Christians VS Pagans

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The Necronomicon is fiction. It is based totally upon the imagination of one Howard Philip Lovecraft who was a pulp fiction writer back in the 30s. As fiction, it is really good stuff and there have been other writers who have continued the genre to this present day. And there are people who, unfortunately, are so swept up by the story that they think it is true.

Wherein lies my problem with the New Age movement. I am perfectly capable of thinking outside linear history. And I’m not going to pick on Celtic traditions this time, I’m going to use Norse. Fine, you want to worship the Aesir. Are you willing to carve the 'blood eagle" in sacrifice to Odin? Is old “One Eye” going to be satisfied with a “kinder, gentler” worship? I think not. Far better that you follow the Bhavagad Gita if you want to be a pagan and are of European ancestry. We were all Indo-European once and young.
 
LOL!!! I’m intellectually lazy, well i don’t need to tell the world in almost every post i make that i have a ‘degree’? I didn’t ask for links to amazon.com, i want somewhere i can read the book, online as i will not be wasting time and money getting my hands on these books, which could be completly useless to me. If you think they will give me the information you suggest, i suggest you do some leg work.

Forget it, I will not waste anymore time with you.
I would like for you to read once more what you have written in the above quote.

Understand that your first sentence is composed first of sarcasm, and then of insult. Do you see the tone you have decided to speak with? Do you understand the flippancy of your perspective?

And now I would like for you to look once again at the URL you have typed in to your web-browser which has given you access to this particular forum. Do you understand that it is quite obviously Catholic in theological persuasion? Do you understand that you are a guest here? 🙂

But I wish to point such things out to you, certainly not for the purpose of hurting your self-perceptions. Quite on the contrary, I happen to find you to be a rather charming person. Within the boundary of my intentions, then, I want to use your quote as an illustration of a point which might offer a portion of the answer you sought, when you had begun this thread.

Be ever mindful of how you are speaking, and which words you are using, and what ideas you are communicating, before attempting to interpret the response of another person. I do not wish to degrade your intelligence by stating such an obvious truth of common sense. But perhaps part of the reason that you find Christians responding to your personality in a way which you might perhaps later term “hateful,” is quite simply the way in which you wear your mask of paganism before them.

I am going to make a generalisation in my next comment, and I am not sorry. People who are attracted to paganism are almost entirely individuals who are possessed of an utter and absolute poetic temperament. The “theology” of paganism is written using the melodies of the heart, not using the definitions of the intellect. It is mythological and intuitive; it is not historical and logical. For this very simple reason, you will continually find that many Christians find your perspective of reality to be utter nonsense. Whomever you speak to in todays society, you are largely interacting with individuals who belong to a culture which is so obsessed with simplicity of perception, that it has lost all sense of the beautiful and the profound, and that thus is shallow. I will further postulate to the Catholics who are reading this, that such a thing as shallowness is at the absolute heart of anti-Catholicism. No one with a poetic soul could find the Catholic Church to be anything less than breath-taking; and those who are shallow will find it to be repulsively suspect.

Is that a fair assessment? Oh, it is terribly crude in its composition, I will grant. But perhaps the two observations will offer a bit of help.
 
LOL!!! I’m intellectually lazy, well i don’t need to tell the world in almost every post i make that i have a ‘degree’? I didn’t ask for links to amazon.com, i want somewhere i can read the book, online as i will not be wasting time and money getting my hands on these books, which could be completly useless to me. If you think they will give me the information you suggest, i suggest you do some leg work.

Forget it, I will not waste anymore time with you.
I would like for you to read once more what you have written in the above quote.

Understand that your first sentence is composed first of sarcasm, and then of insult. Do you see the tone you have decided to speak with? Do you understand the flippancy of your perspective?

And now I would like for you to look once again at the URL you have typed in to your web-browser which has given you access to this particular forum. Do you understand that it is quite obviously Catholic in theological persuasion? Do you understand that you are a guest here? 🙂

But I wish to point such things out to you, certainly not for the purpose of hurting your self-perceptions. Quite on the contrary, I happen to find you to be a rather charming person. Within the boundary of my intentions, then, I want to use your quote as an illustration of a point which might offer a portion of the answer you sought, when you had begun this thread.

Be ever mindful of how you are speaking, and which words you are using, and what ideas you are communicating, before attempting to interpret the response of another person. I do not wish to degrade your intelligence by stating such an obvious truth of common sense. But perhaps part of the reason that you find Christians responding to your personality in a way which you might perhaps later term “hateful,” is quite simply the way in which you wear your mask of paganism before them.

I am going to make a generalisation in my next comment, and I am not sorry. People who are attracted to paganism are almost entirely individuals who are possessed of an utter and absolute poetic temperament. The “theology” of paganism is written using the melodies of the heart, not using the definitions of the intellect. It is mythological and intuitive; it is not historical and logical. For this very simple reason, you will continually find that many Christians find your perspective of reality to be utter nonsense. Whomever you speak to in todays society, you are largely interacting with individuals who belong to a culture which is so obsessed with simplicity of perception, that it has lost all sense of the beautiful and the profound, and that thus is shallow. I will further postulate to the Catholics who are reading this, that such a thing as shallowness is at the absolute heart of anti-Catholicism. No one with a poetic soul could find the Catholic Church to be anything less than breath-taking; and those who are shallow will find it to be repulsively suspect.

Is that a fair assessment? Oh, it is terribly crude in its composition, I will grant. But perhaps the two observations will offer a bit of help.
 
The problem here is that history centered, linear Catholic minds … will have a difficult time grasping Paganism or much of the New Age movement.
I agree with this almost entirely, but my agreement fails me when the general principle you have stated takes the form of a criticism.

The principle I agree with, is that an absolutist perception of that which is real, will necessarily find contradiction in a perspective of reality which is relativist.

On the other hand, to say that a mind which has accepted Catholicism is unprepared to truly understand the basic assumptions of paganism, is to degrade the Catholic mind. How so? Why, you are proposing that paganism is by nature of a far greater depth than Catholicism is.

Simple meaning, or shallowness, versus multiple meaning, and thus depth, is a valid conflict in ideas. But let not depth and incoherency be confused!

I view the following as being incoherent:
Yes, Paganism will undoutably have some links and similarities to the Paganism of the past. And Yes, much of it will be new ideas or a synthesis of other traditions compiled to make a new system of belief or practice.
What is the criterion by which an individual pagan should decide which “new idea” he should “synthesise” with “other traditions,” thus making “a new system of belief or practice?”

I postulate that there is no such criterion which cannot be named merely by the name of emotionalism. To make such a word as emotionalism “holy” by giving it that ancient word “gnosis” is simply to make ultimate truth a symbol for self-actualisation; and the “religion” by which such a thing should be achieved, an abstract and watery psychotherapy.
What the linear, historic religious mind fails to grasp is that Paganism is NOT A HISTORY CENTERED FAITH."
You speak of the negation of history as if it were something to be idealised. Why?
And thus, the majority of its practicioners could care less what of their faith is new and what of it is old. They know some elements stem back thousands of years and they know that many do not. But ultimately the faith has nothing do with their ancestors, with history or the significance of things in the past.
Hm… this is shocking, quite frankly.
Paganism is a religion of primordial truth…that is, it exists OUTSIDE of history.
Excuse me, but what does “OUTSIDE” of history mean? If paganism’s truth is “primordial,” and if its effects thus cannot be perceived by the eye of history, then what are you referring to? and how did you come to be able to be aware of it, thus referring to it in the first place?
This is why mythology is important, it espouses pre-historic truths, no one is asking if it literally happened or not, that part is irrelevant.
You speak of mythology as if it were sacred art. However, to say that an artist has arrived at the truth of reality via the medium of his art is only one possiblity. The other possiblity is that the art itself is a product of the artists perception of truth. You seem to adhere to the second possibility, whilst ignoring the methodology by which the artist has come to perceive his truth in the first place. If you say that there is nothing which the artist can perceive as truth, then you are claiming a third possibility: that art exists solely within its own context. But if this is so, then how does “mythology…espouse…truth…?”
Essentially, Paganism is an internal faith, it plays out within. This is why the religious experience is so subjective…giving the appearance that truth is, when in fact, she is constantly manifesting herself in different forms.
Either truth is truth, and exists as truth regardless of whether or not we can perceive it; or else there is no such thing as truth, but emotionalism, on the one hand, and statistics on the other. Catholics tend to speak in terms of truth, whilst pagans tend to speak in terms of emotionalism and intuition.

But yet, there is a third option, and it is called deception. I use that word here to describe the state of a man who refers to his emotionalism as truth. Paganism seems to believe in an ultimate truth, but yet seems to believe that such a truth is beyond man, or is unknowable; on the other hand, paganism holds that man can grasp a small portion of the truth, as defined by man’s emotionalism.
It reminds me of the Rig Veda, “Truth is one, but men call her by many names”
I agree with that statement entirely. But you seem to want to use it as if it said “Truth is one, but reveals itself to men using many different masks.” Pagans believe my own wording of your statement, whilst no one with even a shred of common sense would deny yours.
 
The problem here is that history centered, linear Catholic minds (seeing as the Christian faith is rooted on supposed historic events and the significance of those events) will have a difficult time grasping Paganism or much of the New Age movement.

Yes, Paganism will undoutably have some links and similarities to the Paganism of the past. And Yes, much of it will be new ideas or a synthesis of other traditions compiled to make a new system of belief or practice.

What the linear, historic religious mind fails to grasp is that Paganism is NOT A HISTORY CENTERED FAITH. And thus, the majority of its practicioners could care less what of their faith is new and what of it is old. They know some elements stem back thousands of years and they know that many do not. But ultimately the faith has nothing do with their ancestors, with history or the significance of things in the past. Paganism is a religion of primordial truth…that is, it exists OUTSIDE of history. This is why mythology is important, it espouses pre-historic truths, no one is asking if it literally happened or not, that part is irrelevant.

Essentially, Paganism is an internal faith, it plays out within. This is why the religious experience is so subjective…giving the appearance that truth is, when in fact, she is constantly manifesting herself in different forms.

It reminds me of the Rig Veda, “Truth is one, but men call her by many names”
I fully agree with you:thumbsup:
 
truth is always subjective.
Oh my. You may choose not to subjectively believe that a speeding car is headed straight towards you, but believe or not it is objective truth that you will get run over by it if you don’t get out of the way.
 
I agree with this almost entirely, but my agreement fails me when the general principle you have stated takes the form of a criticism.
I understand that you disagree with my analysis. To me, the centrality of “sacred history” in the Christian faith is a serious problem and one of the reasons that I can no longer be Christian in the conventional sense.
The principle I agree with, is that an absolutist perception of that which is real, will necessarily find contradiction in a perspective of reality which is relativist.
Interesting that you consider me to be a relativist. I think you’ll find I walk a decliate line, what I consider a neccessary medium between full fledged relatvism and the absolutism (a kind of fundamentalism really) that plagues so much of the Christian faith. Both are to look the intense and, at times, overwhelming complexity of life in the eye and turn away on account of fear.

I agree with you that there is an absolute perception of what is real. I just don’t believe that you have that perception. In fact, there is a certain contradiction to the idea of absolute perception. An absolute perception of reality is the annhiliation of perception; pure objectivity. Consciousness interacts with the world on a subject-object basis. Reality, neccesitated by our own consciousness, is interpreted by humankind.
What is the criterion by which an individual pagan should decide which “new idea” he should “synthesise” with "other traditions,
I am not a pagan. I do not know their criterion, what they look for in their pagan faith. When I assimilate something from another faith into my spiritual practice it is usually because I feel it to be particularly insightful, relevant and conductive my spiritual ascent. (There are criterion, just broader than your own)
You speak of the negation of history as if it were something to be idealised. Why?
History is great if you’re a historian. However, since it is limited to what we can gather “historically happened” and thus, ideally, has “one interpretation”, in this sense it is stagnant and dead. Perfect for a kind of frigid scientific dissection, but not as a vehicle of spiritual experience.
Hm… this is shocking, quite frankly.
As I said, this is something new for the linear oriented mind.
Excuse me, but what does “OUTSIDE” of history mean? If paganism’s truth is “primordial,” and if its effects thus cannot be perceived by the eye of history, then what are you referring to? and how did you come to be able to be aware of it, thus referring to it in the first place?
By outside of history, I mean that it is not limited nor confined or defined by any historic moments. The Revelation of God is ongoing, ceasless, an eternal movement and outpouring, as potent and significant now as ever before. Forever waiting to be heard. “He who has ears let him hear”.

**The Revelation of God is not a posession. It is not looking back or behind, its looking inward and upward. **
You speak of mythology as if it were sacred art
Yes, I do, very much for the reasons I have described above. Mythology is not truthful simply because its mythology, but it proves to be a much more capable vessel of revelation than does history. Mythology is fluid and alive, changing and pulsing as though with a beat of a heart. It is multi-demensional, non-linear, never limited by the concerns that render history stagnated. It contains so many of the trademarks of the spiritual life and experience as something that is uncontained, transcendent, fluid and relative to the one who experiences it.

Mythology restores life to the spiritual religion.
“Truth is one, but reveals itself to men using many different masks.”
Yes, that’s a perfect critique of my position. Human beings are not capable of objectivity. Physiologically speaking this is demonstrated with something as simple as our eye. The human eye must reduce everything it sees by a factor of (i believe) 100. What we see is not what is in reality there. We interpret reality, so Truth clothes herself in the colors of our experiences. When she is met and embraced she will, in certain moments, lift her mask so that we may taste something this reality that transcends our grasp.
 
Then I guess there really is no truth. Convenient.
haha we have a Nihilist ppl!

I personally dont like Neo-pagans. The original pagans were much more interesting and better civilized than their Christian counterparts ( at least the Romans and Greeks) in my opinion.

My problem with neo-pagans is that i cant take them seriously. “Ooo look at me! I have a magic wand and will throw sparkly dust at you if you arouse my auir! laadeedaa” etc

Cmon, lets be realistic. Neo-paganism is a rip-off of D&D gaming manuel:p
 
Oh my. You may choose not to subjectively believe that a speeding car is headed straight towards you, but believe or not it is objective truth that you will get run over by it if you don’t get out of the way.
…and the point of this is…?
You believe I’m wrong. I believe you’re wrong.
 
well no but we should try 2 avoid the religion and anytheing involving it becasue anything other than worshipping GOD is IDOLATRY the first commandment is Thou shalt have no other gods before me. also u whole having no other Gods before him…U CANT HAVE ANY OTHER GODS AT ALL Muslims do the same thing so they r both bad but whether u should shun or not is a tricky question here sum Bible passges on y u cant have other gods or goddesses and be going 2 heaven at the same time biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=32&version=9 read this ch.
 
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