Christianity unity possibly in our lifeline

[Parascheva1014]

For instance, such as me, being a Catholic, joining your communion and considered as having a Eucharest (and vice versa), is enough already.

That we be like having sex before marriage in the hopes that the baby could keep us together dispite our obvious incompatability. We don’t take Eucharist with people we do not first have theological agreement with.

 

[dzheremi]

Why does this topic come up every other day? If we spent half the time and energy that is spent WRITING about how unity is fated to happen actually DOING something on a local level to try to relate to each other, we might actually get somewhere!

The number one complaint I have heard from Orthodox friends of mine when the spectre of “unity” with Rome comes up is that it appears that Rome is forever stuck in the mindset of “Roma Locuta, Finita Est”, so they do not understand how, absent that presupposition, all ecumenical talk with Rome is seen very suspiciously and negatively. Previous “uniting” efforts effectively carved out large sections of Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches and united them to doctrines that, from an Orthodox perspective, are unnecessary at best, heretical at worst. Consider, for instance, that the liturgical renewal preached from Rome since Vatican II to the Eastern Churches in its communion centers around regaining lost eastern spiritual and ecclesiastical traditions. They weren’t lost because the Eastern Churches were left alone to develop organically…

Is it any wonder that so many not in communion with Rome view the prospect as distasteful? Who wouldn’t prefer to stay in their own church and not be dictated to in a one-sided relationship with a western power that is alien to ones own spiritual tradition? These may not be the nicest questions in the world, but as I’ve explored more deeply early Christian writings (from before the great schism), I can’t help but think that the modern Roman Catholic Church isn’t something I would want to unite with either, were I free to make the decision over. We haven’t even kept our own traditions, so how can anyone who has be expected to settle for less, as we have?

 

[DavidMark]

dzheremi: Baha’u’llah, the Unifier of Mankind, lived in Iraq for ten years (1853-1863) before being exiled to Palestine. His movements were predicted exactly in Micah:

7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain. (He travelled north from Baghdad on the Tigris, sailing on the Black Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, from Constantinople, a heavily fortified city to Akko, such a strongly fortified city that the Psalms 60:9 & 108:10 speak of it. Napoleon Bonaparte could not take it in 1799)
7:13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
7:14 **Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel:… **(Baha’u’llah established the spiritual and administrative World Center of His Faith on Mount Carmel, overlooking Haifa)
7:15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things. (As the Israelites were in the wilderness 40 years, Baha’u’llah’s Ministry was 40 years: 1852-1892)
7:16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

Now, we’ll see if anyone heard what’s been said.

 

[KathleenGee]

I took a ministry class on ecumenism, but my focus was on Lutheranism and Anglicanism…I think the Filoque issue would be something I would side with the Latin rite…but I do see reason with the others…

Adam and Eve were pagan myths that go back to ancient times in the land around Iraq and Turkey…Code of Hammurabi…

My pastor was saying Adam and Eve and Noah probably didn’t exist…but there was a great flood at one time, and as people didn’t travel more than 20 miles or so in their lifetime, the expanse of the flood could cause someone to think it had covered the whole world…but the Jewish people drew on these myths to find meaning to life’s questions.

There are complaints by Orthodox about the poor liturgies coming out of Vatican II and the constant change…which alot of Catholics complained about as well…

St. Thomas Aquinas did not believe in the Immaculate Conception, and St. Thomas also said that women had defective genes…St. Augustine thought you could tell a woman was pregnant or not by tying something on to a string and swinging it back and forth over her…Perhaps we are each an Adam and Eve…

 

[dsears]

I will say as a 24 year old at a protestant seminary who was just confirmed Catholic a week ago (actually to be accurate about 6 days 23 hours and 30 minutes ago ) I do hope for the sake of Christianity that we can be one. I think the more I study and look at the state of western Christendom we need that unity because without it western society seems to be in a mess. Most of Europe is in bad shape, and I’m thinking that we are headed down the same road here. If we could be one than perhaps the secular society would have more respect for us and perhaps take us a bit more seriously than they do now.

Saying all of that I do not believe that the church will be one again at least not for along time. I am here at MTSO in central Ohio and I see many different denominations around campus. They have no unifying factor anymore. Some of the people here are rather orthodox in their ideas, and then others are so heritical that I would not even let my cat back home listen to them. And while they claim to want unity they are unwilling to lay aside their own predjudices about what the church teaches. (By heritical ideas I mean on such things as Abortion and Homosexuality and such.) Unless the protestants that support these ideas come more in line with the church’s teaching I do not see unity happening.

 

[agiosotheos]

(By heritical ideas I mean on such things as Abortion and Homosexuality and such.)

Oh brother.

 

[DavidMark]

There can never be unity within a single church, let alone with other churches, as long as we see with the eyes of differentiation. If you behold all things with the eye of God, the different minutae dissolve into irrelevance, really!
I tell you the Day of the Unity has dawned for those who will see.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zephaniah 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

**There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. **(Bahá’u’lláh, GWB, p. 217)

O Thou kind Lord! Unite all. Let the religions agree and make the nations one, so that they may see each other as one family and the whole earth as one home. May they all live together in perfect harmony. O God! Raise aloft the banner of the oneness of mankind.
O God! Establish the Most Great Peace. Cement Thou, O God, the hearts together. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 100)

 

[KathleenGee]

dsears,
God bless you! and totally agree with you, living in the Pacific NW, and seeing all the different denominations, and the great number of agnostics and atheists as well.

 

[KathleenGee]

Back to the Orthodox,

I have read about the history of the treatment of the Jews in Eastern countries, as well as picked up a scent of it in some of the posts by the Orthodox here.

Here I would say that the Latin rite is correct in its relationship with the Jews. They are and always have been God’s chosen people. St. Paul said that God hardened the hearts of the Jewish people so that the Gospel could spread to the Gentiles. That implies that it is not all the intent of the Jews to reject Jesus. Many just can’t accept the Trinity, or reflect back in times that they had to loose so much of the Hebrew culture.

We venerate the Jewish people because we participate and share in their salvation history when we attend Mass and hear the readings of the Word of God.

We draw on their spiritual life when we reflect on the Psalms found in the Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours.

I work among Jewish people and have found many of them upright. They have their factions and in Israel, there are atleast 22 different sub-identities of Jewish people.

Our unity is found in Jesus. And we can’t have concern only for our own flesh and blood, meaning our own ethnic people without denying the Gospels either when Jesus challenged what good it was if we only cared for our own families…or St. Paul when he stated whether we are Greek, etc., we are one with the Lord Jesus.

 

[DavidMark]

They are and always have been God’s chosen people…
Our unity is found in Jesus. And we can’t have concern only for our own flesh and blood, meaning our own ethnic people without denying the Gospels either when Jesus challenged what good it was if we only cared for our own families…or St. Paul when he stated whether we are Greek, etc., we are one with the Lord Jesus.

Hi Kathleen,
From my perspective, Jews returned to the Land of Israel as was promised, at the end of the time of the gentiles. This was one of the signs Jesus gave in Luke 21:7 & 24
Non-Jewish countries had ruled over Eretz Israel for most of its history. The Babylonians were followed by the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Muslims and finally the British, who ousted the Ottoman Turks.
The British had also been instrumental in coercing the Turks to pass an edict of Toleration, which permitted the Jews to practice their religion and settle in Palestine, which they did in increasing numbers, after 1844. This was on 1 Nísan, 21 March, 1844, exactly 2300 years after 456 BC, a date connected to the rebuilding of the Temple. Thus the 2300 “days” of Daniel 8:13-14 are fulfilled.

What does all this mean? --that the Jews could not all have been converted by Christians or Muslims, if there were to be some to return, like they did.
From my perspective the Jews are still chosen. If they were not protecting the Land, Arab armies would have over-run the Baha’i properties and shrines, which stand for a greater unity of the children of Abraham and beyond. In this I also see Archangel Michael’s protection for them, as if they had the Ark with them again!

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Parascheva1014;

We don’t take Eucharist with people we do not first have theological agreement with.

This reminds me of a terrible joke

Two ministers were arguing over a point of theology, when one minister said, you continue to do things your way, and I will continue to do things God’s way.

It sounds like theological agreement is more important, than the two Greatest Commandments.

Peace

Eric

 

[Lutheranteach]

Depends on how you are defining unity. I think there is a lot of unity if you are defining open church relationships between certain denominations. That is the best that could ever be hoped for IMHO.

 

[agiosotheos]

They are and always have been God’s chosen people.

That’s not true. The Church is now God’s chosen people.

St. Paul said that God hardened the hearts of the Jewish people so that the Gospel could spread to the Gentiles.

Not all of them. We must make a distinction between those Jews who rejected Jesus and those who accepted them. The Jews who accepted Jesus constituted the remnant faithful, and the first members of the Church. They alone remained God’s chosen people, not to the inclusion of the apostates.

That implies that it is not all the intent of the Jews to reject Jesus.

Could we get a cite on the Paul quotation? I don’t really buy the idea that the apostate Jews did not intend to reject Jesus.

Many just can’t accept the Trinity,

The doctrine of the Trinity wasn’t even formulated at that time, so what you’re saying here doesn’t even make sense.

We venerate the Jewish people

You venerate those who rejected Jesus? Where is the evidence of this?

 

[agiosotheos]

Greetings and peace be with you Parascheva1014;

This reminds me of a terrible joke

Two ministers were arguing over a point of theology, when one minister said, you continue to do things your way, and I will continue to do things God’s way.

It sounds like theological agreement is more important, than the two Greatest Commandments.

Peace

Eric

Just because something is a fundamental for intercommunion doesn’t mean it is more important. On top of this, there are certain regulations of Communion in the EO tradition which establish requirements of peace and love between members of the Church.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you agiosotheos;

Just because something is a fundamental for intercommunion doesn’t mean it is more important. On top of this, there are certain regulations of Communion in the EO tradition which establish requirements of peace and love between members of the Church.

All the law and the prophets of God hang on the greatest commandments, if only we could hang unity on these commandments, then everything else would fall into place.

blessings,

Eric

 

[agiosotheos]

Greetings and peace be with you agiosotheos;

All the law and the prophets of God hang on the greatest commandments, if only we could hang unity on these commandments, then everything else would fall into place.

blessings,

Eric

Love cannot be true while truth is compromised. As such, the dogmatic Tradition of the Church cannot be compromised for the sake of some abstract concept of “love”. Because that would also result in compromising of love itself. There is more fundamental to unity than simply being amicable towards each other.

 

[swariffin]

That we be like having sex before marriage in the hopes that the baby could keep us together dispite our obvious incompatability. We don’t take Eucharist with people we do not first have theological agreement with.

I see. In your eyes, those who can be saved is the one who has the “correct” theology. I wonder where did Jesus said that theology saves people?

 

[swariffin]

Just because something is a fundamental for intercommunion doesn’t mean it is more important. On top of this, there are certain regulations of Communion in the EO tradition which establish requirements of peace and love between members of the Church.

I believe that is what the Roman Catholic teach me too.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you agiosotheos

Love cannot be true while truth is compromised.

All the law of God is the truth, all the prophets of God are truth, and we know that all law and prophets hang on, and depend on the greatest commandments. So why can’t we simply hang Christian Unity on the greatest commandments?

As such, the dogmatic Tradition of the Church cannot be compromised for the sake of some abstract concept of “love”.

How can you call the greatest commandments, some abstract concept of love?

Because that would also result in compromising of love itself. There is more fundamental to unity than simply being amicable towards each other.

Love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples. We seem to lack this love for each other, hence it seems that all men do not recognise us all as the disciples of Jesus.

Blessings

Eric

 

[Hesychios]

I see. In your eyes, those who can be saved is the one who has the “correct” theology. I wonder where did Jesus said that theology saves people?

You beg the question. But in fact it is not that one thinks theology saves people, probably the opposite would be more correct. The via negativa is helpful here.

I think perhaps that this is more about the worship… properly… of God. Not so directly related to who can be saved. We really do not know the mind of God, and we do not know limits to His love. To say someone cannot be saved for this or that reason is placing ourselves as judges over the souls of men, something no man is allowed to do.

I think Christianity alone of the major religions demands an accurate understanding of the divine we worship (note: not a ‘complete’ or ‘comprehensive’ or ‘thorough’ understanding, but what we do know should be accurate). In my opinion this is probably to avoid the prospect of worshiping a god of our own making. Once we invent a god or aspects of God, and adore, praise and honor this invention we are engaging in idol worship.

In other words if you believe something that is not actually true, and you worship this falsehood, you are worshiping a god of your own (or someone’s) making. It is like projecting. This is why the road to communion is not based upon compromise either: we cannot compromise our different projections into a common faith, it loses all credibility and non-believers would be perfectly justified in calling us on it.

It is hard to imagine what could be worse, but supposing we were all making up things about God and worshiping these products of our creaturely minds, each of us not particularly concerned that we all worshipped something different?

We are saved in community, after all. This is not a trip we take ourselves.

Christianity recognized this a long time ago, and in your own church there is still always a call to be aware of the danger of indifferentism. This is a very ancient demand our faith places upon us, so ancient it precedes all of the schisms and separates us from the Gnostics. Holy Orthodoxy is simply the same as your church on this point.