Christians Who Claim Bible Allows Fornication

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patricius79

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Recently I’ve suddenly come across Christians on Christian Forums who are claiming that the Bible never condemns pre-marital sex, and that pre-marital sex (fornication) is not wrong.

They claim that the Law of Moses never condemns sex between unmarried people.

Does anyone know anything about this? I had never heard of anyone claiming to be a Christian who claims this idea.

They appear to be saying that the Greek word “porneia”, which in 1 Cor 6:9 is translated as “fornication” or “sexual immorality” is really referring to the use of prostitution, not to pre-marital sex generally.

Apparently Young’s Literal Translation translates “fornicators” as “whoremongers”
biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm
 
I’ve not heard of that argument specifically but I’m not surprised.

Abortion, euthenasia, contraception, homosexual marriage, the death penalty… Why not fornication? Why not fornication with their 14 year old daughter for that matter?

Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!
(Isaiah 5:20)

-Tim-
 
When I was a protestant, I believe I heard one preacher say that pre-marital sex is not condemned in The Bible. Or maybe that is was not mentioned? I do not remember exactly. It was actually weird when he said whatever it was he said. Maybe I misunderstood him because I am pretty sure that was not what he believed based on other things he said. But there is a flavor of Protestantism to suite every view. I think it is more likely though just to find a protestant church that teaches that yes, fornication is a sin but no worse than stealing a penny because sin is sin so the seriousness of it is never really a concern to whoever is engaging in it while going to this church every sunday.
 
TimothyH said:
I’ve not heard of that argument specifically but I’m not surprised.

Abortion, euthenasia, contraception, homosexual marriage, the death penalty… Why not fornication? Why not fornication with their 14 year old daughter for that matter?

Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!
(Isaiah 5:20)

-Tim-
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Wow does that ring true to some of my experiences lately with those who don’t believe in much sexual morality. Just to believe that sexual immorality is wrong is to hold views which are “grossly ignorant”, “judgmental”, and “negative”.
 
Sex in the Bible is presumed to consummate a Marriage. “For this reason a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two become one flesh”.

For example, (aside from Jesus saying so), Dt 2:28-29. If a man seizes a virgin, he is presumed to have married her and must never divorce her.
 
HI,

Interesting, I have been attending a non-Catholic bible study group. We are studying 2 Corinthians. The class had a discussion on the man who was living with his fathers wife.

(1Co 5:1 KJV) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

The question was ask if this man is shunned in the church and out of fellowship, is he still (saved)? I answered that he would not get into Heaven,as Paul states you cannot get into heaven if you commit that sin, among others.

The classes answer was that he is still saved, he just has backslid, and cannot loose he salvation, imagine that?🤷
 
patricius79, This is not new. There have been different variations of sexual perversions by those who claim to follow Christ, and some of them have tried to make it official teaching in their man made churches.

You are asking about fornication, but this also applies to polygamy as well. The same argument is used Jesus said not to divorce your spouse. People then say well he did say no sex with animals, or with women and men before marriage, or with 6’1" women, or with blah blah blah. It is the Catholic Church established by Jesus himself Mt 16:18 that offically taught what Jesus meant, and the apostles conveyed that truth in scripture passages such as not allowing the marriage bed to be defiled. Of course with private interpretation anyone can come along and say this passage doesn’t mean or apply to fornication. Even though fornication is listed multiple times as a deadly sin, and the early Church fathers spoke of its evil often.

The most recent scandals of this have come through the protestant reformation. In U.S. history you have the Mormons, when applying for Utah’s statehood" sent delegates to a protestant congress to remind them that Martin Luther himself allowed polygamy by granting Phillip of Hesse multiple wives as Jesus never said ONLY ONE wife. And as we should all know from the words of Martin of Luther, “no where in scripture does Jesus forbid more than one wife”. This is also the one an only Father of protestant religion who stated if the wife is unwilling let the maid come.

At the end Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to lead the Church into all truth, and Paul proclaims it the pillar of truth. The Church is protected by the Holy Spirit not to teach error. The bible alone crowd make use of Gods word sometimes to call evil good and good evil.
 
Billy_Buescher said:
The question was ask if this man is shunned in the church and out of fellowship, is he still (saved)? I answered that he would not get into Heaven,as Paul states you cannot get into heaven if you commit that sin, among others.
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How can this be? If one commits an immoral act, can you not confess & repent, & be forgiven?

After all - and I have wondered about this for a while - how can King David be such a revered figure in Scripture (including the genealogy of Jesus), when he not only committed adultery with Bathsheba, but had her husband killed…? Just wondering.
 
Its found in the O. T. and misinterpreted. I know my brother tried to use it for an excuse for bad behavior. The N. T. does not support this as Jesus came to enlighten. In the O. T. it was acceptable to take a deceased brother’s wife for her welfare. It was also a mode to go forth and propagate the land. It is amazing how bad boys and big brothers will try to use the O. T. for excuses to skirt around the Ten Commandments Just saying…😦
 
SMH_2015 said:
How can this be? If one commits an immoral act, can you not confess & repent, & be forgiven?

After all - and I have wondered about this for a while - how can King David be such a revered figure in Scripture (including the genealogy of Jesus), when he not only committed adultery with Bathsheba, but had her husband killed…? Just wondering.
Click to expand...
In David’s time he was honored as a grate military commander as well as a King. He did have a hero status, as some of the movie and rock Stars do today. That does not mean he was free from sins. The story of David was written from the writer’s perspective. David must have kicked sand into the little guy’s face for it to have been written about. Remember that good guys pass through history and are soon forgotten. The antics of some of the most evil people seem to take on some kind of luster of gory…glory and live on in history. While the bible is inspired scripture it also is historical. Just my opinion.
 
Mary_Estelle said:
In the O. T. it was acceptable to take a deceased brother’s wife for her welfare. It was also a mode to go forth and propagate the land. It is amazing how bad boys and big brothers will try to use the O. T. for excuses to skirt around the Ten Commandments
Click to expand...
Mary, you are talking about he Leverite law. That was not about fornication. If that is what you intended to say. The other brother, if he was not married, was supposed to take deceased brothers wife.(DT 25:5 ff)

The only religion that has been truly monogamous is Christianity.

The the poster after you. David was punished after taking the wife of Uriah. His child died. Note: Davide repented of his sin. That is why David is still revered because he was not perfect, but when he was shown his sin he repented before God and man and did not keep his sin hidden.
 
ichabode said:
Mary, you are talking about he Leverite law. That was not about fornication. If that is what you intended to say. The other brother, if he was not married, was supposed to take deceased brothers wife.(DT 25:5 ff)

The only religion that has been truly monogamous is Christianity.

The the poster after you. David was punished after taking the wife of Uriah. His child died. Note: Davide repented of his sin. That is why David is still revered because he was not perfect, but when he was shown his sin he repented before God and man and did not keep his sin hidden.
Click to expand...
I was making a general referral to the O. T. as my brother tried to use it as an excuse for being a bad boy. I am not really well versed about David. I should go back and read it again. Thanks
 
patricius79 said:
Recently I’ve suddenly come across Christians on Christian Forums who are claiming that the Bible never condemns pre-marital sex, and that pre-marital sex (fornication) is not wrong.

They claim that the Law of Moses never condemns sex between unmarried people.

Does anyone know anything about this? I had never heard of anyone claiming to be a Christian who claims this idea.

They appear to be saying that the Greek word “porneia”, which in 1 Cor 6:9 is translated as “fornication” or “sexual immorality” is really referring to the use of prostitution, not to pre-marital sex generally.

Apparently Young’s Literal Translation translates “fornicators” as “whoremongers”
biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-9.htm
Click to expand...
That is the difference between interpreting the Bible according to one’s own desires rather than the author’s desires. They are reading into the Bible what they want to see. It reminds me of the passage about finding teachers to satisfy itching ears. Many shop churches like this that tell them what they want to hear, rather than objectively looking for truth. Jesus said everyone on the side of truth listens to him.
 
I’m sure that fornication is evil. But does anyone here know enough Greek to explain how we know that the Greek word used in passages like Mt 15:19, commonly translated as “fornication”, is definitely referring to premarital sex?
 
patricius79 said:
I’m sure that fornication is evil. But does anyone here know enough Greek to explain how we know that the Greek word used in passages like Mt 15:19, commonly translated as “fornication”, is definitely referring to premarital sex?
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The word porneia is where we get the word porn from. The word means fornication, but it also means many other illicit sexual unions including bestiality and incest.

You have run into someone that says see because it can mean incest then it does not mean fornication. Instead the verse is saying all those things that are not good and not from God start in your own heart.

Ancient words often times had a broad range of meaning. It would be strange to have a generation today that speaks English with over a million words in the language to say, “Well we define fornication quite specifically to mean X.” At the end of the day the passage states that sin originates in the heart.
 
ichabode said:
The word porneia is where we get the word porn from. The word means fornication, but it also means many other illicit sexual unions including bestiality and incest.

You have run into someone that says see because it can mean incest then it does not mean fornication. Instead the verse is saying all those things that are not good and not from God start in your own heart.

Ancient words often times had a broad range of meaning. It would be strange to have a generation today that speaks English with over a million words in the language to say, “Well we define fornication quite specifically to mean X.” At the end of the day the passage states that sin originates in the heart.
Click to expand...
Last time I checked my interlinear, I could have sworn porneia meant adultery. Which is one and the same thing as fornication, if my understanding is correct.
 
LaughingBoy1503 said:
Last time I checked my interlinear, I could have sworn porneia meant adultery. Which is one and the same thing as fornication, if my understanding is correct.
Click to expand...
The word porneia like many ancient words have a broad meaning. It means any illicit sexual act outside of marriage. This includes adultery, fornication, incest, sex with prostitutes, and animals etc.

The same word is used in MT 5:32. "whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of , causeth her to commit adultery"Note: You do not find that word in the parallel passages (Lk 16:18 and Mk 10:11). Many commentators translate it as adultery or fornication, and therefore allow for divorce. The better translation would be incest or some form of an illicit union. Pagans are to be joining the Church of God and marriage between brother and sister etc were frowned upon but not forbidden.
 
Though it comes as a surprise because of our condemnation of pre-marital sex, the Catholic position is that the OP’s interlocutors are CORRECT to the extent that the Church has not (yet) asserted that there exists a divinely revealed condemnation of fornication. Porneia is a very broad term for all sorts of illicit sexual activity, but one must actually substantiate that a practice is illicit before one can claim blanket coverage under porneia, and the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns sex between two unmarried people who do not fall under other condemnations (like those of incest, homosexuality, or Onanism).

The interlocutors are INCORRECT in concluding that absent an explicit condemnation fornication must therefore be morally licit. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith explained that our belief in the immorality of fornication is, at least for now, a doctrine “de fide tenenda” which means it is taught infallibly (we *must *believe it) but as a logical conclusion from revelation, not a revealed datum itself (which would make it dogma, a point “de fide credenda”). See the linked document at par. 11 at the bottom.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_1998_professio-fidei_en.html

So the short answer is, no the Bible doesn’t outright say fornication is wrong but it expresses all the principles to drive us to that conclusion (and the Church, the authorized interpreter of the Scriptures she committed to writing, has told us that we must conclude this).
 
Andreas_Hofer said:
Though it comes as a surprise because of our condemnation of pre-marital sex, the Catholic position is that the OP’s interlocutors are CORRECT to the extent that the Church has not (yet) asserted that there exists a divinely revealed condemnation of fornication. Porneia is a very broad term for all sorts of illicit sexual activity, but one must actually substantiate that a practice is illicit before one can claim blanket coverage under porneia, and the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns sex between two unmarried people who do not fall under other condemnations (like those of incest, homosexuality, or Onanism).

The interlocutors are INCORRECT in concluding that absent an explicit condemnation fornication must therefore be morally licit. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith explained that our belief in the immorality of fornication is, at least for now, a doctrine “de fide tenenda” which means it is taught infallibly (we *must *believe it) but as a logical conclusion from revelation, not a revealed datum itself (which would make it dogma, a point “de fide credenda”). See the linked document at par. 11 at the bottom.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_1998_professio-fidei_en.html

So the short answer is, no the Bible doesn’t outright say fornication is wrong but it expresses all the principles to drive us to that conclusion (and the Church, the authorized interpreter of the Scriptures she committed to writing, has told us that we must conclude this).
Click to expand...
I am shocked!

Mat 15:19 list out the the things that defile a man and that includes fornication
Mark 7:20 an even longer list to not-to-do things and fornication is one of them
Rev 21:8 fornicators going to end up the the lake that burns.

I am surprised that these verses don’t seem to carry any weight. Fornication defiles and get one to hell. Period.
 
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