Christians practicing Jewish traditions

[Crumpy]

One of the apologists answered a question largely in the negative, about whether Christians may practice any Jewish traditions (see here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=549042).

I totally agree that no religious symbols, especially of Judaism, should be treated lightly or used with disrespect. There is certainly no place for that.

My niece bought me an electric menorrah on a trip to a large city. I recall having asked her for it. Well, I included it in my nativity creche setup, and took a photo of it. She then showed it to a working colleague who is Jewish, who was very offended by it and thought it was blasphemous.

So, this can cause a problem, no matter how well-intentioned anybody might be. Recall the outrage over the artist who took a picture of a crucifix in a container of his own urine. It seemed to be an artistic variation of the crucifixion, until I realized what it was. Then it was disgusting to me.

There was a pastor of my parish in Illinois who used to have a demonstration Passover seder. I never saw it, but I’m sure he did it full tilt.

There’s also one of the televangelists on TCT cable TV – maybe Perry Stone – who has programs devoted to exactly showing such things and discussing their spiritual significance – significance to Christians.

 

[DoctorAngelicus]

It is a mortal sin to practice the rituals of the Old Covenant which have been abolished. The temple was struck down by God. The New Eternal Covenant has fulfilled the Old, the Old is annulled, replaced. We do not need Jewish traditions, for we have that perfect fulfillment which is found in Catholicism. We do not need these ridiculous “Christianized” seder meals, for we have the fulfilled Passover meal, which is the Mass, the paschal sacrifice. Jewish ritual is now forbidden by God under the 1st Commandment in the New Covenant.

 

[slavador]

Further to the idea that Christ replaced the Jewish covenants that had been so badly abused by the folks he made them with. Perhaps Jewish prayer shawls, Menorahs, stars of David and all reminders of past ages should be kept in circulation and used openly and publicly for non-religious purposes. Any power that Jewish objects once possessed has been permanently ended by the God who originated them. This took place about 70AD with God’s willfull destruction of His temple. Having replicas of these items in our midst purposely not respected can be helpful to guide the faithfull when listening to folks claiming leadership. Clearly anyone using such objects as though they matter can be safely ignored as they are lost in a world that God long ago swept into the dustbin of history.
Dispensationalist theories have long infected some of our protestant friends’ denominations. All these are associated with grave heresy and any methods to keep them from contaminating the Catholic faithful would be a blessing.

 

[meltzerboy]

One of the apologists answered a question largely in the negative, about whether Christians may practice any Jewish traditions (see here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=549042).

I totally agree that no religious symbols, especially of Judaism, should be treated lightly or used with disrespect. There is certainly no place for that.

My niece bought me an electric menorrah on a trip to a large city. I recall having asked her for it. Well, I included it in my nativity creche setup, and took a photo of it. She then showed it to a working colleague who is Jewish, who was very offended by it and thought it was blasphemous.

So, this can cause a problem, no matter how well-intentioned anybody might be. Recall the outrage over the artist who took a picture of a crucifix in a container of his own urine. It seemed to be an artistic variation of the crucifixion, until I realized what it was. Then it was disgusting to me.

There was a pastor of my parish in Illinois who used to have a demonstration Passover seder. I never saw it, but I’m sure he did it full tilt.

There’s also one of the televangelists on TCT cable TV – maybe Perry Stone – who has programs devoted to exactly showing such things and discussing their spiritual significance – significance to Christians.

My understanding is that your question is more in the direction of asking whether Jews would be offended by Christians’ practicing their rituals than whether Christians (who believe these practices have been superseded by the New Covenant) would be offended. Yes, many Orthodox Jews might be offended since, by Jewish Law, non-Jews are not supposed to practice various Jewish rituals, just as non-Catholics are not supposed to participate in the Sacraments of the Church. Personally and as a Reform Jew, I would consider it an honor for a Christian to light the Menorah during Hanukkah or celebrate the Passover Seder. In fact, the Seder welcomes guests to participate since it is a celebration of freedom for all peoples. Whether or not Christians themselves should make their own Seder is more controversial (for both Jews and Christians); but again, as for myself, I do not see it as offensive even if the rituals are not performed to the letter (not all Jews observe the Seder to the letter either). In my view, it’s the spirit that counts. I can see, however, that placing a Menorah in a Nativity creche might have caused a bit of a ruckus. As an aside, electric Menorahs are NOT kosher since the miracle of Hanukkah involves the burning of oil that was supposed to last for only one day but instead lasted for eight. The symbolism is all but lost by using an electric Menorah. With regard to practicing Jewish rituals that are considered obsolete by some Catholics, what do they think of Pope John Paul II’s attendance at the Wailing Wall (the most sacred Jewish site) and placing a note in it?

 

[kelleyclip]

It is a mortal sin to practice the rituals of the Old Covenant which have been abolished. The temple was struck down by God. The New Eternal Covenant has fulfilled the Old, the Old is annulled, replaced. We do not need Jewish traditions, for we have that perfect fulfillment which is found in Catholicism. We do not need these ridiculous “Christianized” seder meals, for we have the fulfilled Passover meal, which is the Mass, the paschal sacrifice. Jewish ritual is now forbidden by God under the 1st Commandment in the New Covenant.

Jesus/Yeshua came to fulfill the Law, not abolish the Law.

 

[kelleyclip]

My understanding is that your question is more in the direction of asking whether Jews would be offended by Christians’ practicing their rituals than whether Christians (who believe these practices have been superseded by the New Covenant) would be offended. Yes, many Orthodox Jews might be offended since, by Jewish Law, non-Jews are not supposed to practice various Jewish rituals, just as non-Catholics are not supposed to participate in the Sacraments of the Church. Personally and as a Reform Jew, I would consider it an honor for a Christian to light the Menorah during Hanukkah or celebrate the Passover Seder. In fact, the Seder welcomes guests to participate since it is a celebration of freedom for all peoples. Whether or not Christians themselves should make their own Seder is more controversial (for both Jews and Christians); but again, as for myself, I do not see it as offensive even if the rituals are not performed to the letter (not all Jews observe the Seder to the letter either). In my view, it’s the spirit that counts. I can see, however, that placing a Menorah in a Nativity creche might have caused a bit of a ruckus. As an aside, electric Menorahs are NOT kosher since the miracle of Hanukkah involves the burning of oil that was supposed to last for only one day but instead lasted for eight. The symbolism is all but lost by using an electric Menorah. With regard to practicing Jewish rituals that are considered obsolete by some Catholics, what do they think of Pope John Paul II’s attendance at the Wailing Wall (the most sacred Jewish site) and placing a note in it?

I completely agree with you. It says specifically in the New Testiment if you are of Jewish origins, and become Catholic/Christian, it is right to keep Jewish tradition (kosher diet etc.) If it were forbidden to light the Menorah and celebrate Chanukah, why is it that the only referance to Chanukah throughout the Bible, is in the New Testiment? Chanukah is mostly described in the Talmud, right? There is nothing wrong with incorporating Jewish tradition into Christianity. The Apostals were the first Messianic Jews who later formed the Catholic church. The very root of Catholicism is Messianic Judaism. You’re right, Christians that honor Jewish tradition do this out of respect for God, Jesus/Yeshua, Holy Spirit and His chosen children of Zion- the Jews

I have Catholic Chanukah with my family every year. If the above people want to judge me for that, fine. I’m sorry they don’t understand that Jesus/Yeshua is still Jewish.

To our Heavenly Father, l’chaim

 

[valentino]

Crumpylease explain:why Menorah in crept considered Blasphemous?An artist’s variation of the crucifix?I agree its a variation,but so what?Was he trying to say that the crucifix holds no meaning to people?HE put it in urine.Catholics venerate the cross.The cross brings to minds God’s love for man and His sorrowful passion.Will He paint the Holy Eucharist in pool of feces next?This is outragous and insulting to God.HE is giving an impression that the sacrifice of Jesus’s was nothing.BTW did he sell any of these?Was he ostrasized by anyone?

 

[slavador]

Meltzerboy - I’ll bite here:

"With regard to practicing Jewish rituals that are considered obsolete by some Catholics, what do they think of Pope John Paul II’s attendance at the Wailing Wall (the most sacred Jewish site) and placing a note in it? "

As leader of God’s Church, the Pope can choose to visit this and any other sight at his pleasure. To assume that the descendants of those that split off from the Church by not accepting the messiah have any mystical claim to this or any other archeological sight is misguided. To respect the customs of dangerous tribes when in territory they occupy is necessary if the Pope is to avoid getting shot at too much!

 

[archangel04]

I would like to hear what Br. JR would say about this, he is after all a convert from Judaism I believe? Calling Br. JR!! lol

 

[laszlo]

Jesus/Yeshua came to fulfill the Law, not abolish the Law.

The Judaic Law is not part of the salvation. Judaizers in the time of the early Christianity tried to declare it (circumcision, eating restrictions) part of the Christianity, they were harshly rejected.

As the actions of a child does not serve the adult, neither is the Law part of the Christian life. It is obsoleted, excep for the extreme minority (the Law abiding Jews) who before the end of the world will acknowledge that the historical Jesus, whom they rejected, is the Messias.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

When we talk of certain Jewish practices, where do we draw the line?

We accept Jewish Saints and have their icons. We pray the Jewish Psalter and our liturgies are replete with prayers from the OT or even indirectly based on the Jewish perspectives of the writers of the NT.

Then there was the Jewish Church at Jerusalem with its own Jewish rites.

The Ethiopian and Assyrian Churches have a lot of Judaism in their rites. In the Assyrian Church, the priest is addressed as “Rabbi.” In the Ethiopian tradition, Saturday is honoured on the same level as Sunday, shoes are removed in Church, liturgical dancing is done, reminiscent of David’s dancing before the ark of the covenant, circumcision is practiced along with baptism.

Christ Himself fulfilled the law and the prophets. The OT saints representing both are honoured in our Churches.

When we study Judaism, we are studying our own history and the reason why the Messiah came. We are truly spiritual semites.

The Russian New Martyr Fr. Alexander Men, a Jewish convert, had a Menorah in his icon corner and other aspects of his Jewish tradition. The Eastern Churches have the Menorah in fact on their altars, the seven-sticked candelabra. It is a true Menorah taken from the OT traditions. Many Orthodox wear bronze neck crosses and there are bronze hand and processional crosses. The reason for the use of the bronze is the bronze serpent Moses raised in the desert. There are bronze Russian icons with images of serpents and some Orthodox actually wear a little bronze serpet with their neck cross "Just as Moses raised the serpent in the desert, so too the Son of Man must be raised . . "

Other traditions, such as my own Ukrainian one, adopted much from its own pre-Christian past. We wouldn’t think of discarding those traditions either!

Alex

 

[Denise1957]

My understanding is that your question is more in the direction of asking whether Jews would be offended by Christians’ practicing their rituals than whether Christians (who believe these practices have been superseded by the New Covenant) would be offended. Yes, many Orthodox Jews might be offended since, by Jewish Law, non-Jews are not supposed to practice various Jewish rituals, just as non-Catholics are not supposed to participate in the Sacraments of the Church. Personally and as a Reform Jew, I would consider it an honor for a Christian to light the Menorah during Hanukkah or celebrate the Passover Seder. In fact, the Seder welcomes guests to participate since it is a celebration of freedom for all peoples. Whether or not Christians themselves should make their own Seder is more controversial (for both Jews and Christians); but again, as for myself, I do not see it as offensive even if the rituals are not performed to the letter (not all Jews observe the Seder to the letter either). In my view, it’s the spirit that counts. I can see, however, that placing a Menorah in a Nativity creche might have caused a bit of a ruckus. As an aside, electric Menorahs are NOT kosher since the miracle of Hanukkah involves the burning of oil that was supposed to last for only one day but instead lasted for eight. The symbolism is all but lost by using an electric Menorah. With regard to practicing Jewish rituals that are considered obsolete by some Catholics, what do they think of Pope John Paul II’s attendance at the Wailing Wall (the most sacred Jewish site) and placing a note in it?

Regarding Pope John Paul’s attendance at the Wailing Wall and placing a note in it, I think that it was a very nice gesture on his part. The Pope truly loved all people, even and especially non-Catholics. Christ said that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, but he didn’t say that we are to love only those who believe as we do (Christ’s story of the Good Samaritan comes to mind).

I didn’t know about the electric candle as not being kosher; that’s interesting. I think it’s interesting, too, that as a carry-over from the Jewish tradition, there are six candles on the altar at a Catholic High Mass. Christ Himself is considered to be the seventh candle. There are other carry-overs in the Mass, too, from Jewish tradition.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

The Judaic Law is not part of the salvation. Judaizers in the time of the early Christianity tried to declare it (circumcision, eating restrictions) part of the Christianity, they were harshly rejected.

As the actions of a child does not serve the adult, neither is the Law part of the Christian life. It is obsoleted, excep for the extreme minority (the Law abiding Jews) who before the end of the world will acknowledge that the historical Jesus, whom they rejected, is the Messias.

Thee were many Jews in the time of Jesus who accepted Him. When the NT refers to the Jews who rejected Him, it is referring to “Jewish leaders” only and those who followed them. Today, one cannot reject something they do not recognize.

Alex

 

[laszlo]

When we talk of certain Jewish practices, where do we draw the line?
/QUOTE]

Was the Judais the proper way toward the salvation: Yes

Is the Judaism the way toward the salvation for us: No. The Jews did not recognized their time and thus lost their role as leaders toward the salvation of the world.

 

[kelleyclip]

Meltzerboy - I’ll bite here:
As leader of God’s Church, the Pope can choose to visit this and any other sight at his pleasure. To assume that the descendants of those that split off from the Church by not accepting the messiah have any mystical claim to this or any other archeological sight is misguided. To respect the customs of dangerous tribes when in territory they occupy is necessary if the Pope is to avoid getting shot at too much!

I can’t even begin to describe how insulting this comment is…

The Judaic Law is not part of the salvation. Judaizers in the time of the early Christianity tried to declare it (circumcision, eating restrictions) part of the Christianity, they were harshly rejected.

As the actions of a child does not serve the adult, neither is the Law part of the Christian life. It is obsoleted, excep for the extreme minority (the Law abiding Jews) who before the end of the world will acknowledge that the historical Jesus, whom they rejected, is the Messias.

In Messianic Judaism (Biblical Christianity), a kosher diet is not required. Circumcision is a sign for those that believe in God that uphold the Covenant. As I said, Jesus didn’t come to abolish anything. The Old Covenant is not void, but the New Covenant compliments the old. It is very likly that when Jesus returns, there may be another Covenant and another Testiment - the Final Testiment. Would another Testiment abolish the New Testiment? No, an addition would not abolish the previous books. Believing in Jesus the Messiah is the fulfillment of the Law; meaning, one could argue that Christian’s are bound even tighter to the Law.

At the end of the day, it’s up to interpretation. Will a kosher diet bring you salvation? No. But how cool would it be to believe in Jesus the Messiah and uphold the traditions of our Jewish roots, together. They compliment eachother, just as the Old Testiment compliments the New Testiment as one book - The Holy Bible. It would be wrong to separate the Bible, because it is a whole.

When we talk of certain Jewish practices, where do we draw the line?

We accept Jewish Saints and have their icons. We pray the Jewish Psalter and our liturgies are replete with prayers from the OT or even indirectly based on the Jewish perspectives of the writers of the NT.

Then there was the Jewish Church at Jerusalem with its own Jewish rites.

The Ethiopian and Assyrian Churches have a lot of Judaism in their rites. In the Assyrian Church, the priest is addressed as “Rabbi.” In the Ethiopian tradition, Saturday is honoured on the same level as Sunday, shoes are removed in Church, liturgical dancing is done, reminiscent of David’s dancing before the ark of the covenant, circumcision is practiced along with baptism.

Christ Himself fulfilled the law and the prophets. The OT saints representing both are honoured in our Churches.

When we study Judaism, we are studying our own history and the reason why the Messiah came. We are truly spiritual semites.

The Russian New Martyr Fr. Alexander Men, a Jewish convert, had a Menorah in his icon corner and other aspects of his Jewish tradition. The Eastern Churches have the Menorah in fact on their altars, the seven-sticked candelabra. It is a true Menorah taken from the OT traditions. Many Orthodox wear bronze neck crosses and there are bronze hand and processional crosses. The reason for the use of the bronze is the bronze serpent Moses raised in the desert. There are bronze Russian icons with images of serpents and some Orthodox actually wear a little bronze serpet with their neck cross "Just as Moses raised the serpent in the desert, so too the Son of Man must be raised . . "

Other traditions, such as my own Ukrainian one, adopted much from its own pre-Christian past. We wouldn’t think of discarding those traditions either!

Alex

You are awesome! It’s true, Catholic traditions come from Jewish traditions. When the priest blesses the alter with the incence, it reminds me of how the Rabbi’s would bless the alter and the Holy of Holies in the Temple with incence. It’s all connected. And yes, the Old Testiment’s prophesies prove that Jesus is the Messiah. To ignore the Old Testiment/Torah is to ignore our proof of the Messiah. It’s up to the individual whether or not you want to celebrate Chanukah or keep a kosher diet. If the individual believes in Jesus the Messiah, asks for forgiveness of sins, trys to live a better life and at least honors and respects our Jewish roots, that is perfectly fine.

To be honest, I’ve been relitively kosher for years now and I feel healthier than ever. By relitively, I sometimes have shellfish. Otherwise, no pork, no organs and no blood… eww! I can’t believe some people eat blood sausage, but it’s your choice.

 

[kelleyclip]

Regarding Pope John Paul’s attendance at the Wailing Wall and placing a note in it, I think that it was a very nice gesture on his part. The Pope truly loved all people, even and especially non-Catholics. Christ said that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, but he didn’t say that we are to love only those who believe as we do (Christ’s story of the Good Samaritan comes to mind).

I didn’t know about the electric candle as not being kosher; that’s interesting. I think it’s interesting, too, that as a carry-over from the Jewish tradition, there are six candles on the altar at a Catholic High Mass. Christ Himself is considered to be the seventh candle. There are other carry-overs in the Mass, too, from Jewish tradition.

I pray for the day I can say the Rosary at the Western Wall (Wailing Wall). Because the miracle of Chanukah was dependant on the natural oils lasting through those dark days, an electric menorah is not considered kosher. Though, if its a large menorah for public display (outdoors) an electric menorah is just fine. But if you are celebrating Chanukah in your home, it should use candles or oil.

The original menorah had 7 pipes. The miricle of Chanukah is so important because the oils kept burning for 8 days. Which is why there are now 9 pipes. To me, Chanukah can be applied to Jesus. Jesus is the light of the world, and Chanukah is the fesival of light. Jesus is our beacon of hope in this dark world, we must live in His light.

Thee were many Jews in the time of Jesus who accepted Him. When the NT refers to the Jews who rejected Him, it is referring to “Jewish leaders” only and those who followed them. Today, one cannot reject something they do not recognize.

Alex

If you look at the original text in Hebrew, there is a distict difference most people are unaware of. When it refers to the Jews that rejected him, the Hebrew word is actually translated into Judeans from Judea. It wasn’t refering to ALL Jews, only those of a more strict sect in the area of Judea which is near Sumaria. The not so stict Jews along western Israel, were open to Jesus being the Messiah and most of them accepted him.

 

[meltzerboy]

Meltzerboy - I’ll bite here:

As leader of God’s Church, the Pope can choose to visit this and any other sight at his pleasure. To assume that the descendants of those that split off from the Church by not accepting the messiah have any mystical claim to this or any other archeological sight is misguided. To respect the customs of dangerous tribes when in territory they occupy is necessary if the Pope is to avoid getting shot at too much!

You took quite a bite! Did you see the image of Pope John Paul praying at the Wailing Wall while following the Jewish tradition of inserting a note of prayer? The Chief Rabbi of Israel helped this blessed man walk to the Wall, and there seemed to be much love and mutual respect between them. A very touching scene, in my view, and a beautiful example of peace for the world. No wonder Pope John Paul was beatified: a most godly and saintly man!

 

[slavador]

The people of God became the Christians 2 thousand years ago. The decendants of the small group that rebelled against God and choose to practice the rites he has cancelled have seized the land of Palestine, have armed themselves to the teeth with nuclear weapons and are constantly threatening folks that do not follow their will. Because those that reject Christ might experience unpleasant feelings or might cause us to experience unpleasant feelings is hardly a sound rationale for letting them control the language and agenda of Catholic forums!

 

[Cristiano]

Meltzerboy - I’ll bite here:

As leader of God’s Church, the Pope can choose to visit this and any other sight at his pleasure. To assume that the descendants of those that split off from the Church by not accepting the messiah have any mystical claim to this or any other archeological sight is misguided. To respect the customs of dangerous tribes when in territory they occupy is necessary if the Pope is to avoid getting shot at too much!

I think that you are quite confused about what Christianity is about, and so you are calling the previous Pope a coward.

 

[kelleyclip]

The people of God became the Christians 2 thousand years ago. The decendants of the small group that rebelled against God and choose to practice the rites he has cancelled have seized the land of Palestine, have armed themselves to the teeth with nuclear weapons and are constantly threatening folks that do not follow their will. Because those that reject Christ might experience unpleasant feelings or might cause us to experience unpleasant feelings is hardly a sound rationale for letting them control the language and agenda of Catholic forums!

Dude, that is wrong. God’s chosen people are BOTH Jews and Christians. We are one family, we both await the coming of the Messiah. And it’s called Israel, not palestine.