roots? The potential of each is realized in conjunction with the whole. The potential of none of the parts is realized or existent outside of the whole. None is greater and none is lesser.

This is your personal opinion. MANY Hindus would disagree with you. The branch of Hinduism centering around Vishnu (i.e. Vaishnavism) regards Vishnu as the supreme deity. And this is just one example…

Since what the two of them said was the same, then the conclusion is that they are both false or both right. The more logical conclusion is that they are both manifestations of the same thing.

Let’s discuss this a bit. What did they say that was the same? What did they say that was different?

 

[Tomek]

The Science of GOD, or The Science of Self-Realization I believe the first written Testament appeared 200 years, after Jesus ascened to the Heavens…tell me, who was the first Christian Testament written and provided by?

Depends what you mean by “NT.” Even modern scholars accept that the books of the NT were written within the first century. The Gospels were written a few decades after Jesus lived, and they serve as remarkable testimony to His life.

What textual support do we have for any of the Hindu scriptures? Do you know?

 

[LayingHands]

Depends what you mean by “NT.” Even modern scholars accept that the books of the NT were written within the first century. The Gospels were written a few decades after Jesus lived, and they serve as remarkable testimony to His life.

What textual support do we have for any of the Hindu scriptures? Do you know?

I believe it was the First Epistle of Clement in the late 100 century, in a letter addressed to the Christians in the city of Corinth, as it ranks as the earliest extant Christian documents outside the canonical New Testament, still over 100 years from the rising of Father GOD’s rising to heaven.

The first New Testament dealt explicitly with first century christianity, then during the BEGINNING of the 2nd century, St. (Bishop) Irenanus* canonized the gospels of Mathew, Mark, John and Luke…and were asserted by Irenaeus of Lyon (Gaul), France, in the LATE 2nd century as THE Four Gospels, (almost another 100 years), which were gradually joined to other collections…

It is difficult to believe The Patriarchs of Antioch, as the controlling Patriarchs over the Bishops of Syria, Palestine, Armenia, Georgia, Mesopotamia and India, had not submitted scripture, to create the New Testament, during their lives in power…this timeline follows: Jesus Christ rose to the Heavens, between 30AD and 36AD…

It is believed all the Apostles had passed from this earth by 70AD…

The Patriarchs of Antioch were Peter the Apostle CA 37 to CA 53, Evodius CA 53 to CA 69, Ignatius CA 70 to CA 107, Heron CA 107 to CA 127, Cornelius CA127 to CA154, etc.

The most confusing event in early Christian history, is the change of the Old Roman Creed, whereby GOD is the One Almightty GOD, lCreator and Jesus Christ as his created SON…

To the doctrine Creed as created by Tertullian during the 2nd century, whereby, Jesus Christ becomes GOD as GOD, SON and Holy Spirit, 3 persons, one substance…due to the threat of the Arian (Arius) doctrine…Tertullian, founder of Western theology, Father of Latin Christianity, not only originated and advanced this Tripartite structure, but was responsible for the written use of the latin term, TRINITY, and gave this oldest extant formal exposition, of a Trinitarian theology…his Trinity Creed (Correct belief) occurred during the 2nd century, several years, after the rising of Jesus…