Christians practicing Jewish traditions

[slavador]

You took quite a bite! Did you see the image of Pope John Paul praying at the Wailing Wall while following the Jewish tradition of inserting a note of prayer? The Chief Rabbi of Israel helped this blessed man walk to the Wall, and there seemed to be much love and mutual respect between them. A very touching scene, in my view, and a beautiful example of peace for the world. No wonder Pope John Paul was beatified: a most godly and saintly man!

Meltzerboy:
Surely as Jewish you see the problem of trying to combine totally different ideas of the world as if they are one. Is placing paper into the old wall a formal Jewish rite or is it more of a private sort of devotion?

 

[meltzerboy]

The people of God became the Christians 2 thousand years ago. The decendants of the small group that rebelled against God and choose to practice the rites he has cancelled have seized the land of Palestine, have armed themselves to the teeth with nuclear weapons and are constantly threatening folks that do not follow their will. Because those that reject Christ might experience unpleasant feelings or might cause us to experience unpleasant feelings is hardly a sound rationale for letting them control the language and agenda of Catholic forums!

How many Jews are there on CAF? Besides myself, I know two others. Do you believe three people are controlling the language and agenda of Catholic Forums?

 

[slavador]

I think that you are quite confused about what Christianity is about, and so you are calling the previous Pope a coward.

The Pope did what was necessary to get the job done. He was both a holy Iand practical man.
Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection and this event’s replacement of God’s old covenents is what Chritianity is about.
The founding and expansion of God’s Church in the wake of this event through the power of the Holy Spirit to replace in a practical way all belief systems that came before is what Christianity is about.
The salvation of all mens souls through the workings of the sacraments is what Christianity is about.

Reverting to pre-Christian rituals and beliefs is NOT what Christianity is about.

 

[slavador]

How many Jews are there on CAF? Besides myself, I know two others. Do you believe three people are controlling the language and agenda of Catholic Forums?

Of course not. I was not referring to you. You did not bring up the idea of Catholics hijacking Jewish prayer shawls and menorahs and using them as part of our tradition. It was Catholics themselves!

 

[archangel04]

Dude, that is wrong. God’s chosen people are BOTH Jews and Christians. We are one family, we both await the coming of the Messiah. And it’s called Israel, not palestine.

What about the Muslums? It’s called Israel from the 1940s to today, but before it was Palestine.

 

[slavador]

When we talk of certain Jewish practices, where do we draw the line?

Alex

Alex
How about drawing the line at practices origionating since the time of Christ. Perhaps anyone born before the death of Christ with a Jewish mother can be legitimately considered as amongst Gods “special” chosen. Perhaps todays Rabbis can be considered similar to Imams, Lama’s and first nation’s spirit men. Not legitimate members of the chain of command handed down by the Church from Jesus but still likely sources of insight gleaned from human experience that should be respected.

 

[laszlo]

Thee were many Jews in the time of Jesus who accepted Him. When the NT refers to the Jews who rejected Him, it is referring to “Jewish leaders” only and those who followed them. Today, one cannot reject something they do not recognize.

Alex

Those who accepted Him, became Christian. The Jews were selected as nation, the Law was given to a Nation. The reason for the chosen people was to be stewards of the Messias. The Nation, leaders an people following their leaders failed this vocation. There was no 100 men among the at least 30,000 in Jerusalem who would yell: Release Him, He is our King. They, the nation failed.

Naturally this was their responsibility, and they as state were exterminated for that in AD 70. God punished them and since that time the Jews are the same people in the eye of God like anyone else. God forgave them after the punishment, but they are not the chosen people any more. The Church is the chosen people,

James 2:[9] But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: [10] Who in time past were not a people: but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy; but now have obtained mercy.

 

[slavador]

The topic at hand is whether practices developed in the Messianic period amongst those that explicitly reject Jesus need to be given respect as if they are gifts from God. Hanukka has been developed by the old believer (pre christian) communities of the world from a minor feast to one that has been progressing in the last few centuries to rival Christmas. Having any Catholic involvement in modern Hannuka as an important celebration would be to miss the major purpose God has chosen for this historic event. On the feast of Jordan, candles of this form are thrust by Eastern Catholic and Orthodox priests into water as part of its transformation into holy water. This is perhaps the sole reason for the miracles in the 2nd century BC as recorded in Maccabees - to prepare the way for Christian holy water production by God’s Holy Orthodox Churches. To institute the celebration of Hannaka as a replacement for the feast of epiphany in a way that interferes with the focus on the birth of the savior is extremely sinister and having Catholic’s distracted by it in their schools and Churches reeks of infiltration.

 

[kelleyclip]

What about the Muslums? It’s called Israel from the 1940s to today, but before it was Palestine.

The word “Palestine” was invented by the Romans. There were territories known as Israel, Judea, Sumaria etc. before the Romans invaded. Only then, did the land become Palestine. In 1948, the U.N. created two states: Israel and Palestine. Most people are not aware that the two-state solution was created from the beginning. The neighboring muslims would not accept a Jewish state, and proceeded to attack civilians night and day. Israeli troops fought back against the agressors and ended up with more and more land. This history is quite interesting.

 

[slavador]

The word “Palestine” was invented by the Romans. There were territories known as Israel, Judea, Sumaria etc. before the Romans invaded. Only then, did the land become Palestine. In 1948, the U.N. created two states: Israel and Palestine. Most people are not aware that the two-state solution was created from the beginning. The neighboring muslims would not accept a Jewish state, and proceeded to attack civilians night and day. Israeli troops fought back against the agressors and ended up with more and more land. This history is quite interesting.

As I feared some in our midst deny that holy biblical Israel ceased to exist as an entity in 70 BC when the covenant was extended to all peoples and God destroyed his temple. To align with forces that take a theft of land using terrorists with stolen British and American weapons from ww2 in 1948 followed by ethnic cleansing that continues to this very day and try to relate it to the bible is really dangerous. Those constantly bombing and invading Arab countries in the ME are more like the savage enemies of the pre-christian chosen people than the chosen ones! Quoting the first 5 thousand years of the pre-Church history and the acts of heroic pre-Catholic saints from Moses to King David to the amazing Macabee boys as if their present day community was somehow involved is preposterous.

 

[laszlo]

The word “Palestine” was invented by the Romans.

No. The Romans did not invented the word. They only transcribed the name of the Philistines to Latin.

The Philistines, came from the see, and occupied part of the Land of Canaanites before the Israelites. Later they fought the Israelites. They remained faithful to their land up to our times without interruption. They are the oldest living inhabitants of the Holy Land.

 

[Misguidedyouth]

It is a mortal sin to practice the rituals of the Old Covenant which have been abolished. The temple was struck down by God. The New Eternal Covenant has fulfilled the Old, the Old is annulled, replaced. We do not need Jewish traditions, for we have that perfect fulfillment which is found in Catholicism. We do not need these ridiculous “Christianized” seder meals, for we have the fulfilled Passover meal, which is the Mass, the paschal sacrifice. Jewish ritual is now forbidden by God under the 1st Commandment in the New Covenant.

I feel like an idiot for having to ask but I will anyway because I don’t know You say the Old Covenant, is that the same as the Old Testament (Genesis, Dueteronomy)? If it is, then why are both put into the Bible? I don’t understand

 

[slavador]

I was taught that the New Covenant supercedes the old law and although the early Church (after the biblical times) allowed the last of the chosen people (those born before Christs death) permission to practice the rites of the old testament untill their deaths, anyone born in the messianic age is no longer part of a chosen race set aside as the chosen nation is now everybody. The last Jew in the history of the world likely died by 170 AD. Note that the descendants of the Jews have made some of the greatest contributions to the Holy Church of any of the races of men. The Catholic Church is itself the modern and updated nation of Israel!

 

[slavador]

I am carving out the replacement position in as clear a way as possible as a response to the popular dispensationalist theology eminating from certain well funded fundamentalist Christian groups. A close relative is very intimate with a christian based campaign raising one hundred million dollars to pre-position weapons in Israel for the coming Holy war that will lead to rebuilding the temple and then the return of Jesus at which point the Jews must convert or die! Up in Canada our newly re-elected prime minister gets much of his financial support from such communities as I believe GWB did.

Atheists and most Catholics see modern Israel as a normal modern country like Lebanon or Italy.

Many Jews see Israel as a part of the promises of the old testament with some deeper meaning - perhaps almost a new chapter of the old Testament unfolding.

Dispensationalist Christians see Israel as part of a drama with antichrists and dragons straight out of their private interpretations of revelations.

The well meaning folks bringing seders, prayer shawls and hannuka into our Catholic midst are often from the third group and I believe they are as much of a threat to Jews as they are to the rest of humanity.

I do not see my position that the Catholic Church is the organization that God chose to save mankind as being an unreasonable one for a Catholic…

 

[slavador]

That comment was a criticism of the second group (those that see Israel as a continuation of the OT)
Modern Israel is armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons. It hasn’t hesitated to bomb, occupy and loot territory in places like Lebanon in very recent memory. Any group whether they Christian, Jewish, Islamic or Communist that sees themselves compelled by God to wreak havoc on their neighbors can be legitimately considered dangerous. Conversion, loyalty and marriage laws recently passed in the knesset definately define the citizens of this nation in a tribal manner. What was the problem with my terms?

From my somewhat limited readings of the OT (recent great adventure study + a couple times through myself) it seems abundantly clear that God commanded his people to do all sorts of aweful things to wrest control of the land. I think that any armed modern group that takes the old testament as their personal playbook without the New Testament emphasis on providing forgiveness to enemies can be legitimately considered a dangerous tribe.

 

[Lev23]

One of the apologists answered a question largely in the negative, about whether Christians may practice any Jewish traditions (see here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=549042).

I totally agree that no religious symbols, especially of Judaism, should be treated lightly or used with disrespect. There is certainly no place for that.

My niece bought me an electric menorrah on a trip to a large city. I recall having asked her for it. Well, I included it in my nativity creche setup, and took a photo of it. She then showed it to a working colleague who is Jewish, who was very offended by it and thought it was blasphemous.

So, this can cause a problem, no matter how well-intentioned anybody might be. Recall the outrage over the artist who took a picture of a crucifix in a container of his own urine. It seemed to be an artistic variation of the crucifixion, until I realized what it was. Then it was disgusting to me.

There was a pastor of my parish in Illinois who used to have a demonstration Passover seder. I never saw it, but I’m sure he did it full tilt.

There’s also one of the televangelists on TCT cable TV – maybe Perry Stone – who has programs devoted to exactly showing such things and discussing their spiritual significance – significance to Christians.

I wouldn’t lose any sleep over offending Jews if you sincerely use Jewish symbols to celebrate or to show Jesus’ heritage. After all, when sincerely done, it is all done for the glory of Jesus Christ and to witness Him before the Jewish people.

 

[Lev23]

I was taught that the New Covenant supercedes the old law and although the early Church (after the biblical times) allowed the last of the chosen people (those born before Christs death) permission to practice the rites of the old testament untill their deaths, anyone born in the messianic age is no longer part of a chosen race set aside as the chosen nation is now everybody. The last Jew in the history of the world likely died by 170 AD. Note that the descendants of the Jews have made some of the greatest contributions to the Holy Church of any of the races of men. The Catholic Church is itself the modern and updated nation of Israel!

The last of the chosen people? Scripture doesn’t teach anything about the “last of the chosen people” or “the last Jew”. The New Covenant is inheretly Israeli, or “Jewish”. When it came to Israel and the New Covenant, according to the prophet Jeremiah, God did not “update” or “modernize” anything. Jeremiah said that God would-“put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts”, as well as "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more. As we all know, this was all done through the one and only Son of the God of Israel, Jesus Christ.

And to the glory of God, all peoples can come to Him by His Son. This truth was revealed by God to St.Peter, who was a Jew, and was confirmed by Jews(Acts 11:18).

From my somewhat limited readings of the OT (recent great adventure study + a couple times through myself)…

Pay close attention at what ethnic people are being addressed here-
**Jeremiah 31:31-37
“The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the LORD.
“This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

This is what the LORD says,

he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:
“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the LORD,
“will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me.”

This is what the LORD says:

“Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,”
declares the LORD.**

 

[FAB]

For those who are claiming they would not follow Jewish tradition , well then you might need to stop attending mass. It is based on a Jewish style of worship from the synagoge, after all the apostles were jewish and used what they knew best. The Eucharistic prayer is based on a meal of sacrafice that the Jews call passover.
The Catholic faith grew from the Jewish faith, it is the reason why modern points have visited Jewish places of worship in recognition of a shared heritage.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

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