Christianity v. Buddhism

  • Thread starter Thread starter Pope_Noah_I
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
Lisa44:
I am not aware of this particular revellation. The ten commandments states “thou shalt not kill”.
No, it states “you shall not murder.” Are you seriously unaware of the many passages in the OT where God commands His people to kill? Just a few examples:

Exodus 21:12, 14-17, 23; Exodus 22:3, 18-20; 31:14-15; 35:2; Leviticus 20:2, 9-16, 27; 24:16-17, 21; Numbers 1:51; 3:10, 38; 15:35; 18:7; 35:16-18, 21, 30-31; Deut. 13:5, 9; 17:6-7; Joshua 7:15; Joshua 8:2 (see chap. 6 for clarification); and 1 Sam. 15:3.
God is not a “being”? What would give you that idea?
He didn’t say that the Christian view of God was that God was a “being.” He said that the Buddhist understanding of the creator is that the “creator” is just another being in the universe.
No. If they were or are pagan, they would not be saved, because paganism is the denial of the creator. Paganism is the worhsip of created things.
So are you saying that someone who doesn’t believe in a creator or who “worships” created beings cannot be saved? That the generous statements of Lumen Gentium apply only to monotheists?

And where do you get this definition that “paganism is the worship of created things”? How are you defining worship? What pagans worship created things, and what is your evidence for this?

Edwin
 
No, it states “you shall not murder.” Are you seriously unaware of the many passages in the OT where God commands His people to kill? Just a few examples:

Hi Contarini,
I see you are a Protestant, welcome to Catholic Forum.
Catholics translate it as thou shalt not kill. (from the vulgate)

Exodus 21:12, 14-17, 23; Exodus 22:3, 18-20; 31:14-15; 35:2; Leviticus 20:2, 9-16, 27; 24:16-17, 21; Numbers 1:51; 3:10, 38; 15:35; 18:7; 35:16-18, 21, 30-31; Deut. 13:5, 9; 17:6-7; Joshua 7:15; Joshua 8:2 (see chap. 6 for clarification); and 1 Sam. 15:3.

I am not an expert in Torah study. I would have to take each reference and research it and then look at in in its proper context. This thread is not the place to do that but you are welcome to start a thread on ‘references to killing in the Old Testament’ or something like that.
Speaking as I was to Rossum, we are having a very general discussion. It is not meant to be specific. I think if that you IMPLIED to a Jewish person that their scripture reveals a God who encourages people to kill willy nilly you would probably get an education on the spot. I however am not the person to inform you. But, in time I will certainly find the answers if you cannot look them up for yourself on the web.
He didn’t say that the Christian view of God was that God was a “being.” He said that the Buddhist understanding of the creator is that the “creator” is just another being in the universe.

I realize that.

So are you saying that someone who doesn’t believe in a creator or who “worships” created beings cannot be saved? That the generous statements of Lumen Gentium apply only to monotheists?

You don’t make much sense my friend. According to the bible, the old and new testaments, no, people who reject God are not favored by him. Remember the golden calf incident? Moses came down from the mountain and was shocked that they were already backsliding into pagan idolatry. Ring any bells?

And where do you get this definition that “paganism is the worship of created things”? How are you defining worship? What pagans worship created things, and what is your evidence for this?

Edwin, good luck with your studies. I see you are a Protestant and you can learn a lot here at Catholic forum. Also, regarding paganism, its covered ad nauseum in the bible. Peace be with you.

Edwin
 
The “inclusivist” view, which is generally held by Catholics and by moderate Protestants, would say that everyone who is saved is saved by Jesus even if they have never heard of Jesus. This position would distinguish between “followers of a non-Christian religion being saved” and “being saved by following a non-Christian religion.” You assume that these two things are the same.
The underlying question is “Must I be a Christian to be saved”. From that point of view it does not matter which version is correct. I am aware that some Christians take a narrower, non-inclusivist, view than others. Lisa44 seemed to be indicating a narrow position on the question so I probed that area.

rossum
 
I am not aware of this particular revellation. The ten commandments states “thou shalt not kill”.
Contarini has posted a number of OT references to God killing. To pick just one, the slaughter at Jericho:So all the people making a shout, and the trumpets sounding, when the voice and the sound thundered in the ears of the multitude, the walls forthwith fell down: and every man went up by the place that was over against him: and they took the city,

And killed all that were in it, man and woman, young and old. The oxen also, and the sheep, and the asses, they slew with the edge of the sword.

Joshua 6:20-21
Remember that to a Buddhist killing animals is almost as bad as killing men, women and children. Those people and animals were killed on God’s orders. Why would I want to worship such a bloodthirsty God?

You are at liberty to search for a similar passage in Buddhist scriptures where the Buddha kills, or orders a killing.
God is not a “being”
Why not? If He exists then He must “be”, so He is a “be-ing”. Both Buddhism and Christianity have no problem with non-material living beings: angels, gandhabbas or whatever.

rossum
 
Does the soul, as defined by Catholicism, possess the characteristic of being permanent and unchanging?

OK, but you speak of “one’s consciousness”, implying a “one” who owns a “consciousness”. Who is this “one” who possesses this “consciousness”? “Who” is aware of the fact that consciousness is reborn? Are you implying that Buddhism teaches that there is a “one” who owns a “consciousness”?

God creates. And so, creates particular things - this, rather than that. (So to speak - God-talk is very imprecise - but there it is…)​

Creation is of specific entities - not of entities-in-general, but of this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and… so on. The nature of human love reflects this specificity - it’s not some unfocused,abstract, unexercised “love-in-general” that is shown, but love from person A, to another person - B. It is inter-personal, &, a form of communion between persons.

The soul is what is at the bottom of human individuality. It is a spirit, but one that is created, & is not meant to be apart from the body: soul & body together = a human being; it is unnatural to either of them to be separated. To be created is to be distinct from God - indeed, to belong to a wholly “different” order of being. So while God is Spirit, creatures are not “made of” God. Nor are they angels - for angels have no bodies. To be human is to be an animal, just as chimps are animals - but, an animal with a vocation to God. Other animals (& plants !) do not, it appears, have that. A daffodil is not called & created & intended to see God face to face - but men are. But whether daffodils or chimps have a vocation to see God is possibly better left to another thread…

If the soul lacked all stability in being, this vocation to God would not be possible. Neither would it be possible to have a history with a goal. The thing that strikes me, is that - from what little I’ve read - Buddhism allows for eternal recurrence, whereas Judaism & Christianity both believe that history has a goal, & is thus linear. The specificity of the identity of the soul is thus one example of a pattern - that things** are** those things, & are not others. The doctrine that there is a single Transcendent Creator-God is of the greatest importance for this belief in the specificity and “purposedness” of entities - the soul, the totality of human experience that is one aspect of history, & most importantly of all, the Person of Jesus Christ.

That’s probably all rot - but anyway…
 
The question as to the relation of faith to direct spiritual experience is a perennial question within Christianity in particular and in the transcendental religions in general. It is heightened in dialogue between Christians and Buddhists especially.

First, it should be pointed out how dependent both traditions are upon faith and experience. The Buddhist must have great faith in his teacher, and the merit of the path or practice he follows, that it will generate the experience he seeks. The Christian must have real experiences of the Spiritual Presence as part of the fruit of faith, as Paul clearly teaches (Romans 8:9-11). Let us first agree that this is not a discussion about the whethers of faith or experience (and therefore a question of this religion or that), but the whats and hows of them in the spiritual life.

Before more can be said, however, there is a recurring mistake concerning the meanings both of faith and direct experience. Faith, for example, is nearly always misconstrued as belief in that for which one has no evidence. This is the straw-man that most Buddhist apologists love to bat down, as well as other western style atheists. However, the root words give us some guidance. The Latin, “fides,” means primarily “trust” and “confidence.” It is true that the Greek, “pistis,” meant for Plato “belief,” especially in the sense of something unverified. However, the word is technically a contraction of two words “pi-stis,” and it meant especially a physical act based upon some conviction, sustained in confidence (resonance with the resurrection as an act and the call to belief in the power of resurrection in Mark is heavy here). So, let it be pointed out the resonance of conviction, especially as courageous act in the face of something which poses an ultimate threat (death, guilt, emptiness), with trust and let us abandon the simplistic view of faith as mere belief. So, trust (especially in the sense of a covenant or agreement), conviction, courage, fidelity, are all possibilities which can avoid the misunderstanding of faith as simply belief in something for which one has no evidence.

Many Christians have taught through the ages that faith in maturity becomes its own unique kind of experience. Repentance in the new testament is translated from the Greek term “metanoia,” which means literally “go beyond (meta-) the mind (-noia) that you have.” It is like “the breathing in of a different air.” Such faith cannot be sharply distinguished from direct experience. William James has catalogued such experiences of the Spirit in Varieties of Religious Experience with such profundity that I cannot imagine anyone in the spiritual walk could read them and not identify with something within its pages.

In this way, a Buddhism which does not take up contention with the significance of faith, but demands that it must lead to direct experience, is a justified critique. The road runs both ways, however.

The Buddhist, usually, has a motive: enlightenment. His very motive undermines his potential for enlightenment, however, because enlightenment is nothing other than that appreciation for the “outrageously mundane.” The only way for him to experience it is to allow it to happen to him. Yet in meditation he is trying to have it actively. Such an image resonates strongly with the picture of faith we get when Peter steps out onto the water and begins to sink when he tenses up and looks away from Christ to the water. My friend’s father, an Episcopal priest and meditational practitioner, used to advise people that the “observer” was very subtle and difficult to recognize. When people give a concerted effort, the creeping in of disturbing thoughts cannot be avoided. To the great frustration of many a practitioner, he would correctly advise them, “do not resist those thoughts, but let them come and pass.” Faith as trust also, obviously, means this: a relaxed openness to the impact of the Spirit. What the practitioner doesn’t realize is that he is trying to have a specific experience, but enlightenment isn’t a specific experience! And yet, on the other hand, it is filled with the colour of everything that is experienced. Thus, faith as trust also means this: a relaxed openness to the impact of the Spirit.

Some Buddhists will contest this and say their initiative (the savior is not the creator) is the difference between themselves and the Christians, who have their spiritual experiences passively by grace. All I can say to those who take this view is that time and again Buddhist friends of mine have come to me finally frustrated, and all I can say to them is, “by grace, friend; rely on God’s timing, not your own.”

In my experience, this is the single most difficult thing for the Buddhist to come to terms with: God’s timing. On the other hand, in my experience the single most difficult thing for the Christian to come to terms with is that faith, if it is real, means a transformation of the self so that it becomes an open vehicle of the divine love. Yet, just when they grasp this part, they wish to take credit, and forget that it is “by grace alone.” To confess Christ and to embody the love of the Spirit are not separate realities for new testament religion. Yet, continuously, in the name of “faith,” there has been so much blood shed. We have not read John’s epistle, or Paul’s 13th chapter, or James’, or Jesus’ own sermons, with understanding. We have regressed continually to tribalistic thinking, and failed to see faith as trust for faith as loyalty to a particular group, perhaps now the catholic group, tomorrow another.

My point is this: faith and experience converge in love’s openness to the Spirit in the concrete moment. If the Buddhist and the Christian can understand this, they will both transcend their own religion in a way that would have made the founders of both pleased.

Peace and joy of God’s eternal kingdom,
GM
 
Contarini has posted a number of OT references to God killing. To pick just one, the slaughter at Jericho:So all the people making a shout, and the trumpets sounding, when the voice and the sound thundered in the ears of the multitude, the walls forthwith fell down: and every man went up by the place that was over against him: and they took the city,

And killed all that were in it, man and woman, young and old. The oxen also, and the sheep, and the asses, they slew with the edge of the sword.

Joshua 6:20-21
Remember that to a Buddhist killing animals is almost as bad as killing men, women and children. Those people and animals were killed on God’s orders. Why would I want to worship such a bloodthirsty God?

You are at liberty to search for a similar passage in Buddhist scriptures where the Buddha kills, or orders a killing.

Why not? If He exists then He must “be”, so He is a “be-ing”. Both Buddhism and Christianity have no problem with non-material living beings: angels, gandhabbas or whatever.

rossum
Hi Rossum,
As I said to Contrarini I’m not a torah student. I’m not a Jew either. I don’t have answers to those questions however I did forward your question to a Rabbi and I will let you know what he says, ok?

The way you think of being as existing or something in existence is fine except when it comes to God who is outside of creation. In Christianity we THINK of God as the Father, and indeed, that is the best example of his nature that we can grasp. However, God is not a man and not a father like that. In the torah, it says that if we were to see God face to face we would die. We simply, in our mortal fashion, cannot comprehend it. But we do know something about God by what his prophets tell us, and for Christians, through the Messiah. Jesus was a human being as well as the divine incarnation. We can discuss that certainly. But to characterize God as a being would be wrong. There is also the Holy Spirit. A spirit sent by God or Jesus to us for confirmation. God sends the Holy Spirit, so we can experience that. However, we can not experience God directly. Like I said, its impossible.
 
I should qualify:🙂 Christ is both human and divine.
The Buddha was a man like you and I.

So to call Christ a buddha is really really heretical. You should confess this to your Priest ok. It would be good for you to get some guidance on this.🙂
Vatican II’s document Nostra Aetate says that: “We do not deny what is true in any religion.”

Now what do we say of a man who lives without knowing of suffering for many years, then sees three example of others suffering, becomes compassionate to others’ suffering, and because of other’s suffering and not his own, seeks to find how to end suffering by becoming a ascetic. This might be a man of perfect conscience.

This is not to take away anything from the Hebrew line of religious revelation. And we are told, by St. Paul that loving “rejoices in the truth.” We must not deny what is true in other faiths.

Buddhism does not deny anything Christian, for even the way to discover and atone for sin is to declare: “I am a lost child of God.”

A Buddah being a teacher, I call Jesus, Dhammapada Buddah, and I believe he accepts that.
 
It seems to me that Buddhism very much denies the truth of Christianity, since it denies the reality of creation. In other words, Buddhism implies that our own consciousness is merely an illusion. Everything is connected and one, and your life will be more pleasing the more you come to understand this by floating back into unity.

Catholic belief posits that God created the universe, and that while He may permeate it, the two are not the same. Thus, it follows that the execution of divine justice might imply that some of the universe be saved and transformed, while other parts of the universe are consumed into nothingness. This is where we get the allegories of the vineyard, sower, harvest, dividing sword, etc.

ASIDE: I refuse to treat the concept of karma as a serious concept, as it seems quite lazy and primitive. I know others might disagree with me here, but I suppose it might all depend on how you choose to interpret the historical, religious, and moral meanings of the Book of Job.]

It seems to me that the greatest mystery of both the Eastern and Western traditions, is the mystery of our own existence, and the apparent free will that goes along with it. Is this apparent free will genuine or an illusion?

The Buddhist will point to modern physics and cognitive science, and say that there appears to be no rational explanation for believing in the Cartesian dualism that most Christians seems to adopt. He might further say that there is no free will, or he might (like Daniel Dennett) say that freedom or free will is real, but then define away any aspect of real individual choice. Whatever his thoughts on free will, he will probably say that the causality we seem to experience is really an illusion.

The Christian will point to the progressive nature of history, and claim from direct experience of the heart, that we know the world is made better over time through Christian faith. Skeptics may disagree with the thesis that the “arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice,” but from a Christian perspective, you would have to have a hardened heart not to be appalled by the manner in which the Eastern world (before the modern age) resigned itself to live with such human suffering and abject misery without much concern for progressive justice and/or the expansion of economically productive capacity.

The greatest critique of Buddhism that I can think of is that it allows for men to become too easily resigned to their surrouding circumstances. By minimizing the best expectations of meaning in our lives to achieving ordinary enlightenment and the proper enjoyment of simple pleasures (or else, reuniting with the unitary One), it becomes too tolerant of evil. As Tolstoy might say disapprovingly, “There are no conditions to which a man cannot become accustomed.”

For a Christian, on the other hand, there must be an acceptance of what we know from “common sense,” even though intellectually speaking, we still have no idea what it really means to have a free will that operates through the brain. Any type of language that tries to explain it, even to this day, ultimate fails to reveal the mechanism by which it could actually occur. It therefore remains a mystery, and Christians must simply have faith that their own free will, and thus their own souls, are not mere illusions (not as easy a thing as it may sound, to those who aren’t well acquainted with modern physics and cognitive science).

One thing that seems to stand out to me personally as a black mark on Catholicism, is that the Church seemed to play quite a reactionary role during the Enlightenment, when much moral progress was being made. Viewing world history from an American standpoint, I can see a lot of good that seemed to be done from Protestants and Freemasons, and in particular, those influential ideas on freedom emanating from Scotland, which had firmly rejected the Catholic Church. With hindsight, we can see that the Calvinist work ethic and the spirit of capitalism might have imploded in on itself as a result of some pretty extreme views (see e.g., predestination), but how humbling it seems that such efforts came from Protestants and not Catholics.
 
Just a couple weeks ago (I’m in college) I did a paper arguing the points of an essay on religions of the Axial Ages, and comparing them to Christianity-using an essay by C.S. Lewis. I posted this thread for some insight:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=355787

You can read through it yourself…there are some frekkn awesome points…especially down towards the end…

:cool:
 
With hindsight, we can see that the Calvinist work ethic and the spirit of capitalism might have imploded in on itself as a result of some pretty extreme views (see e.g., predestination), but how humbling it seems that such efforts came from Protestants and not Catholics.
I can see you’ve read your Max Weber. 👍

It stands to be pointed out, however, that it was the Calvinist demand in the total separation of God from creation that partly allowed the “implosion” as you put it of capitalism upon itself, an idea I hear too many Christians invoking without realizing what they are saying.

GM
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top