Christmas, Mary, and the LDS

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Being the season of Advent and just having celebrated the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary I’ve been thinking about what role does Christmas & Mary play for the LDS.

I’m not aware of any church in Christianity that does not see Mary in a similar way to how the Catholic Church sees her. I do realize many Protestant do not venerate Mary as we do, but they believe as the story in Luke teaches.

My understanding is the LDS do not acknowledge Jesus Christ’s divinity while on earth, it was only after his death that he became divine or exalted. So how is Mary viewed? What does Christmas mean in the LDS?
 
I’ve always found this topic interesting, because having been around LDS for many years and having attended sacrament meetings around Christmas time, Mary has almost no role in their church. Mormons pretty much think of her as a good woman who just happened to be chosen as the earthly mother of Jesus. I believe it was Brigham Young who introduced some pretty bizarre teaching about Mary as the literal spouse of God, but LDS have distanced themselves from that teaching over the years. That’s about the extent of any attention they pay to her.

It’s sad because they fail to recognize just who Mary really is. This probably stems from the fact that most early LDS converts came from Protestant religions that were very anti-Catholic and wanted to separate themselves from Catholic teaching. It’s also particularly sad for LDS because of their belief in a heavenly mother, which holds that God the Father is married to a woman (or women). This heavenly mother is a mysterious, unknown being. But right in front of their eyes is Mary, who is actually the real heavenly mother.

Most LDS have no knowledge or understanding of the deep Marian themes found in the bible. They have no knowledge of her connection to the Ark of the Covenant, nor her role as Queen of Heaven. Of course this is not unique to LDS as many Protestant denominations are equally in the dark on this topic. The further Protestantism moved from Catholicism, the further they got away from Mary. The Early Church Fathers did, however, recognize the incredible parallels between Old Testament themes and Mary, and this was the foundation for the Church’s Marian devotions.
 
My understanding is the LDS do not acknowledge Jesus Christ’s divinity while on earth, it was only after his death that he became divine or exalted. So how is Mary viewed? What does Christmas mean in the LDS?
The bold is inaccurate. When I was LDS, He was seen as divine and God, though not in the Trinitarian sense, during His earthly ministry.

Mary is viewed pretty much the same way as she is for Protestants, and Christmas means the same thing to Mormons as it does to other Christians in the general sense. It’s the celebration of the birth of Christ, the Savior
 
The bold is inaccurate. When I was LDS, He was seen as divine and God, though not in the Trinitarian sense, during His earthly ministry.
Deuteronomy 6
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
 
Being the season of Advent and just having celebrated the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary I’ve been thinking about what role does Christmas & Mary play for the LDS.

I’m not aware of any church in Christianity that does not see Mary in a similar way to how the Catholic Church sees her. I do realize many Protestant do not venerate Mary as we do, but they believe as the story in Luke teaches.

My understanding is the LDS do not acknowledge Jesus Christ’s divinity while on earth, it was only after his death that he became divine or exalted. So how is Mary viewed? What does Christmas mean in the LDS?
LDS see Mary as any of the protestant Churches do; The mother of Jesus…virgin birth etc. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that they view Jesus as having been divine during his earthly ministry. Christmas is the same for any other Christian…birth of Christ? (do Catholics view it differently?)
 
LDS see Mary as any of the protestant Churches do; The mother of Jesus…virgin birth etc. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that they view Jesus as having been divine during his earthly ministry. Christmas is the same for any other Christian…birth of Christ? (do Catholics view it differently?)
Catholics view it more fully I believe, than many Protestant Christians or the LDS. The birth of Jesus Christ is the beginning of who we are as Catholics, as Christians.
 
LDS see Mary as any of the protestant Churches do; The mother of Jesus…virgin birth etc. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that they view Jesus as having been divine during his earthly ministry. Christmas is the same for any other Christian…birth of Christ? (do Catholics view it differently?)
The Incarnation is a central Christian doctrine. There are deep and irreconcilable divides between Christians and LDS on doctrines related to the Incarnation.

Christians celebrate the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,

A unique event. God left His heavenly abode and entered human history in human vesture.

Mormonism teaches that all humans are incarnate so not a unique event for them. It’s only unique in that it is Jesus not themselves. This is just one example of the divergence that Mormonism has from Christianity.

Jesus is the God who Christians worship. At the Feast of the Nativity we celebrate our God, entering the world. Born of the Virgin Mary, He became Man.
 
The Incarnation is a central Christian doctrine. There are deep and irreconcilable divides between Christians and LDS on doctrines related to the Incarnation.

Christians celebrate the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,

A unique event. God left His heavenly abode and entered human history in human vesture.

Mormonism teaches that all humans are incarnate so not a unique event for them. It’s only unique in that it is Jesus not themselves. This is just one example of the divergence that Mormonism has from Christianity.

Jesus is the God who Christians worship. At the Feast of the Nativity we celebrate our God, entering the world. Born of the Virgin Mary, He became Man.
I knew I remembered there was a difference of view on this. The difference is the Incarnation of Jesus viewed by Christianity is not the same as viewed as the LDS.
 
I knew I remembered there was a difference of view on this. The difference is the Incarnation of Jesus viewed by Christianity is not the same as viewed as the LDS.
Yes, Mormonism don’t believe in the incarnation the way Christianity does.
 
The Incarnation is a central Christian doctrine. There are deep and irreconcilable divides between Christians and LDS on doctrines related to the Incarnation.

Christians celebrate the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,

A unique event. God left His heavenly abode and entered human history in human vesture.

Mormonism teaches that all humans are incarnate so not a unique event for them. It’s only unique in that it is Jesus not themselves. This is just one example of the divergence that Mormonism has from Christianity.

Jesus is the God who Christians worship. At the Feast of the Nativity we celebrate our God, entering the world. Born of the Virgin Mary, He became Man.
Ah I see, thank-you for the clarification!
 
The Incarnation is a central Christian doctrine. There are deep and irreconcilable divides between Christians and LDS on doctrines related to the Incarnation.

Christians celebrate the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,

A unique event. God left His heavenly abode and entered human history in human vesture.

Mormonism teaches that all humans are incarnate so not a unique event for them. It’s only unique in that it is Jesus not themselves. This is just one example of the divergence that Mormonism has from Christianity.

Jesus is the God who Christians worship. At the Feast of the Nativity we celebrate our God, entering the world. Born of the Virgin Mary, He became Man.
Looks to me like the real difference here is the Catholic belief in creation ex-nihilo, and label placed on Christ’s birth. The Book of Mormon refers to Christ leaving His heavenly abode as “The Condescension of God” (See lds.org/ensign/2001/12/the-condescension-of-god?lang=eng for more information.)
 
Looks to me like the real difference here is the Catholic belief in creation ex-nihilo, and label placed on Christ’s birth. The Book of Mormon refers to Christ leaving His heavenly abode as “The Condescension of God” (See lds.org/ensign/2001/12/the-condescension-of-god?lang=eng for more information.)
It seems you did not understand RebeccaJ’s post at all. There is NO Incarnation in LDS teaching, just the process, get a spirit body, get a mortal body (God the Father did this, Jesus, not sure why the Holy Ghost didn’t) living in human history is just run of the mill for LDS. Which is why they are not astounded by Christ’s Incarnation and feel they need more prophets. Christ was not enough, He’s just one of us.
 
Christians celebrate the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,

A unique event. God left His heavenly abode and entered human history in human vesture.
Yes, all Christians (including LDS) celebrate this.
Mormonism teaches that all humans are incarnate so not a unique event for them. It’s only unique in that it is Jesus not themselves.
Jesus Christ’s birth IS a unique event, because He is JESUS CHRIST. He is the Lord, Savior, Son of God, lamb to be slain. His brith is a marvelous thing to be celebrated.
 
It seems you did not understand RebeccaJ’s post at all.
Perhaps I don’t . Educate me.
There is NO Incarnation in LDS teaching,
But there is God coming down from His throne, to receive a body and live among us.
just the process, get a spirit body, get a mortal body (God the Father did this, Jesus, not sure why the Holy Ghost didn’t)
Excluding the physical nature of God the Father, how is the difference not creation ex-nihilo? In LDS belief our spirits (including that of Jesus) existed prior to conception. Though I’m not Catholic, my best understanding is that only Jesus’ spirit pre-existed conception.

It’s to be expected that Jesus follows the Father’s example when it comes to getting a body.

John 5:19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, a son cannot do anything on his own, but only what he sees his father doing; for what he does, his son will do also.
living in human history is just run of the mill for LDS.
I’m LDS and I don’t think Jesus living in human history is just run of the mill. WIthout Jesus’ mortal existence there is no forgiveness of sins nor resurrection.
Which is why they are not astounded by Christ’s Incarnation and feel they need more prophets. Christ was not enough,
And Catholic feel they need Apostles and Apostolic successors. Not sure what the practical difference is here…
He’s just one of us.
Hardly. He’s “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8)
 
For Mormons, even though they believe in the preexistence of all, including Christ as elder brother, Jesus, known as Jehovah to Mormons in His preexistence, is and was unique.

To try and say Mormons think of Christ, whether in His life, or in the pre-existence according to their theology, as just like everyone else, is not to understand Mormon theology.

For Mormons, Christ is and always has been uniquely different.
 
Yes, all Christians (including LDS) celebrate this.

Jesus Christ’s birth IS a unique event, because He is JESUS CHRIST. He is the Lord, Savior, Son of God, lamb to be slain. His brith is a marvelous thing to be celebrated.
Sorry Mormons never teach that Jesus IS God. Maybe a god, who was not fully god, and a half god becuase of DNA or some such nonsense, until the resurrection.

Any spirit in the Mormon belief system could have been your idea of savior.

Only God can save us. Jesus is God. He could not be replaced with another volunteer. As there is no other. Least of all a fallen angel.
 
For Mormons, even though they believe in the preexistence of all, including Christ as elder brother, Jesus, known as Jehovah to Mormons in His preexistence, is and was unique.

To try and say Mormons think of Christ, whether in His life, or in the pre-existence according to their theology, as just like everyone else, is not to understand Mormon theology.

For Mormons, Christ is and always has been uniquely different.
Sure uniquely different after being selected as the volunteer, but not the only volunteer. Unique in utility not in nature.
 
Sure uniquely different after being selected as the volunteer, but not the only volunteer. Unique in utility not in nature.
??? I’m not sure what you are talking about here. Christ alone is the Son of God.
 
The Incarnation, as viewed by Catholics, is a complex mystery that receives a great deal of attention from theologians throughout our Church’s history. Paragraph 460 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”
These quotes come from a time when the Church was embroiled in the Arian Heresy. St. Athanasius was a major player in attempting to argue for the divinity of Christ. He does this through is writing “On the Incarnation”. Here is a link to that document.

Arius and his followers believed that Jesus was created by God the Father - and was thus not co-eternal with the Father and was also non con-substantial with the Father. However, Athanasius writes a document that discusses the experience of the Christian and how the teaching of Arius would invalidate the actual experience of the Christian. And, it was his arguments that carried the day at the council and thus defeated the Arian Heresy.

What is interesting about paragraph 460 in the context of this tread is that it has some verbiage that could be taken to support the LDS view of Christmas. God became man, that seems to line up. Then, there is this statement that he “might make men gods.” Whoa - what? Men becoming gods? That sounds very LDS like, doesn’t it?

However, difference between the Catholic understanding of paragraph 460 and the Incarnation, and the LDS teaching on Christmas is that Catholics believe that there was a point in time when humanity became “of the species of God” (that is my terminology - probably has some problems, but I’m trying to say that what St. Athanasius is talking about is what happened at the Incarnation to every human - not what happens later after a person dies and becomes a god themselves.) So, at Christmas, as Catholics, we celebrate that Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, co-eternal with the Father, came down in unspeakable humility to take on human nature. At that moment, by virtue of this act, that self same human nature became elevated.

So, that is why, I think, that it is somewhat fair to say that the LDS view God becoming man as being just a “run of the mill” event. Before Jesus came down, heaven, he was already human. And so, the Christmas event was not disruptive whatsoever.

For the Catholic, the Incarnation is a tremendously disruptive part of human history. And, Mary, being the mother of Jesus, is uniquely honored for having the amazing grace to play an active participatory role in this amazing, happy disruption!
 
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