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tomarin
Guest
A couple of problems with this. One, Egypt isn’t an Islamic state – it doesn’t use the Qur’an as its constitution. Second, I’m pretty sure that non-Muslims no longer pay a tax in Muslim-majority countries in modern times. This was the common practice in classical Islamic civlization (and indeed I believe the Qur’an mandates it), but this is no longer the case.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
The priests that told me about the “tax” and other restrictions, told me that it is required as of this date. They did say, Egypt was one of the more “liberal” countries, but it still had restrictions of non-muslims that came with the penalty of prison or deportation.
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jakasaki
Guest
Religion in Egypt controls many aspects of social life and is endorsed by law.
The 2006 census counting method did not include religion, so the number of adherents of the different religions are usually rough estimates made by religious and non-governmental agencies.
Egypt is predominantly Muslim, with Muslims comprising between 85% and 90% of a population of around 80 million Egyptians
Almost the entirety of Egypt’s Muslims are Sunnis.
Most of the non-Muslims in Egypt are Christians, around 95% of whom belong to the native Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.
Sounds very islamic to me tomarin…
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tomarin
Guest
Well they’re definitely restricted in many ways; I don’t think Christians are allowed to occupy top posts in the Egyptian military, for example. But I’m a little surprised that they would be forced to pay a medieval tax when, as I understand it, this is not the practice in the rest of the Muslim world.
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tomarin
Guest
I’m not denying Muslims are the majority and Islam is the official religion, or that Christians face persecution. But an Islamic state is usually meant to be a state run on Islamic principles, with the Qur’an as its constitution. I don’t think Egypt is an “Islamic state” in that sense.
In other words, it’s a Muslim country, but not an Islamic state.
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Jay53
Guest
But it’s not just a medieval tax - it is mentioned in the Quran which is for all people at all times. I wonder, if there actually are countries not collecting this tax - is the Muslim ummah sinning by failing to do so?
Does anyone know which predominantly Islamic countries do collect this “tax”?
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elwill
Guest
For those who don’t know, the Jizya is a tax imposed on the Christians and Jews living under the protection of the Islamic state. However, it is not imposed on all Christians and Jews. It is only imposed on the men who have attained puberty. So therefore it is not imposed on the women and children. The tax is also imposed fairly and is not meant to be overburdening.
The Jizya tax guarantees the Christians and Jews complete protection under the Islamic state. If an enemy country attacks the Islamic country, the Islamic country has a duty to defend the Christians and Jews and the Christians and Jews are not even obliged to fight!
Muslims also have to pay a yearly tax called Zakat. Zakat is even binding on property, and jewellery. Zakat should also be paid in the form of food as well. The Jizya is not binding on the property of the Christians and Jews.
Zakah is one of the 5 pillars of Islam and it is compulsory on everyone. It is compulsory even on the non-Muslim, this is called Jizya. Jizya does not degrade the non-Muslim people, it actually brings equality. Since the Muslims are obliged to pay Zakah, then why cant non-Muslims pay Jizya? That brings equality between the two.
Malik said, “The sunna is that there is no jizya due from women or children of people of the Book, and that jizya is only taken from men who have reached puberty. The people of dhimma and the magians do not have to pay any zakat on their palms or their vines or their crops or their livestock. This is because zakat is imposed on the muslims to purify them and to be given back to their poor, whereas jizya is imposed on the people of the Book to humble them. As long as they are in the country they have agreed to live in, they do not have to pay anything on their property except the jizya. If, however, they trade in muslim countries, coming and going in them, a tenth is taken from what they invest in such trade. This is because jizya is only imposed on them on conditions, which they have agreed on, namely that they will remain in their own countries, and that war will be waged for them on any enemy of theirs, and that if they then leave that land to go anywhere else to do business they will haveto pay a tenth. Whoever among them does business with the people of Egypt, and then goes to Syria, and then does business with the people of Syria and then goes to Iraq and does business with them and then goes on to Madina, or Yemen, or other similar places, has to pay a tenth.
People of the Book and magians do not have to pay any zakat on any of their property, livestock, produce or crops. The sunna still continues like that. They remain in the deen they were in, and they continue to do what they used to do. If in any one year they frequently come and go in muslim countries then they have to pay a tenth every time they do so, since that is outside what they have agreed upon, and not one of the conditions stipulated for them. This is what I have seen the people of knowledge of our city doing.”
The Prophet(P) also says warning against being unjust to the People of Dhimma or impairing their rights: “The one who wrongs a covenanter or impairs his right or overworks him or forcibly takes something from him, I will be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgment”[10]. He also says: “The one who kills a covenanter will never smell the scent of heaven and its scent is found at the distance of forty years.”[11]
Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, wrote a letter of dhimma and covenant to the Christian people of Najraan which is conveyed to us by Ibn Sa’ad in his Tabaqaat:
“The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, wrote to the bishop of the sons of Al-Harith Ibn Ka’b and the bishops, clergymen, adherents and priests of Najraan, telling them that they are entitled to whatever property in their possession notwithstanding its being large or small including their synagogues, prayers, priests as well as the protection of Allah and His Messenger, no bishop may be removed from his bishopric, no priest will be denied his priesthood and no clergyman will be denied his ministry. Nothing of their rights may be breached or abolished and neither their authority nor any of their status-quo will be violated so long as they give sincere advice and put their conditions to order without being unjust or being wronged. This was executed by Al-Mughira.”
from the covenant of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, to Rabica Al-Hadrami, where he says:
“The Messenger of Allah wrote to Rabica Ibn Zi Marhab Al-Hadrami, his brothers and uncles that they are entitled to their property, palm trees, slaves, wells, trees, water, waterwheels and plants in Hadhramaut, and that the fruit and nabq of each mortgaged land shall be included in the sum of mortgage due to him. All good that is in their fruit they will never be questioned for and Allah and His Messenger are free from it. The jamaca of Muslims must defend the people of zi Murhab and their land must never be violated together with their property, lives and zafer the orchard of the king, which used to flow to the people of Qays and Allah is the Protector. Executed by Mu’awiya.”
Caliph ‘Umar ibn Abd ‘Aziz also wrote to his worker in Basra ‘Udai Ibn Arta’a saying: "If you find that a dhimmi becomes old, weak and poor, give him [some alms] from the Muslims’ Treasury House."
Nevertheless if a dhimmi who can afford to pay jizya refrains from payment, he will be punished without violating his covenant. Al-Qurtubi says:
“It is permissible to punish them if they refrain from payment while such being affordable. However the one proving to be incapable of payment may not be punished because the one who is incapable to pay is exempted and the rich are not bound to pay the jizya for the poor.”
The Jizya tax guarantees the Christians and Jews complete protection under the Islamic state. If an enemy country attacks the Islamic country, the Islamic country has a duty to defend the Christians and Jews and the Christians and Jews are not even obliged to fight!
Muslims also have to pay a yearly tax called Zakat. Zakat is even binding on property, and jewellery. Zakat should also be paid in the form of food as well. The Jizya is not binding on the property of the Christians and Jews.
Zakah is one of the 5 pillars of Islam and it is compulsory on everyone. It is compulsory even on the non-Muslim, this is called Jizya. Jizya does not degrade the non-Muslim people, it actually brings equality. Since the Muslims are obliged to pay Zakah, then why cant non-Muslims pay Jizya? That brings equality between the two.
Malik said, “The sunna is that there is no jizya due from women or children of people of the Book, and that jizya is only taken from men who have reached puberty. The people of dhimma and the magians do not have to pay any zakat on their palms or their vines or their crops or their livestock. This is because zakat is imposed on the muslims to purify them and to be given back to their poor, whereas jizya is imposed on the people of the Book to humble them. As long as they are in the country they have agreed to live in, they do not have to pay anything on their property except the jizya. If, however, they trade in muslim countries, coming and going in them, a tenth is taken from what they invest in such trade. This is because jizya is only imposed on them on conditions, which they have agreed on, namely that they will remain in their own countries, and that war will be waged for them on any enemy of theirs, and that if they then leave that land to go anywhere else to do business they will haveto pay a tenth. Whoever among them does business with the people of Egypt, and then goes to Syria, and then does business with the people of Syria and then goes to Iraq and does business with them and then goes on to Madina, or Yemen, or other similar places, has to pay a tenth.
People of the Book and magians do not have to pay any zakat on any of their property, livestock, produce or crops. The sunna still continues like that. They remain in the deen they were in, and they continue to do what they used to do. If in any one year they frequently come and go in muslim countries then they have to pay a tenth every time they do so, since that is outside what they have agreed upon, and not one of the conditions stipulated for them. This is what I have seen the people of knowledge of our city doing.”
The Prophet(P) also says warning against being unjust to the People of Dhimma or impairing their rights: “The one who wrongs a covenanter or impairs his right or overworks him or forcibly takes something from him, I will be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgment”[10]. He also says: “The one who kills a covenanter will never smell the scent of heaven and its scent is found at the distance of forty years.”[11]
Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, wrote a letter of dhimma and covenant to the Christian people of Najraan which is conveyed to us by Ibn Sa’ad in his Tabaqaat:
“The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, wrote to the bishop of the sons of Al-Harith Ibn Ka’b and the bishops, clergymen, adherents and priests of Najraan, telling them that they are entitled to whatever property in their possession notwithstanding its being large or small including their synagogues, prayers, priests as well as the protection of Allah and His Messenger, no bishop may be removed from his bishopric, no priest will be denied his priesthood and no clergyman will be denied his ministry. Nothing of their rights may be breached or abolished and neither their authority nor any of their status-quo will be violated so long as they give sincere advice and put their conditions to order without being unjust or being wronged. This was executed by Al-Mughira.”
from the covenant of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, to Rabica Al-Hadrami, where he says:
“The Messenger of Allah wrote to Rabica Ibn Zi Marhab Al-Hadrami, his brothers and uncles that they are entitled to their property, palm trees, slaves, wells, trees, water, waterwheels and plants in Hadhramaut, and that the fruit and nabq of each mortgaged land shall be included in the sum of mortgage due to him. All good that is in their fruit they will never be questioned for and Allah and His Messenger are free from it. The jamaca of Muslims must defend the people of zi Murhab and their land must never be violated together with their property, lives and zafer the orchard of the king, which used to flow to the people of Qays and Allah is the Protector. Executed by Mu’awiya.”
Caliph ‘Umar ibn Abd ‘Aziz also wrote to his worker in Basra ‘Udai Ibn Arta’a saying: "If you find that a dhimmi becomes old, weak and poor, give him [some alms] from the Muslims’ Treasury House."
Nevertheless if a dhimmi who can afford to pay jizya refrains from payment, he will be punished without violating his covenant. Al-Qurtubi says:
“It is permissible to punish them if they refrain from payment while such being affordable. However the one proving to be incapable of payment may not be punished because the one who is incapable to pay is exempted and the rich are not bound to pay the jizya for the poor.”
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jakasaki
Guest
readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996016410&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE
“Minorities - that is, non-Muslims - enjoy rights and protections at the pleasure of the Muslim community that are ever-subject to the capriciousness of a rights-canceling fatwa.”
That is a gross factual error. Rights accorded to non-Muslims are not devised by a clerical council, or an imam.** They are deeply-enshrined in the Qur’an. Since the Qur’an is the principle source of Shari`ah Law, no human mandate can alter, manipulate, or reinterpret what it states. No fatwa can cancel any God-given rights. **
**As for non-Muslims, the Qur’an clearly states what means: **
{Those who believe [in the Qur’an], and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.} (Al-Baqarah 2: 62)
Also we need to notice that Prophet Moses is mentioned more than any other prophet in the Qur’an, even more so than Prophet Muhammad.
The Qur’an also says what means:
{And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, and that which has been revealed to you and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God: They will not sell the Revelations of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account.} (Aal-
Non-Muslims are called dhimmis and were required to pay a levy or jizya. The jizya was not paid as a bribe for practicing their faith, but rather as compensation for not serving in the army, protection for Crusading armies and tribal warfare.
While most so-called journalists scream that the jizya is a tool of inequality, they fail to see that there is a tax levied on Muslims as well, the zakat, which non-Muslims are not required to pay.
Critics of Shari
In Egypt, matters of women’s rights, inheritance, marriage and divorce are all relegated through the thousand-year-old Al-Azhar University. A few years ago, Egypt passed the Personal Status Law, which gave women the right to divorce men - under certain conditions - and fell well within the jurisdiction of Shari`ah Law.
readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996016410&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE
“Minorities - that is, non-Muslims - enjoy rights and protections at the pleasure of the Muslim community that are ever-subject to the capriciousness of a rights-canceling fatwa.”
That is a gross factual error. Rights accorded to non-Muslims are not devised by a clerical council, or an imam.** They are deeply-enshrined in the Qur’an. Since the Qur’an is the principle source of Shari`ah Law, no human mandate can alter, manipulate, or reinterpret what it states. No fatwa can cancel any God-given rights. **
**As for non-Muslims, the Qur’an clearly states what means: **
{Those who believe [in the Qur’an], and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.} (Al-Baqarah 2: 62)
Also we need to notice that Prophet Moses is mentioned more than any other prophet in the Qur’an, even more so than Prophet Muhammad.
The Qur’an also says what means:
{And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, and that which has been revealed to you and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God: They will not sell the Revelations of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account.} (Aal-
Imran 3:199)Non-Muslims are called dhimmis and were required to pay a levy or jizya. The jizya was not paid as a bribe for practicing their faith, but rather as compensation for not serving in the army, protection for Crusading armies and tribal warfare.
While most so-called journalists scream that the jizya is a tool of inequality, they fail to see that there is a tax levied on Muslims as well, the zakat, which non-Muslims are not required to pay.
Critics of Shari
ah Law and basing codes of law on Islamic principles need look no further than Egypt for the perfect example of how some aspects of Shariah Law are applied in modern times.In Egypt, matters of women’s rights, inheritance, marriage and divorce are all relegated through the thousand-year-old Al-Azhar University. A few years ago, Egypt passed the Personal Status Law, which gave women the right to divorce men - under certain conditions - and fell well within the jurisdiction of Shari`ah Law.
readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996016410&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE
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Jay53
Guest
I found some interesting quotes to add to the discussion:
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jakasaki
Guest
Hi Tomarin - I found this of interest and passing it on… It’s too long for copy/paste.
**Egypt **- International Religious Freedom Report - Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
The Constitution provides for freedom of belief and the practice of religious rites; however, the Government places restrictions on this right.
Under the Constitution, Islam is the official state religion and the primary source of legislation. Accordingly religious practices that conflict with Islamic law (Shari’a) are prohibited.
However, in Egypt the practice of Christianity or Judaism does not conflict with Shari’a and, for the most part, members of the non-Muslim minority worship without harassment and maintain links with coreligionists in other countries.
Read the rest here…
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13994.htm
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tomarin
Guest
Thanks. I took a look at the Constitution of Egypt and found that while “legislation is derived from Islamic jurisprudence” there’s a lot there that is obviously derived from our Constitution.
My point is that Egypt is a modern nation which in theory at least has adopted the institutions and practices of a secular state. There are people in Egypt that want it to be more explicitly Islamic (and perhaps to adopt the Qur’an as their constitution) and who dislike the modernists who run the country – if these people take over then Egypt will become an Islamic state, but at the moment it isn’t.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Is this a copy and paste? It seems I read this on another website this morning.
So it’s for the non-muslims protection, but according to the Koran, it’s to represent their submission and being subdued under Islamic rule. The article seems to try and put a positive spin on things, in my opinion.
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tomarin
Guest
It was a system of second-class status for fellow monotheists in the pre-modern Islamic era. This may be seen as appalling by today’s standards but to be fair it was better than how non-Christians or heretical Christians were treated in Europe’s pre-modernity, in which they had no status whatsoever. Consequently relations between the religions were generally more harmonious and less violent in Islam than in the corresponding period in Europe.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
As you mention today’s standard, are non-Christians or heretical Christians still treated the same as they were? The practices being discussed are in effect TODAY, in Islamic states.
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tomarin
Guest
Are they? I’m not so sure about that. I thought it was a practice that had fallen out of fashion. But I could be wrong.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I’ve said it several times in this thread, I was told that was still in affect today by two Catholic priests serving in Egypt. Also, I’d like to note that no muslim on this forum has denied it. They have, however, tried to put a positive spin on it as being “protection” money.
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elwill
Guest
we didn’t respond because there is no evedince or facts , you even didn’t mentioned what they told you exactly
edit
beisde , i think that tomarin point out the fact that Egypt is a modern nation which in theory at least has adopted the institutions and practices of a secular state.
well , he is right in that
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Muslim_Woman
Guest
** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **
http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif
Citizenship & Dhimmah: Understanding the Concepts
Dr. Jamal Badawi,
Famous Da’iyah and Member of the European Council for Fatwa and Research
khaled assaf - Canada
Profession teacher
Does the concept of dhimmah apply to Muslim minorities living in Western countries? Do they have to pay tribute to the states they live in?
Answer
I recall hearing the mufti of Bosnia saying that if Muslim minority in Europe are treated in the same way that Islam treats non-Muslim minorities they will be in a much better situation than their situation today.
I agree with him because the non-Muslim minority in Shari’ah are allowed to follow their religious personal law (for example marriage, divorce, custody, inheritance, etc.) even if it is not consistent with the law applicable to the majority which is composed of Muslim communities.
Furthermore, under normative Shari’ah rules, their specific religious needs are fully accommodated. What Muslims citizens pay today is not “tribute” since they were not conquered in the lands where they lived; they only pay taxes like all other fellow citizens in return for the benefits they enjoy and the services they has access to.
islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=fiKTq9
http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif
Citizenship & Dhimmah: Understanding the Concepts
Dr. Jamal Badawi,
Famous Da’iyah and Member of the European Council for Fatwa and Research
khaled assaf - Canada
Profession teacher
Does the concept of dhimmah apply to Muslim minorities living in Western countries? Do they have to pay tribute to the states they live in?
Answer
I recall hearing the mufti of Bosnia saying that if Muslim minority in Europe are treated in the same way that Islam treats non-Muslim minorities they will be in a much better situation than their situation today.
I agree with him because the non-Muslim minority in Shari’ah are allowed to follow their religious personal law (for example marriage, divorce, custody, inheritance, etc.) even if it is not consistent with the law applicable to the majority which is composed of Muslim communities.
Furthermore, under normative Shari’ah rules, their specific religious needs are fully accommodated. What Muslims citizens pay today is not “tribute” since they were not conquered in the lands where they lived; they only pay taxes like all other fellow citizens in return for the benefits they enjoy and the services they has access to.
islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=fiKTq9
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dolphinlove
Guest
Ive just gotten back from egypt not long ago, and found the Christians to be unfairly treated.
- If a muslim converts to Christianity, they wont be recognized by the state. Because the government does not recognize muslims converting to Christianity.
- It can take up to 10 years, thats right TEN years to apply to have a church built, and even after all that time, its rarely granted. A mosque only takes 3 months to be approved.
- Christian families have had daughters kidnapped and forced to convert to islam, are forced into marriage. When the Christian parents report it, there is hardly anything done, merely because they ARE Christians.
4)Individuals who convert from islam to Christianity face discrimination and violence from their family, muslim neighbors, or the state police. Furthermore, a muslim wife is required to divorce an apostate husband; converts from islam lose all inheritance rights; they also lose custody of their children and they are unable to change their religious affiliation on state identity cards. No similar legal consequences befall converts from Christianity to islam.
- Status