Christmas 2017

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phil19034 said:
Because there isn’t a Saturday obligation (unless you are a priest). 🤷
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Priests are not under any obligation to celebrate Mass on a Saturday, unless a priest is part of an order that has such a requirement.
1ke said:
Yes, but HDOs including Mary, Mother of God, Assumption, and All Saints have the obligation to attend mass abrogated when they fall on Saturday or Monday in the US.

Immaculate Conception and Christmas do not. So, it would only be an issue for those two.
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Yes, but ironically, when Immaculate Conception falls on a Sunday, it is transferred to the next day, but in the United States, the obligation to attend does not also transfer.
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur476.htm
 
phil19034 said:
Because there isn’t a Saturday obligation (unless you are a priest). 🤷
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Well, technically a priest is only obligated to say mass when the laity are supposed to go to mass

So, yes you are right. There is no Saturday Obligation. I should have switched it around :D:blush:

What I meant to say was: Why can’t my Saturday Morning Mass fulfill my Sunday Obligation? It’s on Saturday like the Vigil.

But let’s up the ante. Let’s take the question you are raising. Does fulfilling my Christmas on Sunday (the eve before Monday) fulfill my Sunday obligation and let’s switch it around, since to have a singular answer it must work both ways.

Does it work the other way around? Does my Sunday Morning Mass fulfill my Christmas Mass since it happens the Day before?

If so, then can I go to Saturday Vigil Mass (which TECHNICALLY fulfills the Sunday Mass) to fulfill both my Sunday and Christmas Obligation? By the Logic of your question, the implications would suggest that this works.

😃

I think I’m seeing the confusion, though, that might help clarify.

When we as Catholics speak of solemnities and the day they cover, they TECHNICALLY start the day before when we look strictly at a physical calendar marked off by squares and times. I’ll lay it out.

The Solemnity of Sunday, or one Sunday looks like this (an example):
Start Time: Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 4:00 P.M.
End Time: Sunday, December 18, 2016 at 11:59 P.M.
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This Constitutes a Sunday. Same goes for a solemnity (immaculate Conception example):
Start Time: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 at 4:00 P.M.
End Time: Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 11:59 P.M.
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Thus, going to Mass on Saturday Morning, in the first case, or Wednesday morning, in the second case, does not fulfill your Solemnity Obligation because it does not fall within the time frame of the day.

Make sense so far?

So now let’s take your question. 4th Sunday of Advent, 2017.
Start Time: Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 4:00 P.M.
End Time: Sunday, December 24, 2017 at 11:59 P.M.
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Now Christmas 2017.
Start Time: Sunday, December 24, 2017 at 4:00 p.m.
End Time: Monday, December 25, 2017 at 11:59 P.M.
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There’s the problem. The Solemnity of Christmas Overlaps with the 4th Sunday of Advent. So, in order to resolve this, we must ask the hierarchy of solemnities. We know for a fact that the highest Solemnity feasts of the Liturgical year are Christmas and Easter, with Easter being the highest one (which is why it’s called “Easter Duty”).

Because of this, Christmas trumps the 4th Sunday of Advent Solemnity. But, like we noted above, the day of the solemnity does not start until 4:00 P.M. the day before. Therefore our time adjustments should look like this.

4th Sunday of Advent 2017:
Start Time: Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 4:00 P.M.
End Time: Sunday, December 24, 2017 at 3:59 P.M.
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Christmas 2017
Start Time: Sunday, December 24, 2017 at 4:00 p.m.
End Time: Monday, December 25, 2017 at 11:59 P.M.
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Therefore, one cannot cover both the Sunday Obligation and the Christmas obligation in the same Mass because of the differentiation of days.

BUT to make matters more complicated, yet simpler, if you attend a Christmas Eve Mass (which still TECHNICALLY happens on a physical Sunday) AND a Christmas day Mass, you would have fulfilled both Obligations. Why? Because one Mass (the first one) covers the Sunday and the Second covers the Christmas.

You could also go to Mass Sunday Morning AND Christmas Eve Mass later that evening and fulfill both obligations. Why? Because the first one covers Sunday and the Second one covers Christmas (because it falls within the timeline of the Solemnity of Christmas).

WOW. I can’t believe that’s how much explaining this would take. It would have been sooooo much easier in person :D:D

Bascially, I hope you see why one Mass cannot cover two different Obligations. My preferred method (which I do when I’m home at my parish) is I go to Sunday morning Mass and then Christmas Eve.

Please, I pray that this helps you
 
Bballer32 said:
It’s based off of the Jewish Tradition of Sundown starting the feast for the following day.** So the Church solidified that and gave it a specific time,** since sundown takes place at different times throughout the world and in different seasons.

I cannot say Evening Prayer in my breviary Technically until 4 p.m. This is also why Saturday Vigil Masses are no earlier than 4 P.M.
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Has the Church spoken definitively about this in the last few years? There have been a number of threads regarding when “evening” begins and the general consensus has been that there is no consensus among canon lawyers as to when “evening” begins for liturgical purposes. A number of canon law commentaries argue for 2:00 start and some even argue that noon is the earliest time. canonlaw.info/2008/11/time-period-for-fulfilling-sunday.html The local FSSP parish has Vespers at 3:00 PM on Sundays.

To be clear, I’m not talking about the concept of the day beginning the evening before, just about your assertion that the church has stated that evening begins at 4:00.
 
1ke said:
Yes, but HDOs including Mary, Mother of God, Assumption, and All Saints have the obligation to attend mass abrogated when they fall on Saturday or Monday in the US.

Immaculate Conception and Christmas do not.

So, it would only be an issue for those two.
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Right, in the United States. If a reader is in Canada, then this situation applies to them because in Canada the Holy Day isn’t abrogated. Canada only had two Holy Days, Christmas and Mary, Mother of God (New Year’s) so this is only an issue for them once every 8 years or so
 
I doubt it as Christmas Eve Mass is separate from Sunday vigil.
 
What will probably happen in my diocese is that the Bishop will decide and then inform the Pastors, who then will inform the parishioners of what the Bishop has decided. I suspect that will happen in other places too.
 
phil19034 said:
I was reading another post and this crossed my mind…

Next year, Christmas 2017 will be on a Monday.

If does that mean that if someone attend Christmas Eve Vigil Mass (not Midnight Mass), they can meet two Mass obligations by attending one mass?

Aka, meet the Sunday requirement and the Christmas requirement by attending a 6PM or 8PM Christmas Eve Mass?
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The norms in the USA are that two observances are required for Sunday and Christmas or Sunday and Immaculate Conception. But, Hawaii does not require Immaculate Conception.
  • January 1, the solemnity of Mary, Mother of God -]
  • Thursday of the Sixth Week of Easter, the solemnity of the Ascension
  • August 15, the solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary -]
  • November 1, the solemnity of All Saints -]
  • December 8, the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception
  • December 25, the solemnity of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ
-] Whenever January 1, the solemnity of Mary, Mother of God, or August 15, the solemnity of the Assumption, or November 1, the solemnity of All Saints, falls on a Saturday or on a Monday, the precept to attend Mass is abrogated.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/canon-law/complementary-norms/canon-1246.cfm
 
I have always understood that two obligations require two Masses.

So if Christmas is on Monday and I go to Mass on Sunday evening when I haven’t been to Mass within the last 24 hours give or take, I meet my Sunday obligation regardless of which Mass is celebrated.

I would then have to return to Mass later in the evening or on Christmas Day for a second Mass to meet my Christmas obligation.
 
phil19034 said:
I was reading another post and this crossed my mind…

Next year, Christmas 2017 will be on a Monday.

If does that mean that if someone attend Christmas Eve Vigil Mass (not Midnight Mass), they can meet two Mass obligations by attending one mass?

Aka, meet the Sunday requirement and the Christmas requirement by attending a 6PM or 8PM Christmas Eve Mass?
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No.

The Church articulates two separate and distinct obligations.

There is one obligation to attend Mass on Sunday. This obligation can be met anytime from evening (vespere) on Saturday to midnight Sunday.

There is one obligation to attend Mass on Christmas (in your scenario, Monday). This obligation can be met anytime from evening (vespere) on Sunday to midnight Monday.

One + one = two.

**Two separate obligations means two Masses. **

This would not apply if Christmas falls on a Sunday (as in 2016) because the liturgical day of Christmas replaces the liturgical day of a Sunday in December (a non-existent 5th Sunday of Advent). It is still Sunday, but the liturgical celebration of Christmas replaces the usual Sunday liturgy. In 2016, there is only one obligation.

**When we have two obligations, we must satisfy both of them. **

For an example from secular life, let’s say bread at the local grocer is $2. I go into the store, I hand the owner $2 and walk out the door with a loaf. If I want two loaves, I have to pay $4. I cannot hand the owner $2 for the first one, then take another one, and when the owner asks for payment, I say “I already paid you $2 for the first loaf, I want you to count that for the second as well.” Nope. If I take two loaves, I have to pay for both of them, because each one incurs an obligation to pay $2. Each obligation is distinct from the other.
 
phil19034 said:
…does that mean that if someone attend Christmas Eve Vigil Mass (not Midnight Mass), they can meet two Mass obligations by attending one mass?
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😃

I find this whole topic a bit amusing.

First off, the people participating in this discussion are probably the least likely to even try to get a “two-fer”!

And secondly, there’s the juxtaposition of then and now. We are anticipating the year-away ‘inconvenience’ of the obligation to attend Mass two days in a row while we are days away from the ‘convenience’ of having our Sunday and Christmas obligations merged.
 
CB_Catholic said:
What will probably happen in my diocese is that the Bishop will decide and then inform the Pastors, who then will inform the parishioners of what the Bishop has decided. I suspect that will happen in other places too.
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This is precisely what happens here. It hasn’t been that long ago that we had this very issue.
 
I was thinking about this thread since I was updating my calendar with other appoints in December 2017. I suspect what’s going to happen here in the dear old Arch of KCK is we’ll have a our regular scheduled 4th Sunday vigil Masses and Sunday morning masses…then the evening Masses scheduled on Sunday night will be Christmas Eve Masses.

So because I’m one to plan a weekend a full year out, I’m going to write down 5:00 pm on Saturday, December 23rd (for my 4th Sunday obligation) and Sunday, December 24th at 4:00 pm (for my Christmas Day obligation).

Now what I plan to marvel at is the difference in crowd size at the 5 pm Saturday and the 4 pm Sunday.
 
Interestingly, if a person normally attends a Sunday evening Mass, that would not count for Sunday next year. One would have to go Saturday evening or Sunday morning for Sunday and Sunday evening or Monday for Christmas.
 
peter26 said:
Interestingly, if a person normally attends a Sunday evening Mass, that would not count for Sunday next year. One would have to go Saturday evening or Sunday morning for Sunday and Sunday evening or Monday for Christmas.
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What makes you say so?

🍿

tee
Armchair Liturgical Calendar Nerd 🤓
But Not A Canon Lawyer
 
peter26 said:
Well normal rule I believe is 4pm onwards is a vigil if the following day is a Day of Obligation.
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Even if the Mass celebrated was the Christmas Mass it would still count for Sunday. You’d still have to attend another Mass to meet yor Christmas obligation.

I know, I know. I can’t help it. 😃
 
Actually for me its more “I get to go to church an extra time and my family can’t roll their eyes at it because I ** have** to”. 😉
 
peter26 said:
Well normal rule I believe is 4pm onwards is a vigil if the following day is a Day of Obligation.
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For Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation the available time to satisfy the obligation is midnight to midnight on the day itself, and in addition the evening of the previous day.

There are 10 pm Sunday masses regularly in Fall and Spring, at Notre Dame College, in Residence Hall.
 
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