K
Kelt
Guest
I know there was a lot of corruption in the Vatican bank…mafia included I think…
- Status
K
Kelt
Guest
Ah yes - in a nutshell!!
K
Kelt
Guest
Haha! Fair enough! We do give quite a lot of money away, I work for Oxfam (unpaid) and I drive a Fiat Panda that needs pedals on the steep hills haha! But still, I’m aware that I’m relatively rich and should probably give more away. But I’m not trying to set myself up as ‘holier than thou’. I still just say I don’t give my money to a church for them to decide where it goes for me. I prefer to do my own research. And SHOULDN’T churches be more ‘humble’- as they are Christianity’s showpiece? I personally, after all, am not trying to extoll the virtues of Christianity but the churches are. (We have tiny churches up in the Welsh hills - very plain, very simple, very old. They used to have paintings on the walls, but otherwise there was not much money about. )
Oh and as for speed of computers…our broadband is about 500kbs…forget films!!
K
Kelt
Guest
I think you have a point about the upkeep of ‘national treasures’. The trouble is, the message of Jesus does not come through the rich splendour of the church which is trying to represent him. D’you understand what I mean? When I visited the Vatican, I saw wealth, dogma, tradition and ceremony, which men have developed in the name of Christianity and I just can 't see Jesus the man walking through it and approving. This seems to make some folk cross, but it struck me very forcibly.
There has been corruption in the Vatican bank which has been very difficult to get to the bottom of, but Francis seems to be on the case. I like him because he has turned away from the luxuries which were on offer and lives simply.
I believe your last point about theology and an understanding of history is a very valid one.
C
Charlemagne_III
Guest
“For where God built a church, there the Devil would also build a chapel.” - Martin
Luther
The real contest is to make sure the Church stays a lot bigger than the chapel.
K
Kelt
Guest
And Martin Luther was railing against the excesses of the Catholic Church in his time!“For where God built a church, there the Devil would also build a chapel.” - Martin
Luther
The real contest is to make sure the Church stays a lot bigger than the chapel.
C
Charlemagne_III
Guest
O.K. Enough gloating over the devils in the Catholic Church.
Unless you are prepared to acknowledge all the saints of the Catholic Church!
Judas was the chapel the devil built among the holy apostles.
Kelt, what is your religion, if you have one? It would help to know.
A
Abu
Guest
The difference, to which Kelt is blind, between the Catholic Church and any other institution is that the Catholic Church is founded by Christ Himself and thus, despite the perversity of some of its members, She has contributed what no other organization could – in faith, hope and charity.
Father John McCloskey, reviewing *How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization *by Thomas E. Woods Jr. - published by Regnery Publishing, 2005, writes:
“Woods notes, ‘Western civilization stands indebted to the Church for the university system, charitable work, international law, the sciences, and, important legal principles. … Western civilization owes far more to the Catholic Church than most people — Catholic included — often realize. … The Church, in fact, built Western civilization.’ ”
That is precisely why Christ Himself emphasises: “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one as Thou, Father, in Me and I in Thee…. That the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me (Jn 17:20-21).
Blithely ignored also, for idle chatter, is the stark warning of Jesus Himself: “For false christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” (Mk 13:22). Just as Christ founding His Church on St Peter, and giving him His authority is ignored.
The rejection by Martin Luther of the treasures of Catholicism for his own mess of pottage is evidence enough of the wisdom of Christ in establishing St Peter and His Magisterium to teach, sanctify and rule.
Father John McCloskey, reviewing *How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization *by Thomas E. Woods Jr. - published by Regnery Publishing, 2005, writes:
“Woods notes, ‘Western civilization stands indebted to the Church for the university system, charitable work, international law, the sciences, and, important legal principles. … Western civilization owes far more to the Catholic Church than most people — Catholic included — often realize. … The Church, in fact, built Western civilization.’ ”
That is precisely why Christ Himself emphasises: “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one as Thou, Father, in Me and I in Thee…. That the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me (Jn 17:20-21).
Blithely ignored also, for idle chatter, is the stark warning of Jesus Himself: “For false christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” (Mk 13:22). Just as Christ founding His Church on St Peter, and giving him His authority is ignored.
The rejection by Martin Luther of the treasures of Catholicism for his own mess of pottage is evidence enough of the wisdom of Christ in establishing St Peter and His Magisterium to teach, sanctify and rule.
K
Kelt
Guest
That’s because you’d be able to label me/ put me in a box and all sorts of preconceived ideas and prejudices come into play, consciously or unconsciously.O.K. Enough gloating over the devils in the Catholic Church.
Unless you are prepared to acknowledge all the saints of the Catholic Church!
Judas was the chapel the devil built among the holy apostles.
Kelt, what is your religion, if you have one? It would help to know.
Sorry, I’m not trying to gloat, I keep qualifying what I say, when I have a criticism I try to say the Catholic Church is not alone - when it isn’t. But that point about Martin Luther was an apt one I think.
K
Kelt
Guest
, art 39].
I’m not expecting you to agree with me here as your beliefs are deep and complex so this is just an explanation of why I say there is no more ‘proof’ of one religion over another which in turn explains why there are so many different beliefs, and non belief, in the world. The New Testament writers were Jewish ( maybe not Luke?) and in Hebrew Scriptures the term ‘son of God’ had always referred to a human being who has a special relationship with God. Luke calls Jesus a prophet. ( and so does the Quran ) Jews would not have countenanced a man being called a god.
The gospel of John is different. Written later than the others, the writer of this is writing from a different angle - Christology has developed and Jesus is talked of as divine.
On the other hand, of course, some people looking for evidence or proof, will simply say ‘just because someone claims to be God doesn’t mean it’s true’. That’s not my argument, but it’s out there.
C
Charlemagne_III
Guest
Well no, I think you’d be labeling yourself.
But if you prefer to hide behind anonymity, that’s your business.
A
Abu
Guest
Most “Jews” didn’t, but Luke records far more – so the reality is as St Luke relates in two of many examples:
- Lk 8:41-56 re the dying daughter of Jairus: “Fear not; just believe and she will be well.”
- Lk 5:17-26 re the paralytic: “Son, your sins are forgiven”, to which some of the scribes thought “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” To which Jesus replied: “But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins, He said to the paralytic: “Get up and take your bed and go to your house.”
As we have seen the divinity of Jesus is striking and this is in all the Gospels – especially the foundation of His Catholic Church in Matthew:
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.” (Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)
K
Kelt
Guest
I don’t see how these are PROOFS that Jesus claimed to be God. As I said ‘son of man’ ‘son of god’ were used in Hebrew Scriptures to show a very special relationship with God.
Very soon after the terrible shock of Jesus’s death to his followers, they had to somehow make sense of it all. It wasn’t what they expected, whatever warnings they’d had.
Obviously I didn’t put that point of view to you expecting anyone to AGREE with it - you obviously all BELIEVE differently. That is what it is about - you have considered it and you have FAITH. Just the same as I hear most sincerely from the Muslims I have listened to. They have beliefs that you and I would consider wrong and sometimes absurd. PROOFS really don’t come into it - it’s about FAITH.
C
Charlemagne_III
Guest
John 8:57
“So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, ‘Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.’ So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area.”
I AM was the Old Testament way by which God named himself.
K
Kelt
Guest
And this was written by the writer of John’s gospel…he’d already developed Christology…after the death of Jesus. Whilst this story could have been founded on an oral memory of an event in the temple, it could also have been designed to put the Jews in a bad light; ie Jesus tells them he is God (as the writer of John has concluded) and the Jews reject him AGAIN.John 8:57
“So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, ‘Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.’ So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area.”
I AM was the Old Testament way by which God named himself.
John’s gospel has been seen as one cause for the persecution of Jews by Christians throughout history.
C
Charlemagne_III
Guest
You don’t seem to believe in the truthfulness of John’s gospel.
Then you probably don’t believe in the truthfulness of any of the gospels.
Why do you want to dialogue about what Jesus said if you start from the premise that the gospels are not truthful?
They are the only sources we have.
Anyway, you were provided a quote you said didn’t exist … that Jesus proclaimed his own divinity.
A
Abu
Guest
Pure fantasy. The “could have” ignores the reality of the Gospel eye-witness accounts. Of the particular Jews who were misled into calling for the crucifixion of Jesus, a substantial number of Jews repented and were baptised at St Peter’s great presentation of the reality of His death, Resurrection and subsequent presence with them.
Myopia.
The Catholic Church has never taught nor sanctioned the persecution of anyone, much less Jews, and St John certainly did not.
K
Kelt
Guest
I was originally explaining the absence of PROOF to those questioning why there is so much division within Christianity, let alone disbelief, or belief in other religions. Someone will produce parts of the Quran and be mystified as to why you don’t believe them.You don’t seem to believe in the truthfulness of John’s gospel.
Then you probably don’t believe in the truthfulness of any of the gospels.
Why do you want to dialogue about what Jesus said if you start from the premise that the gospels are not truthful?
They are the only sources we have.
Anyway, you were provided a quote you said didn’t exist … that Jesus proclaimed his own divinity.
Whoever wrote John had a developed Christology, already different from early followers of Jesus, a lot of whom didn’t believe him to be divine. ( I think they were the Ebonites?) His story is coloured by his subsequent beliefs.
The synoptic gospels are more a record of memories of the teachings of Jesus…The writer of John goes a step further and develops his ideas and beliefs. They were not the only gospels we have…many were rejected for the accepted canon by groups of theologians long after Jesus’s death.
I’m afraid that the church WAS responsible for a lot of anti semitism, directly and indirectly, as well as anti Muslim. It’s just a fact of history not my personal feeling. The church has moved on though…whether that is down to divine inspiration or just the continuing civilisation of society is a matter of Belief.
A
Abu
Guest
False – as usual, with no facts to support.
- Status