Christmas Mass obligation

[malphono]

No, it’s JPII who promulgated the law. He gets to decide what the law means. And he did say that the time for the so-called anticipated Mass is “the time of First Vespers” which the Churchh says is 4 o’clock.

Regardless of what the English word “evening” means, the Latin word “vespers” means (by the Church’s definition) 4 o’clock. That’s the only definition which applies, because the English text translation is only a tool–it has no binding force.

Again, we have to apply the Latin word, and the Church’s definition of the word.

All true. The Vespers Hour begins the Office of the day, and this is nothing new, nor is it restricted to the Roman Rite.

If I recall correctly, the hour of First Vespers was traditionally considered 4pm local, irrespective of the geographical location or time of year (although many abbeys and other religious hours actually sing vespers at 5pm). This was long before the previous Pontiff: all he really did was weigh-in to clarify the traditional practice in the face of the recurring question about “anticipated Masses” and such. And even so, the question continues to persist.

Just my supportive :twocents:

 

[agapewolf]

1. Canons are to be interpreted according to the plain meaning of the words–not according to their slang meaning. This is lesson #2 in canon law classes. The author is attempting to apply an anachronistic Southern American slang usage for the word “evening” to canon law–and doing so in England. Slang definitions of words do not apply in canon law.

It presents exactly the same line of reasoning.

THis is your explanation here. Plain meaning. I just stated what the 2 most accepted “plain meanings” of “evening” are. 6 PM, or dark. This is not slang, this is plain meaning.

according to YOUR explanation here, JPII violated this when he assigned it to mean vespers at 4pm. That is not plain meaning.

I’m not arguing for or against here, I agree that 4 PM is a good time for a vigil mass to count and all that. I submit to the church, but you offered an explanation that did not match up to what exists.

 

[FrDavid96]

THis is your explanation here. Plain meaning. I just stated what the 2 most accepted “plain meanings” of “evening” are. 6 PM, or dark. This is not slang, this is plain meaning.

according to YOUR explanation here, JPII violated this when he assigned it to mean vespers at 4pm. That is not plain meaning.

I’m not arguing for or against here, I agree that 4 PM is a good time for a vigil mass to count and all that. I submit to the church, but you offered an explanation that did not match up to what exists.

As I said, it’s not the meaning of the English word “evening” which applies, it is the Church’s definition of the Latin word “vespers” because that’s the word used in canon law.

The Church defines “the time of vespers” as 4 o’clock. That’s the word used in the canon.

I’ve said all along that the time is 4 o’clock.

How is 4 o’clock not the plain meaning of the word “vespers” if that’s what the Church says is the time for “vespers”? You’ve lost me on this one.

 

[agapewolf]

Because canon law says evening. Plain meaning for evening is as I said. plain and simple, thats all.

 

[SMHW]

The Vatican is not calling it Midnight Mass.

Am I correct in saying that the Latin Lectionary does not call it Midnight Mass? That rather the wording “Midnight Mass” is an English (or possibly American?) "translation of "Mass during the night?

 

[FrDavid96]

Am I correct in saying that the Latin Lectionary does not call it Midnight Mass? That rather the wording “Midnight Mass” is an English (or possibly American?) "translation of "Mass during the night?

Could be. I don’t have either the current Latin Sacramentary/Missal or Lectionary.

My Extraordinary Form Missal has only 3 Masses for Christmas:

Ad Primum Missam (the first Mass)
In Nocte (in the night)

Ad Secundum Missam (2nd)
In Aurora (at “dawn” --morning would be ‘matins’)

Ad Tertiam Missam (3rd)
In Die Nativitates Domini (in the day of-the-birth of-theLord)

In any case, the word itself “midnight” refers to a specific time on the clock. So we can’t call a Mass at 10 “Midnight Mass” anymore than we can call a Mass at 8 “11 o’clock Mass”

 

[agapewolf]

In any case, the word itself “midnight” refers to a specific time on the clock. So we can’t call a Mass at 10 “Midnight Mass” anymore than we can call a Mass at 8 “11 o’clock Mass”

And again, in the lectionary, it is called “Mass at midnight”. as I already said earlier:

It’s more than a time of day, which is my point.

My point is, the actual mass readings are collected in the lectionary, called “Midnight Mass”. which is the actual name of the mass being celebrated. Like “Solemnity of…whatever” Midnight mass is referring to MORE than just the time of day.

 

[FrDavid96]

And again, in the lectionary, it is called “Mass at midnight”. as I already said earlier:

Well, if it’s called “Mass at Midnight” that means it refers to a Mass celebrated at 12:00 o’clock A.M.

If a Mass is celebrated at a different hour, other than “Midnight” then the proper text should be used.

As I said earlier, the readings for Christmas can be moved around at the celebrant’s discretion. As long as the Mass uses any of the Christmas readings, that’s fine.

Just because a priest chooses to use the readings from “Midnight Mass” at a Mass which is celebrated at another hour other-than-Midnight, that doesn’t make it “Midnight Mass.”

The readings do not define a Midnight Mass. The word Midnight refers to a time of day, it doesn’t refer to the choice of readings; even though there are proper readings for a Midnight Mass. I think that’s the misunderstanding here. The Midnight Mass readings may be used at a Mass other than a Midnight Mass.

Example: I can use the Corpus Christi readings at a votive Mass for the Eucharist in October. That doesn’t mean that “it is Corpus Christi” (which is in June).

 

[agapewolf]

Well, if it’s called “Mass at Midnight” that means it refers to a Mass celebrated at 12:00 o’clock A.M.

If a Mass is celebrated at a different hour, other than “Midnight” then the proper text should be used.

As I said earlier, the readings for Christmas can be moved around at the celebrant’s discretion. As long as the Mass uses any of the Christmas readings, that’s fine.

Just because a priest chooses to use the readings from “Midnight Mass” at a Mass which is celebrated at another hour other-than-Midnight, that doesn’t make it “Midnight Mass.”

The readings do not define a Midnight Mass. The word Midnight refers to a time of day, it doesn’t refer to the choice of readings; even though there are proper readings for a Midnight Mass. I think that’s the misunderstanding here. The Midnight Mass readings may be used at a Mass other than a Midnight Mass.

Example: I can use the Corpus Christi readings at a votive Mass for the Eucharist in October. That doesn’t mean that “it is Corpus Christi” (which is in June).

Yet again, you are missing the point, or are on purpose trying to argue for the sake of not wanting to seem wrong.

All I’m saying is that it refers to MORE than just “time of day”. I didn’t say it made it so, I said it is labeled as a collection of readings called “mass at midnight”. Turn the page to it in the lectionary and see for yourself.

 

[marleelynn]

one of my cluster parishes has a 3pm mass on Christmas Eve with their children’s choir participating. I wanted to go as early as possible depending on family plans but if that wouldn’t be considered a Vigil mass, I can go 4pm and/or Christmas (different readings)

 

[FrDavid96]

Yet again, you are missing the point, or are on purpose trying to argue for the sake of not wanting to seem wrong.

All I’m saying is that it refers to MORE than just “time of day”. I didn’t say it made it so, I said it is labeled as a collection of readings called “mass at midnight”. Turn the page to it in the lectionary and see for yourself.

No, I’m not arguing for the point of arguing.

The word “Midnight” means 12 o’clock. It means nothing other than 12 o’clock.

When the Lectionary says “Mass at Midnight” the Lectionary means “Mass at Midnight” it doesn’t mean 8 or 10 or 11 o’clock.

Tell me where in the Lectionary that the word “Midnight” means any time other than 12 o’clock. I am reading the Lectionary, and I don’t see it.

I do see where it says that the readings for Mass at Midnight can be read at other Masses–I’ve been saying that repeatedly.

If a Mass is not at Midnight then it isn’t Midnight Mass. It’s that simple.

If a Mass is at 10 o’clock, then it isn’t “Midnight Mass” it’s “10 o’clock Mass”

Just because the readings at a Mass happen to be the same as the readings which appear for Midnight Mass that does not make it a Midnight Mass. Again, Midnight is a time of day. If the Mass is not at that time of day, it is not a Midnight Mass, regardless of what readings are used.

 

[SMHW]

Yet again, you are missing the point, or are on purpose trying to argue for the sake of not wanting to seem wrong.

All I’m saying is that it refers to MORE than just “time of day”. I didn’t say it made it so, I said it is labeled as a collection of readings called “mass at midnight”. Turn the page to it in the lectionary and see for yourself.

I don’t think Father disputes the labeling in the Lectionary. But how could using the Midnight Mass readings force something to be a Midnight Mass?

And while I don’t have a Latin Lectionary handy, I don’t think the Latin Lectionary has “Midnight Mass” readings. I think “Midnight Mass” is unique to English.

 

[FrDavid96]

one of my cluster parishes has a 3pm mass on Christmas Eve with their children’s choir participating. I wanted to go as early as possible depending on family plans but if that wouldn’t be considered a Vigil mass, I can go 4pm and/or Christmas (different readings)

Yes, if you go to a 4 PM Mass, that would “count” for Christmas.

Don’t let the schedule of readings become a distraction. The readings have nothing to do with fulfilling the Holy Day obligation–it’s the time that matters. On Christmas, the readings can be moved around anyway.

 

[FrDavid96]

I don’t think Father disputes the labeling in the Lectionary. But how could using the Midnight Mass readings force something to be a Midnight Mass?

And while I don’t have a Latin Lectionary handy, I don’t think the Latin Lectionary has “Midnight Mass” readings. I think “Midnight Mass” is unique to English.

And that’s exactly the point–the readings can’t “force” something to be a Midnight Mass.

I can use the readings from Midnight Mass at the Christmas Day Mass at 11:00 in the morning. That doesn’t make it “Midnight Mass” because it’s still going to be “the 11 AM Mass”

 

[agapewolf]

Oh for goodness sake, this is one of the silliest conversations.

My point is STILL not being acknowledged…and I never ever said it was forcing something to be something either.

I’m done…please read my posts again becasue I’ll I could do now is repeat myself.

 

[FrDavid96]

Oh for goodness sake, this is one of the silliest conversations.

My point is STILL not being acknowledged…and I never ever said it was forcing something to be something either.

I’m done…please read my posts again becasue I’ll I could do now is repeat myself.

OK. Maybe I’m missing something. I thought that this was your point:

Actually, it still uses the “Mass at Midnight” readings…so it still can be considered midnight mass.

Is that still your point?