Christianity is Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy

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I came across a new (well, new to me) critique of Christianity this weekend and wondered if anyone has heard it before and thoughts about it.

The basic premise is that Christianity is Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy (MSbP).
In Münchausen syndrome by proxy, an adult caregiver either makes a child appear sick by fabricating symptoms, or actually causes harm to the child, in order to gain the attention of medical providers and others.
The claim is that there is nothing wrong with us but we are told that there is and God has the only cure and the cure is Himself. By keeping us thinking we are spiritually ill we focus our attention on Him. That is why the only thing that could “cure” the Fall was the incarnation. We could never fix or appease the damage. Even with the “cure” we are still born with original sin. If the cure had been absolute everyone born after the Death and Resurrection would have been born without it. But we are all still “born sick” so we need God and the Church perpetually because we will be always spiritually sick.

Why? He likes the attention. The first commandment was used as an example.
Exodus 20 2-17
You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments.
Also, The Church was also described as a business and keeping contributing members was the business model. The Church are the “keepers of the cure” so people who thought they were sick wouldn’t leave the cure.

The reason in their opinion that Churches are empty is people don’t feel that sense of “sickness” so they don’t seek a cure.
 
I came across a new (well, new to me) critique of Christianity this weekend and wondered if anyone has heard it before and thoughts about it.

The basic premise is that Christianity is Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy (MSbP).

The claim is that there is nothing wrong with us but we are told that there is and God has the only cure and the cure is Himself. By keeping us thinking we are spiritually ill we focus our attention on Him. That is why the only thing that could “cure” the Fall was the incarnation. We could never fix or appease the damage. Even with the “cure” we are still born with original sin. If the cure had been absolute everyone born after the Death and Resurrection would have been born without it. But we are all still “born sick” so we need God and the Church perpetually because we will be always spiritually sick.

Why? He likes the attention. The first commandment was used as an example.

Also, The Church was also described as a business and keeping contributing members was the business model. The Church are the “keepers of the cure” so people who thought they were sick wouldn’t leave the cure.

The reason in their opinion that Churches are empty is people don’t feel that sense of “sickness” so they don’t seek a cure.
We’re born “sick”? we’re “ill”? what kind of vague and sloppy rhetoric is that? Since they are not coming to grips (you don’t provide links, so I have to rely on your paraphrasing) with what Christians understand by sin, redemption, they’re not worth replying to.

The fact that these gnu atheists say that “god likes the attention” speaks volumes of their intellectual honesty.
 
What about those who find God with a sense of love and not fear?
 
It takes an extreme blindness and lack of self knowledge to claim that “there is nothing wrong with us”! All you have to do is read or watch the news and see the evil man does to his fellow man, but then there is the lack of self realization, of doing even what we want to do let alone what we should be doing.

May God reveal to such blind people their many faults and imperfections and sins and even grant them repentance and faith.
 
We’re born “sick”? we’re “ill”? what kind of vague and sloppy rhetoric is that? Since they are not coming to grips (you don’t provide links, so I have to rely on your paraphrasing) with what Christians understand by sin, redemption, they’re not worth replying to.

The fact that these gnu atheists say that “god likes the attention” speaks volumes of their intellectual honesty.
I’ve often found atheists to be some of the most narrow minded people on Earth. They can’t accept the notion that something in the Universe could ever be greater than they are. :rolleyes:
 
An interesting theory. Which could explain a LOT here.

An interesting theory, to think you are somehow deficient.

Churches are emptying because people conclude they have been fed myths and lies.

People can lead normal lives without OCD, guilt-trips and without the need to obsess about silly things.

That was a refreshing post. 👍
 
I can’t walk down the street without being reminded of the plain fact of sin in this world. It’s not some imaginary symptom, unless one doesn’t see problems with drug abuse, greed, homelessness, exploitation, and so on.

A person who takes this kind of argument would have to convince me that everything in the world is good, which is a pretty difficult argument to make.
 
An interesting theory. Which could explain a LOT here.

An interesting theory, to think you are somehow deficient.
And you think that things are hunky-dory in this world?
Churches are emptying because people conclude they have been fed myths and lies.
Protestant churches, possibly to some extent. Catholic churches, no. People leave the Catholic Church because they are offered rationalizations for doing what they want to do.

[quoye]People can lead normal lives without OCD, guilt-trips and without the need to obsess about silly things.
Oh, so there are no non-religous people with OCD? There are no non-religous people who feel guilt? There are no non-religous people who get hung up on “silly things”?

They say we get the opponents we deserve…
 
The guy that presented it to me was more a pantheist than atheist. He wasn’t saying there wasn’t suffering in the world, just that we aren’t inharently flawed. He rejected the notion of original sin.
 
**Roscoe

He wasn’t saying there wasn’t suffering in the world, just that we aren’t inharently flawed. He rejected the notion of original sin. **

Anyone who thinks we are not inherently flawed is inherently flawed. 😉
 
An interesting theory that seems to be a slight variant and expression of the common modern opinion.

As other posters have noted, though, its weakness is asserting in any way that there isn’t anything “wrong” with us: i.e. that we are all perfectly healthy, which is ridiculous. If it relies on this, it will remain a weak and unpopular theory.

But I think the more contemporary belief is not that there isn’t something wrong with us, but that “the disease” and “its cure” are simply not “religious” (or more accurately for us: spiritual) in nature and, therefore, Christianity or religion generally is a kind of mistaken diagnosis; rather - it is believed - it is science and medicine and/or ideology (perhaps under another name, but in effect the same) that is “the cure” and “the disease” can be manifold: i.e. not specifically one thing (i.e. “sin” or, as they would rather believe, perhaps something like “genetic disorders”) but many things (though certainly not “sin” or “religious” or “spiritual” in nature) that is the real or - at the very least - the more pressing problem deserving of our care, focus and attention; and these we can cure by our own efforts, with time, at least within the realm of possibility.

Perhaps, it is reasonably -and somewhat humbly- suggested, some of the things “wrong” with us simply can’t be cured by science; however, such problems would thus be incapble of cure at all, and this we will just have to accept like mature adults (e.g. mortality and “the fact” that once we die we are rendered nothing and, as they say, “that’s that”). Now that is the more dangerous theory or belief because it sounds so rational, reasonable and realistic: that is what makes it so tempting.

So how to deal with this? Whatever the answer is, if we succesfully do deal with it then the subject theory given by the OP collapses (“MSbP”) too because you are, so to speak, striking at the root.

I think the answer will be summarized by something like “both spiritual and physical”, with each maintaining its own proper place and sphere and with the spiritual being primary or necessary. Notice also that merely demonstrating the existence of spiritual and immaterial reality does not affect the theory, belief or opinion itself: what needs to be demonstrated is, one: that the thing primarily “wrong” with us is spiritual; two: that this “disease” requires a spiritual cure and can’t be cured physically or at least certainly not only by physical means; and finally. three: that this medicine is only available in or from “religion” (or better, “the spiritual”) and specifically or, at least, most perfectly offered or given through the Christian religion and especially the Catholic one.

Pax,
August.
 
The truth is that Christianity is built upon the concept that we are all “sinners”, we all deserve eternal punishment, and there is nothing we can do to change that. Works are insufficient. No matter if you lead an exemplary life, crawl on your knees every day, pour ash over your head; you cannot gather enough “brownie points” to deserve admittance to heaven. We need “salvation” and we need God’s “grace” (whatever that means). Once you buy into the concept that you are a “sinner”, you are pretty much doomed. One of the seven deadly sins is “pride”. You are supposed to look into a mirror, and see a despicable sinner, an abomination in God’s eyes. Christianity thrives on guilt. The number one requirement is obedience.

If you wish to see a miniscule amount of the horrible “guilt” inculcated by this horrifying world view, just visit the Moral Theology forum.
 
The truth is that Christianity is built upon the concept that we are all “sinners”, we all deserve eternal punishment, and there is nothing we can do to change that. Works are insufficient. No matter if you lead an exemplary life, crawl on your knees every day, pour ash over your head; you cannot gather enough “brownie points” to deserve admittance to heaven. We need “salvation” and we need God’s “grace” (whatever that means). Once you buy into the concept that you are a “sinner”, you are pretty much doomed. One of the seven deadly sins is “pride”. You are supposed to look into a mirror, and see a despicable sinner, an abomination in God’s eyes. Christianity thrives on guilt. The number one requirement is obedience.

If you wish to see a miniscule amount of the horrible “guilt” inculcated by this horrifying world view, just visit the Moral Theology forum.
It reminds me of this famous piece “Sinners in the hand of an angry God” by Jonathan Edwards who was an old Puritan preacher in pre-revolution American colonies. Very Calvinistic. This is our American heritage, and thereby influences American Catholicism, although not necessarily the whole of Catholicism and quite a skewed perception.

Catholicism also teaches that God desires the salvation of mankind, and that God created us in his own image and likeness, and saw that we are good. Catholicism teaches that we are, through Christ, adopted sons and daughters of God, that we are members of the body of Christ, that we are Christ’s hands & feet, eyes & ears in the world, that we are light for the world, and leaven for the bread, that we are building the kingdom of God on earth. Why would God trust that responsibility to despicable sinners & abominations? And if we are all despicable sinners & abominations, why would God even bother? Why bother to leaven the bread if it’s a pile of stinking mold that you’re just going to throw out?
 
We need “salvation” and we need God’s “grace” (whatever that means).
To be favoured in a special way, and in this respect closely linked to the ideas of magnanimity and mercy:

From the Catholic Encyclopedia, Grace, Under the Heading of Nature of Actual Grace:

(a) The definition of actual grace is based on the idea of grace in general, which, in Biblical, classical, and modern language, admits of a fourfold meaning. In the first place, subjectively, grace signifies good will, benevolence; then, objectively, it designates every favor which proceeds from this benevolence and, consequently, every gratuitous gift (donum gratuitum, beneficium). In the former (subjective) sense, the king’s grace grants life to the criminal condemned to death; in the latter (objective) sense the king distributes graces to his lieges. In this connection grace also stands for charm, attractiveness; as when we speak of the three Graces in mythology, or of the grace poured forth on the lips of the bridegroom (Ps. xliv, 3), because charm calls forth benevolent love in the giver and prompts him to the bestowal of benefactions. As the recipient of graces experiences, on his part, sentiments of gratefulness, and expresses these sentiments in thanks, the word gratioe (plural of gratia) also stands for thanksgiving in the expressions gratias agere and Deo gratias, which have their counterpart in the English, to say grace after meals.

A comparison of these four senses of the word grace reveals a clear relationship of analogy among them, since grace, in its objective signification of “gratuitous gift” or “favor”, occupies a central position around which the other meanings may be logically grouped. For the attractiveness of the recipient, as well as the benevolence of the giver is the cause, whereas the expression of thanks which proceeds from the grateful disposition is the effect, of the gratuitous gift of grace. This last-mentioned meaning is, consequently, the fundamental one in grace. The characteristic idea of a free gift must be taken in the strict sense and exclude merit in every form, be it in the range of commutative justice as, e.g., in sale and purchase, or in that of distributive justice, as is the case in the so-called remunerations and gratuities. Hence St. Paul says: “If by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace” (Rom., xi, 6).

So, in summary and to clear up the confusion of terms, our “salvation” arises entirely from “God’s love for us”, which we in no way have merited but comes merely from God’s loving us; as, for example, a woman might be charmed by a man’s affection as a consequence of that which she has by nature (beauty) and by, perhaps, discipline, education or training (of her father and mother and teachers generally); of course, the latter were given and only simply because, again, she was who she was and not on account of any peculiar merit on her part. Thus, if she wonders for the cause or causes in herself of what she “did” to “earn” his love, she has missed the reality entirely and, indeed, such inquisitiveness could ruin the affection in the first place. In fact, I frequently see men becoming frustrated with their girlfriends/wives exactly because they seem to think they did something or had to do something to “merit” or “earn” their lovers affection: that is simply not the case, of course. She is loved just because of who and what she is and not -at least primarily or necessarily- on account of any peculiar merit (though of course this is not impossible and such things too may also be loved).

For the biblical basis of this see, e.g., the Song of Songs.
 
We need “salvation” and we need God’s “grace” (whatever that means).
Again, though this quote is from the Pope and it appeared in a post on another thread, but the topic overlaps at this point and illustrates, I think, the idea perfectly:
HOMILY OF HOLY FATHER FRANCIS
Sunday, 13 October 2013
In the Psalm we said: “Sing to the Lord a new song, for he has done marvellous things” (Ps 98:1).
Today we consider one of the marvellous things which the Lord has done: Mary! A lowly and weak creature like ourselves, she was chosen to be the Mother of God, the Mother of her Creator.
  1. First: God surprises us. The story of Naaman, the commander of the army of the king of Aram, is remarkable. In order to be healed of leprosy, he turns to the prophet of God, Elisha, who does not perform magic or demand anything unusual of him, but asks him simply to trust in God and to wash in the waters of the river. Not, however, in one of the great rivers of Damascus, but in the little stream of the Jordan. Naaman is left surprised, even taken aback. What kind of God is this who asks for something so simple? He wants to turn back, but then he goes ahead, he immerses himself in the Jordan and is immediately healed (cf. 2 Kg 5:1-4). There it is: God surprises us. It is precisely in poverty, in weakness and in humility that he reveals himself and grants us his love, which saves us, heals us and gives us strength. He asks us only to obey his word and to trust in him.
This was the experience of the Virgin Mary. At the message of the angel, she does not hide her surprise. It is the astonishment of realizing that God, to become man, had chosen her, a simple maid of Nazareth. Not someone who lived in a palace amid power and riches, or one who had done extraordinary things, but simply someone who was open to God and put her trust in him, even without understanding everything: “Here I am, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word” (Lk 1:38). That was her answer. God constantly surprises us, he bursts our categories, he wreaks havoc with our plans. And he tells us: Trust me, do not be afraid, let yourself be surprised, leave yourself behind and follow me!
Today let us all ask ourselves whether we are afraid of what God might ask, or of what he does ask. Do I let myself be surprised by God, as Mary was, or do I remain caught up in my own safety zone: in forms of material, intellectual or ideological security, taking refuge in my own projects and plans? Do I truly let God into my life? How do I answer him?

As we continue our celebration of the Eucharist, let us invoke Mary’s intercession. May she help us to be open to God’s surprises, to be faithful to him each and every day, and to praise and thank him, for he is our strength. Amen.
 
Hi Roscoe,

Do you have a link?
I was just talking to someone at a party and we got on the subject of religion. He laid out his theory of Christianity being MSbP. I thought it was interesting and didn’t have much of a response to it. Just seeing what others thought.

One question he asked that stuck with me was, If Adam’s destructive act of disobedience saddled the whole human race with original sin, why didn’t the redemptive act also free all humans from original sin and return us to a state of grace? Why was the redemptive act not as complete as the destructive one?

I didn’t know.
 
**Roscoe

One question he asked that stuck with me was, If Adam’s destructive act of disobedience saddled the whole human race with original sin, why didn’t the redemptive act also free all humans from original sin and return us to a state of grace? Why was the redemptive act not as complete as the destructive one? **

Because until we live out our lives we have not proven we deserve to be redeemed.
 
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