Christianity and Vedism (Hinduism)

[Tomek]

Ok, you mentioned a lot here, most of it irrelevant. But let’s take a look at what you wrote.

I believe it was the First Epistle of Clement in the late 100 century, in a letter addressed to the Christians in the city of Corinth, as it ranks as the earliest extant Christian documents outside the canonical New Testament, still over 100 years from the rising of Father GOD’s rising to heaven

I don’t see what point you’re trying to make by mentioning the first Epistle of Clement, but you are pretty close, it was written in 96 AD, around the same time St John was said to have passed to the next life.

Keep in mind that Jesus died around 33 AD, and thus Clement’s Epistle was written some 70 years after His death and resurrection. That is still within living memory of Jesus Christ.

How soon was the Bhagvataghita written down in relation to the events it supposedly records. Do you know?

The first New Testament dealt explicitly with first century christianity, then during the BEGINNING of the 2nd century, St. (Bishop) Irenanus* canonized the gospels of Mathew, Mark, John and Luke…and were asserted by Irenaeus of Lyon (Gaul), France, in the LATE 2nd century as THE Four Gospels, (almost another 100 years), which were gradually joined to other collections…

Irenaneus didn’t “canonize” the gospels, he merely put to writing what was already known by his time. That the four gospels (among other writings) were recognized as canonical.

Again, note the antiquity of the Gospels and how early they are written in relation to Jesus. Do Hindus have anything even remotely comparable to the textual veracity of the Gospels?

It is difficult to believe The Patriarchs of Antioch, as the controlling Patriarchs over the Bishops of Syria, Palestine, Armenia, Georgia, Mesopotamia and India, had not submitted scripture, to create the New Testament, during their lives in power…this timeline follows: Jesus Christ rose to the Heavens, between 30AD and 36AD…

Point?

It is believed all the Apostles had passed from this earth by 70AD…

Believed by who? St John is said to have died near the close of the first century.

The Patriarchs of Antioch were Peter the Apostle CA 37 to CA 53, Evodius CA 53 to CA 69, Ignatius CA 70 to CA 107, Heron CA 107 to CA 127, Cornelius CA127 to CA154, etc.

Point?

The most confusing event in early Christian history, is the change of the Old Roman Creed, whereby GOD is the One Almightty GOD, lCreator and Jesus Christ as his created SON…

There is no Creed that makes Jesus out to be a “created son.”

To the doctrine Creed as created by Tertullian during the 2nd century, whereby, Jesus Christ becomes GOD as GOD, SON and Holy Spirit, 3 persons, one substance…due to the threat of the Arian (Arius) doctrine…Tertullian, founder of Western theology, Father of Latin Christianity, not only originated and advanced this Tripartite structure, but was responsible for the written use of the latin term, TRINITY, and gave this oldest extant formal exposition, of a Trinitarian theology…his Trinity Creed (Correct belief) occurred during the 2nd century, several years, after the rising of Jesus…

How could Tertullian “create” a doctrine to combat Arius, when he died before Arius as even born? Friend, you really need to do more research.

We have no need to go so far as Tertullian anyway, simply read the inspired prologue of St John’s gospel, and there you will find clear proof for the Son’s divinity, and substantial unity with the Father.

Oh and btw… what do you know of the Hindu “trinity”? Are you aware of it’s development?

 

[Sufjon]

Where specifically do they say this? Perhaps you could share some key examples.

The idea of one God is throughout just about all of the Upanishads, so I just picked one at random:

Note: The Upanishads are sacred Hindu scripture and not limited to this sect or that. If you are Hindu, then you prescribe to the Upanishads. There is no need to ask someone if they are a Vaisnavite or Shaivite or this Hindu or that, because all follow the Upanishads, and the Upanishads declare throughout that there is one God.

This is the Shvetashvatara Upanishad. It’s a nice short one. Full of the references you asked for:

Disciples inquire within themselves:

What is the cause of this universe?—is it Brahman? Whence do we come? Why do we live? Where shall we at last find rest? Under whose command are we bound by the law of happiness and its opposite?

Time, space, law, chance, matter, primal energy, intelligence—none of these, nor a combination of these, can be the final cause of the universe, for they are effects, and exist to serve the soul. Nor can the individual self be the cause, for, being subject to the law of happiness and misery, it is not free.

The seers, absorbed in contemplation, saw within themselves the ultimate reality, the self-luminous being, the one God, who dwells as the self-conscious power in all creatures. He is One without a second. Deep within all beings he dwells, hidden from sight by the coverings of the gunas —sattwa, rajas, and tamas. He presides over time, space, and all apparent causes.

This vast universe is a wheel. Upon it are all creatures that are subject to birth, death, and rebirth. Round and round it turns, and never stops. It is the wheel of Brahman. As long as the individual self thinks it is separate from Brahman, it revolves upon the wheel in bondage to the laws of birth, death, and rebirth. But when through the grace of Brahman it realizes its identity with him, it revolves upon the wheel no longer. It achieves immortality.’

He who is realized by transcending the world of cause and effect, in deep contemplation, is expressly declared by the scriptures to be the Supreme Brahman. He is the substance, all else the shadow. He is the imperishable. The knowers of Brahman know him as the one reality behind all that seems. For this reason they are devoted to him. Absorbed in him, they attain freedom from the wheel of birth, death, and rebirth.

The Lord supports this universe, which is made up of the perishable and the imperishable, the manifest and the unmanifest. The individual soul, forgetful of the Lord, attaches itself to pleasure and thus is bound. When it comes to the Lord, it is freed from all its fetters.

Mind and matter, master and servant–both have existed from beginningless time. The Maya which unites them has also existed from beginningless time. When all three–mind, matter, and Maya–are known as one with Brahman, then is it realized that the Self is infinite and has no part in action. Then is it revealed that the Self is all.

Matter is perishable. The Lord, the destroyer of ignorance, is imperishable, immortal. He is the one God, the Lord of the perishable and of all souls. By meditating on him, by uniting oneself with him, by identifying oneself with him, one ceases to be ignorant.

Know God, and all fetters will be loosed. Ignorance will vanish. Birth, death, and rebirth will be no more. Meditate upon him and transcend physical consciousness. Thus will you reach union with the lord of the universe. Thus will you become identified with him who is One without a second. In him all your desires will find fulfillment.

The truth is that you are always united with the Lord. But you must know this. Nothing further is there to know. Meditate, and you will realize that mind, matter, and Maya (the power which unites mind and matter) are but three aspects of Brahman, the one reality.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[LayingHands]

Ok, you mentioned a lot here, most of it irrelevant. But let’s take a look at what you wrote.

I don’t see what point you’re trying to make by mentioning the first Epistle of Clement, but you are pretty close, it was written in 96 AD, around the same time St John was said to have passed to the next life.

Keep in mind that Jesus died around 33 AD, and thus Clement’s Epistle was written some 70 years after His death and resurrection. That is still within living memory of Jesus Christ.

How soon was the Bhagvataghita written down in relation to the events it supposedly records. Do you know?

Irenaneus didn’t “canonize” the gospels, he merely put to writing what was already known by his time. That the four gospels (among other writings) were recognized as canonical.

Again, note the antiquity of the Gospels and how early they are written in relation to Jesus. Do Hindus have anything even remotely comparable to the textual veracity of the Gospels?

Point?

Believed by who? St John is said to have died near the close of the first century.

Point?

There is no Creed that makes Jesus out to be a “created son.”

How could Tertullian “create” a doctrine to combat Arius, when he died before Arius as even born? Friend, you really need to do more research.

We have no need to go so far as Tertullian anyway, simply read the inspired prologue of St John’s gospel, and there you will find clear proof for the Son’s divinity, and substantial unity with the Father.

Oh and btw… what do you know of the Hindu “trinity”? Are you aware of it’s development?

Oh, indeed…

Yes, actually, you should read the Bhagavad-gita AS IT IS, which is 5,000 years old, thousands of years ancient and has now been translated to english from sanskrit…this is the Sacred Science of GOD, was written then, as RELAYED by GOD…when He descended to the earth, to again begin, the disciplic succession of His Religion Science for ALL Humanity…which had been lost…

As relates to Tertullian, he became the founder of Western theology and the Father of Latin Christianity. Tertullian is also the originator who advanced this oldest of the then created creeds (correct belief), At first, the Old Roman Creed, included veribage as prayer to One Almighty GOD and his only begotten SON, Jesus Christ…then as time passed Tertullian’s Triparite structure, his Trinitarian theology, THE Trinity…eventually became adopted during the Nicene Creed 325 AD, by 318 Fathers. The Trinity explicitly affirmed the Divinity of Jesus Christ, and formally applied to Him the term GOD…thus making Jesus Christ 3 Persons, One Substance, GOD, SON and HOLY SPIRIT…

Before the Nicene Creed was adopted by the Roman Church in 325 AD, the church had followed Bishop Arius (Arian Doctrine) and as Bishop Arius had declared Jesus Christ as Divine, but, created by GOD, Arius teaching was provoking a serious crisis. Bishop Arius teaching and declarations were thereby, making Jesus Christ LESS, then his Father, GOD…and also contradicted the other doctrine of Tertullian’s Trinity.

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus always spoke of His Father GOD, always deferred to his Father, GOD…prayed all glory, all worship, all respect for his Father, GOD…tell me, what did Jesus Christ preach was the greatest sin of all?

Never did Jesus Christ acknowledge, create, identify, specify any changes for this Christian Trinity theology nor was this information, ever, a part of any of the Holy Apostles teaching and preaching, when they spread the Word of GOD, as relayed to them by Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ’s preaching was always for the glory, obedience, worship, devotion…of GOD The Father, Causes of ALL Causes, and His message of Salvation for Humanity…pure and simple.

Why was this allowed to not only CHANGE, regarding the positions and understanding of GOD the Father and his Divine Son…but is today, also the reason for the complete SEPARATION of the Western and Eastern Churches? Not for a while, not for several years, but for thousands of years now…

 

[kryssy28]

We all have to choose what to believe and what not too. After reading both your comments, i see that you all won’t agree on anything because of your religious beliefs and backgrounds. Many persons have become believers through the grace of Christ Jesus, to whom the Father chooses to reveal. I pray that this revelation manifest itself to you and that when that time comes, i pray you accept what is revealed.

 

[patrick457]

Clearly expressed in the Ramayana, Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita. It is thematic through all three works.

Let me just butt in: since it is said that Hari ananta, Hari katha ananta, which of the countless Rama-katha are you referring to? Valmiki’s, or Tulsidas’, or perhaps even Kamban’s? (I have a great professional interest really in Indian religions so I couldn’t resist asking.)

 

[patrick457]

Oh, indeed…

Yes, actually, you should read the Bhagavad-gita AS IT IS, which is 5,000 years old, thousands of years ancient and has now been translated to english from sanskrit…this is the Sacred Science of GOD, was written then, as RELAYED by GOD…when He descended to the earth, to again begin, the disciplic succession of His Religion Science for ALL Humanity…which had been lost…

As relates to Tertullian, he became the founder of Western theology and the Father of Latin Christianity. Tertullian is also the originator who advanced this oldest of the then created creeds (correct belief), At first, the Old Roman Creed, included veribage as prayer to One Almighty GOD and his only begotten SON, Jesus Christ…then as time passed Tertullian’s Triparite structure, his Trinitarian theology, THE Trinity…eventually became adopted during the Nicene Creed 325 AD, by 318 Fathers. The Trinity explicitly affirmed the Divinity of Jesus Christ, and formally applied to Him the term GOD…thus making Jesus Christ 3 Persons, One Substance, GOD, SON and HOLY SPIRIT…

Before the Nicene Creed was adopted by the Roman Church in 325 AD, the church had followed Bishop Arius (Arian Doctrine) and as Bishop Arius had declared Jesus Christ as Divine, but, created by GOD, Arius teaching was provoking a serious crisis. Bishop Arius teaching and declarations were thereby, making Jesus Christ LESS, then his Father, GOD…and also contradicted the other doctrine of Tertullian’s Trinity.

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus always spoke of His Father GOD, always deferred to his Father, GOD…prayed all glory, all worship, all respect for his Father, GOD…tell me, what did Jesus Christ preach was the greatest sin of all?

Never did Jesus Christ acknowledge, create, identify, specify any changes for this Christian Trinity theology nor was this information, ever, a part of any of the Holy Apostles teaching and preaching, when they spread the Word of GOD, as relayed to them by Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ’s preaching was always for the glory, obedience, worship, devotion…of GOD The Father, Causes of ALL Causes, and His message of Salvation for Humanity…pure and simple.

Why was this allowed to not only CHANGE, regarding the positions and understanding of GOD the Father and his Divine Son…but is today, also the reason for the complete SEPARATION of the Western and Eastern Churches? Not for a while, not for several years, but for thousands of years now…

Just my two cents. I’m sure there would be those who’d disagree with me, but while the events of the Kurukshetra War is indeed traditionally considered to have occured thousands of years ago (Dvapara Yuga), I side with some critical scholars who consider the Mahabharata to have reached its present final form at around the Kushan to the Gupta period (3rd-4th century AD), after centuries of redaction. You must remember that the epics of olden times were first passed on by word of mouth before being committed into writing, and Dio Chrysostom’s reference to ‘Homer’s epics’ being sung in India around the 1st century AD seems to imply the existence of what we would later know of as the Mahabharata (which Dio Chrysostom could have syncretistically identified with the stories of Homer) at that date.

 

[patrick457]

I’ll admit that I don’t have much to contribute in matters of philosophy and doctrine, but I really find the subject of Brahmanic religions in general from an historical POV an interesting subject. I’ll admit that philosophy ain’t really my forte: I’d rather hear and talk about minor things such as Sanskrit, the Vedas, the epics, how in Valmiki it was Matali, Indra’s charioteer, who tells Rama to target Ravana’s chest using the ‘ultimate weapon’ Brahmastra while in Tulsidas it is Ravana’s brother Vibhishana who tells him of the drop of amrita stored in Ravana’s navel (the secret to his invulnerability), upon which Rama targets him using an Agneyastra, which multiplies into thirty-one shafts - one for each of his ten heads and twenty arms and his navel, how in the Hindu puranas Krishna kills King Kamsa by dragging the latter by the hair and throwing him out while in the Buddhist version Kanha (Pali form of Krishna) beheads Kamsa with his discus a la Shisupala’s death, Hindu iconography, differences between Vaishnavite sects over the form of the tilak, that type of stuff. But that’s for another thread.

 

[Publisher]

I would say that the Hindu concept of Avatar cooresponds more toward the ideas in the Jewsish Scriptures that have “thophanies”…God in human form interacting with humanity for one purpose or another…The Lord’s visit to Abraham…Lot…Jacob wrestled with Him…theophanies were fairly present in the early portions of the OT…by the time we get to the prophets that declared there was ONLY ONE GOD…not one God over all other gods…after the Return from Exile…Judah…“Jews” finally became truly monotheistic and theophanies fade from the scene…they do pop up…Daniel and the 4th Man in the Furnace…

I try not to read my beliefs into others ideas of God and the Universe…I instead try to understand how my own religious heritage reflected “visitations of God” to humanity…and the theophanies of the OT…with the culmination of God actually BECOMING MAN instead of APPEARING AS MAN…in the man Jesus of Nazareth,

Hindu thought and world view is different than Judeo/Christian world view…there are interesting similarities in thought…but divergent in the outcome…Christians believe “no matter how you cut it”…Jesus of Nazareth as God Incarnate was the Single Unique Event in the revelation of God.

Hindu belief developed over generations…different religious beliefs…eventually manifesting of the various Hindu sects…so to our in the West religous heritage come from a religious view of Abraham being called to separate himself and worship the God of his fathers…early Hebrews were henotheist…one main God among many…to true monotheist…only One God exists and is Lord over all arrived on the scene after the Exile…and “progressed” in the “final and complete disclosure of God” in Jesus of Nazareth…there in no “counterpart” in Hinduism that takes on the role of Jesus in His relation to the Fullness in a unique way as he does in Christianity…

 

[Sufjon]

I would say that the Hindu concept of Avatar cooresponds more toward the ideas in the Jewsish Scriptures that have “thophanies”…God in human form interacting with humanity for one purpose or another…The Lord’s visit to Abraham…Lot…Jacob wrestled with Him…theophanies were fairly present in the early portions of the OT…by the time we get to the prophets that declared there was ONLY ONE GOD…not one God over all other gods…after the Return from Exile…Judah…“Jews” finally became truly monotheistic and theophanies fade from the scene…they do pop up…Daniel and the 4th Man in the Furnace…

I try not to read my beliefs into others ideas of God and the Universe…I instead try to understand how my own religious heritage reflected “visitations of God” to humanity…and the theophanies of the OT…with the culmination of God actually BECOMING MAN instead of APPEARING AS MAN…in the man Jesus of Nazareth,

Hindu thought and world view is different than Judeo/Christian world view…there are interesting similarities in thought…but divergent in the outcome…Christians believe “no matter how you cut it”…Jesus of Nazareth as God Incarnate was the Single Unique Event in the revelation of God.

Hindu belief developed over generations…different religious beliefs…eventually manifesting of the various Hindu sects…so to our in the West religous heritage come from a religious view of Abraham being called to separate himself and worship the God of his fathers…early Hebrews were henotheist…one main God among many…to true monotheist…only One God exists and is Lord over all arrived on the scene after the Exile…and “progressed” in the “final and complete disclosure of God” in Jesus of Nazareth…there in no “counterpart” in Hinduism that takes on the role of Jesus in His relation to the Fullness in a unique way as he does in Christianity…

Hi Publisher: The overall point is that there is one God. The Hindu experience of God incarnate is no different in our view that the Christian God incarnate. We would not see it as an analog of Jacob wrestling with an angel. We have the audacity to claim our own legitimacy while allowing for the reality of your encounter with God. Human experience is broad and full of diverse context in both cultural and religious expression. I have to intuit that this is the way God intended, as diversity is evident throughout creation. It seems logical then, that while there can be only one God, our various histories and encounters with Him should be representative of the whole of His creation. To say that God is only the God of Abraham is a very limited and tribal view that is only allowable in the context of a primitive tribal setting. As 21st century permutations of God’s creative genius, it is incumbent on us to live up to our intellectual and spiritual capabilities as we evolve, and to apply these to their fullest. This includes taking into account and understanding the regional, self centric views held by ancient cultures. It is hard for a modern human such as myself to imagine God landing somewhere in India 2 or 3 thousand years ago and telling everyone “I am the God of Israel, the God of Abraham. You are not from the tribe of Israel, nor are you sons of Abraham, therefore you will have wait a few centuries for some Christians to come along and give your lives some meaning. Your lives and your culture as well as your encounters with Me until that time are only to serve as a backdrop to the effulgence of my chosen people, who will one day show up at your doorstep to trade their Bibles for your land and resources.” In truth Publisher, a modern human has to see this as primitive. It is understandable that primitive cultures were more isolated and ego-centric in their thinking and spirituality. It follows that they each had their own encounters with God. In accordance with natural order and perhaps God’s plan, we have evolved into a highly connected and intermixed world community that should hold itself to a higher and more inclusive view. Sectarian views as to one experience of God being somehow more legitimate than the next doesn’t follow logic, because our collective community is a cauldron of diverse background and experience. Modern spirituality is a confluence of many diverse origins. The escalating stress between the Abrahamic sects of Islam and Christianity is of grave concern, and serves as an example as well as a warning in regard to trying to apply a primitive and tribal understanding to our existence. Such understandings were formed in an age where people more closely resembled Neanderthals in their understanding of the world around them than they resemble humanity today. Taking such views into a world with the incredible technologies we find ourselves with at this juncture in our evolution, is like giving a loaded pistol to a gorilla.

 

[desales09]

Quick question for Sufjon, or anyone who knows: Would a Hindu ever claim there is an unchanging moral law applicable to all, or is moral behavior pretty flexible? I’m reading about the “Ten Commitments” in a book on Hinduism - would these “Ten Commitments” be viewed as immutable and binding upon all Hindus (and all humanity), or are they more like suggestions?

 

[Sufjon]

Quick question for Sufjon, or anyone who knows: Would a Hindu ever claim there is an unchanging moral law applicable to all, or is moral behavior pretty flexible? I’m reading about the “Ten Commitments” in a book on Hinduism - would these “Ten Commitments” be viewed as immutable and binding upon all Hindus (and all humanity), or are they more like suggestions?

Hi again Desales: what we have are called yamas and niyamas.

The Yamas

Behaviors that govern negative tendencies in all human beings.

Ahimsa (non-violence)
Satya (truth)
Asteya (non-stealing, or non-cheating)
Brahmacharya (continence, involving self-restraint and moderation in all you do. For more advanced souls, this will include celibacy )
Aparigraha (non-coveting, including no envy, jealousy or unhealthy competitiveness).

The Niyamas

General actions that are necessary if we want to achieve a condition of health and balance within ourselves.

Purity (Sauca)
Contentment (Santosha)
Ardour (Ishawar-Pranidhana)
Discipline (Tapas)
And study of the Self (Svadhyaya)

All of this ties into karma or basically just cause and effect. Initially, a soul strives to achieve good karma and avoid bad karma, but eventually a soul can advance to a point where it is beyond both good and bad karma and escapes the cycle of birth and death. In our view, you don’t get punished forever for doing the wrong things. You have to work it out. Sin for us is more a matter of being out of alignment. You purposely run through a small pothole and you have some adjustments to make. You drive through bigger ones and you have issues. You start driving over curbs and you have some big decisions to start considering as to how you’re going to proceed, as you’re not going to be able to proceed much further in that manner.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[LayingHands]

We all have to choose what to believe and what not too. After reading both your comments, i see that you all won’t agree on anything because of your religious beliefs and backgrounds. Many persons have become believers through the grace of Christ Jesus, to whom the Father chooses to reveal. I pray that this revelation manifest itself to you and that when that time comes, i pray you accept what is revealed.

Thank you, Kryssy…as you can see by what I wrote, I have found my salvation in GOD’s Plan. GOD, The Father, of Jesus Christ, the Son…whom Jesus Christ worshipped and glorified through His preaching/teaching, all the days of his life, on Earth, was an example for us to follow, regarding His Father, GOD…I am ready and I am doing what GOD relays in the Bhagavad-gita AS IT IS, as humanity’s duty to GOD, because this is GOD’s word of the Science of GOD (His), for His SALVATION of ALL Humanity…

I also want to note that there are paralles in this Book of the Science of GOD or the Book of Self-Realization…GOD’s instructions for Salvation, GOD’s prescribed methods of worship TO hIM, to awaken humanity and ASSIST HUMANITY, to save itself from re-birth (reincarnation/transmigration) from another material re-existence…thereby, returning, (spiritually), IN SPIRIT FORM, to GOD, GODHEAD.

In this same manner, Jesus Christ preached of His Father…using some of the same words, such as, GOD, GODHEAD, HELL, SALVATION, PROMISE, SPIRIT SOUL, CREATED UNIVERSE, MANISFISTATION, HEAVEN…these words were used as written, 5,000 years ago…

GOD says: "ALWAYS THINK OF ME, BECOME MY DEVOTEE, WORSHIP ME, AND OFFER YOUR HOMAGE UNTO ME. THE RESULT IS THAT YOU WILL COME TO ME, WITHOUT FAIL. I PROMISE YOU THIS BECAUSE YOU ARE MY VERY DEAR FRIEND. ENGAGE YOUR MIND ALWAYS IN THINKING OF ME, ENGAGE YOUR BODY IN MY SERVICE; SURRENDER UNTO ME, COMPLETELY ABSORBED IN ME, SURELY WILL YOU COME TO ME’…Jesus Christ brought this message too, about His Father GOD…bless you too.

 

[LayingHands]

Quick question for Sufjon, or anyone who knows: Would a Hindu ever claim there is an unchanging moral law applicable to all, or is moral behavior pretty flexible? I’m reading about the “Ten Commitments” in a book on Hinduism - would these “Ten Commitments” be viewed as immutable and binding upon all Hindus (and all humanity), or are they more like suggestions?

As there are several, numerous branches of all religions and everyone has been influenced to think this way or that way…all pray they are on the same road…back to GODHEAD, period. Many were destroyed, many went underground to save themselves, others hid materials which were declared heresy and in this manner, for thousands of years, humanity has stumbled along…crippled, herded, threatened, rewarded, genicide of peoples and cultures, all in the name of, Religion.

I am only relaying the Book of the Science of GOD, known as the Bhagavad-gita As it IS…because in it, GOD has relayed, by His words, that this ONE Book of His Knowledge regarding His SALVATION FOR HUMANITY is the only ONE, Humanity must know.

GOD relays…Who you are, Why He Created you and HOW all the Cosmic Universe was created and how this Cosmic Universe, will END.

I have not nor will I, bring any other vedic literature into any conversation because GOD said, no other knowledge was necessary, beyond this Knowledge, by His own Voice.

The paralles to the same messages from Jesus Christ continue…wasn’t this the same messages, that Jesus Christ preached for the Salvation of Humanity?

 

[desales09]

Thank you, Sufjon - so sin, in Hinduism, is viewed as solely an offense against oneself, not against a Higher Being?

Well, I guess in Hindu thought, we are considered the “Higher Being,” correct? That there’s really no distinction between creature and Creator? So sinning in any way is a sin against the Whole - all humanity and God (of Whom humanity is part) - but these sins are punished by natural consequences and have no eternal repercussions that cannot be undone. Am I understanding this rightly?

And the law of Karma - would this be considered the same as “one reaps as he sows” - that if one does bad to another, bad in a similar fashion will return to him?

Another question, about the notion of being beyond “good and bad Karma” - could you explain this a little more? Is that considered achievable in this life, or is it a state beyond this life, where one is no longer born or dies?

Please correct any misunderstandings I have conveyed, if you have the time - I would really appreciate it.

Your friend, Lee

 

[Sufjon]

so sin, in Hinduism, is viewed as solely an offense against oneself, not against a Higher Being?

Hi Lee: It’s not really considered an offense but an error. It can be a costly error of course. It has an effect on the whole. One of the reasons we offer prayer is to continually infuse the positive into the mix. For everyone doing something wrong, there is an offsetting amount of good to meet it somewhere. Your prayer or mine, whether Christian, Jewish or whatever is beneficial to all of us, whether directed at all of us or at one particular person of purpose. That’s how we would see it at least.

Well, I guess in Hindu thought, we are considered the “Higher Being,” correct? That there’s really no distinction between creature and Creator? So sinning in any way is a sin against the Whole - all humanity and God (of Whom humanity is part) - but these sins are punished by natural consequences and have no eternal repercussions that cannot be undone. Am I understanding this rightly?

Yeah, that’s pretty close Lee.

And the law of Karma - would this be considered the same as “one reaps as he sows” - that if one does bad to another, bad in a similar fashion will return to him?

Absolutely, but I have to add that you may not see the consequences for a very long time, or it might be immediate. You may not reap the good or bad reaction from a given action perhaps even in this lifetime. Some days I wonder “was I Jack the Ripper or Heinrich Himmler or something?” Anyway, it really depends on how your individual story is unfolding and how it fits in the larger whole

Another question, about the notion of being beyond “good and bad Karma” - could you explain this a little more? Is that considered achievable in this life, or is it a state beyond this life, where one is no longer born or dies?

It sure can, or at least this is our faith. Again, I know that it irritates people to have someone from another religion tell t hem how things are, so I use the disclaimer that this is what we believe. Yes, heaven is a state of being and since there is no end to life, it can happen in the here and now. Whether I am in a mortal incarnation or between incarnations, I am still the same jivatman. Lives on earth and the existences between them are just phases in one’s existence. We think that is a person reaches this plane of being beyond good and bad, we have reached a realization of oneness with God, and therefore can either go into Mahasamadhi, or chose to press on or return for the benefit of other beings.

Happy Thanksgiving
Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[desales09]

Thank you, Sufjon - You mind if I run my project by you next week and see what you think? It will be in slideshow form. You can tell me if you think it is a fair treatment of Vedic morality.

Lee

 

[desales09]

As there are several, numerous branches of all religions and everyone has been influenced to think this way or that way…all pray they are on the same road…back to GODHEAD, period. Many were destroyed, many went underground to save themselves, others hid materials which were declared heresy and in this manner, for thousands of years, humanity has stumbled along…crippled, herded, threatened, rewarded, genicide of peoples and cultures, all in the name of, Religion.

I am only relaying the Book of the Science of GOD, known as the Bhagavad-gita As it IS…because in it, GOD has relayed, by His words, that this ONE Book of His Knowledge regarding His SALVATION FOR HUMANITY is the only ONE, Humanity must know.

GOD relays…Who you are, Why He Created you and HOW all the Cosmic Universe was created and how this Cosmic Universe, will END.

I have not nor will I, bring any other vedic literature into any conversation because GOD said, no other knowledge was necessary, beyond this Knowledge, by His own Voice.

The paralles to the same messages from Jesus Christ continue…wasn’t this the same messages, that Jesus Christ preached for the Salvation of Humanity?

Hello, Layinghands - As I read your message, you seem to be making these points:

1. That people of all religions have been influenced to “think this or that way” - this is true, and I think it is unavoidable for anybody born into this world to be influenced by others in their thinking.
2. All are seeking to return to “the Godhead.” I think this is true in a sense, for as a Catholic Christian I believe that all of us are inbuilt with a desire for God that only He can fulfill. “Our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee.” The difference is in approach.
3. That people in the name of religion have done horrible things. This is true.
4. That the Baghavid Gita is God’s sole revelation to the world. I believe otherwise.
5. That Jesus Christ preached the same message that you are relaying in your post. I don’t follow this…

If in your third point you were saying that Jesus Christ preached the same message as is found in the Bhagavad-Gita, well, I don’t think that could be true. I believe there may be parallels between some of the teachings in the Bhagavad-Gita and the teachings of Christ, but I really don’t see this book teaching that Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life” and that He is the sole way to God, as is central to Christ’s teachings. Christianity is more about a commitment to a Person than to a system of teachings, though this is included. I haven’t read the Bhagavad-Gita - but I think I know enough to make these statements with certainty.

If I have misunderstood what you were trying to say, please feel free to set me straight.

Happy Thanksgiving to you, to Sufjon, and to all reading this message

Your friend, Lee

 

[Sufjon]

Thank you, Sufjon - You mind if I run my project by you next week and see what you think? It will be in slideshow form. You can tell me if you think it is a fair treatment of Vedic morality.

Lee

Sure Lee.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[LayingHands]

Hello, Layinghands - As I read your message, you seem to be making these points:

1. That people of all religions have been influenced to “think this or that way” - this is true, and I think it is unavoidable for anybody born into this world to be influenced by others in their thinking.
2. All are seeking to return to “the Godhead.” I think this is true in a sense, for as a Catholic Christian I believe that all of us are inbuilt with a desire for God that only He can fulfill. “Our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee.” The difference is in approach.
3. That people in the name of religion have done horrible things. This is true.
4. That the Baghavid Gita is God’s sole revelation to the world. I believe otherwise.
5. That Jesus Christ preached the same message that you are relaying in your post. I don’t follow this…

If in your third point you were saying that Jesus Christ preached the same message as is found in the Bhagavad-Gita, well, I don’t think that could be true. I believe there may be parallels between some of the teachings in the Bhagavad-Gita and the teachings of Christ, but I really don’t see this book teaching that Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life” and that He is the sole way to God, as is central to Christ’s teachings. Christianity is more about a commitment to a Person than to a system of teachings, though this is included. I haven’t read the Bhagavad-Gita - but I think I know enough to make these statements with certainty.

If I have misunderstood what you were trying to say, please feel free to set me straight.

Happy Thanksgiving to you, to Sufjon, and to all reading this message

Your friend, Lee

Hello Lee,

I posted a reply late last night, and I see today my posting is not here…it appears to be lost…

 

[desales09]

Layinghands - Sorry to hear that…Don’t you hate when you put your best forth in a post, only to have it disappear into the Great Oblivion of the internet?

Sufjon - I think you’re already gone over this, but could you please give me in a nutshell the Hindu understanding of why it is desirable to live a moral life, what the purpose of ethics are? Also, I know there are differences between castes - for instance, that it is acceptable for the “warrior” caste to kill and eat animals, but for others the moral principle of Ahimsa forbids that…could you talk about these differences just briefly?