Christmas - origin and celebration

[SonofMonica]

I have a question related to Christmas. I was under the impression that Christmas is a Catholic feast day, and I’m wondering why other Christians celebrate the birth of Christ on this particular day, if they are not Catholic. Anyone know?

From what I understand, the word “Christmas” is a shorter form of Cristes Maesse, old English for the “Mass of Christ” which refers to the Feast of the Nativity on the Catholic Church’s calendar for December 25. Further illustrating the grammatical point, Catholics also have a Michaelmas, which means Mass of Michael and refers to the Feast of St. Michael the Archangel, celebrated on September 29.

The Bible does not say to celebrate a Catholic feast day or any holiday based upon the birth of Christ. As far as I know, if you’re not Catholic (or Eastern Orthodox or maybe Anglican), then you pretty much believe that what Christians are supposed to do is all contained in the Bible. So why do most non-Catholic Christians, which would otherwise be opposed to following Catholic tradition, celebrate Christmas? I know they don’t actually go to a Catholic Mass on Christmas, but aren’t they “keeping the feast” in a manner of speaking?

Now, before anyone says “well Christians celebrate Christmas because it is all about the birth of Christ,” I know that Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ. But I’m not interested in learning about the meaning of Christmas. Also, please no discussion of paganism or Christmas trees, or whether it is “okay” to celebrate Christmas. I’m only interested in why non-Catholics do appear to celebrate a Catholic feast day–that of Christmas on December 25, specifically.

This is not a baiting question. I’m just trying to be scholarly, so I’ve posted the question at CARM, too. Maybe I’m completely off base with my research on the history of Christmas being a Catholic feast day–this is one of those things about history that I don’t know too much about. Wonder if anyone, protestant or Catholic, can help with these questions. Thanks in advance.

Sincerely and respectfully,

SonofMonica

 

[choy]

my guess is…

since all these other religions can be traced back to the Catholic Church, they celebrate what Catholics celebrate, unless their founder makes a concious effort to say that Christmas should not be celebrated, for various reasons (not exact date, birthday celebrations forbidden, etc)

 

[SonofMonica]

my guess is…

since all these other religions can be traced back to the Catholic Church, they celebrate what Catholics celebrate, unless their founder makes a concious effort to say that Christmas should not be celebrated, for various reasons (not exact date, birthday celebrations forbidden, etc)

Thanks, that prompts me to add this question: Does anyone know if any non-Catholic Christian faiths/denominations deny that that the celebration of Christmas has its origins in the Catholic Church and its feast days/calendar?

 

[NDfan]

I have a question related to Christmas. I was under the impression that Christmas is a Catholic feast day, and I’m wondering why other Christians celebrate the birth of Christ on this particular day, if they are not Catholic. Anyone know?

From what I understand, the word “Christmas” is a shorter form of Cristes Maesse, old English for the “Mass of Christ” which refers to the Feast of the Nativity on the Catholic Church’s calendar for December 25. Further illustrating the grammatical point, Catholics also have a Michaelmas, which means Mass of Michael and refers to the Feast of St. Michael the Archangel, celebrated on September 29.

The Bible does not say to celebrate a Catholic feast day or any holiday based upon the birth of Christ. As far as I know, if you’re not Catholic (or Eastern Orthodox or maybe Anglican), then you pretty much believe that what Christians are supposed to do is all contained in the Bible. So why do most non-Catholic Christians, which would otherwise be opposed to following Catholic tradition, celebrate Christmas? I know they don’t actually go to a Catholic Mass on Christmas, but aren’t they “keeping the feast” in a manner of speaking?

Now, before anyone says “well Christians celebrate Christmas because it is all about the birth of Christ,” I know that Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ. But I’m not interested in learning about the meaning of Christmas. Also, please no discussion of paganism or Christmas trees, or whether it is “okay” to celebrate Christmas. I’m only interested in why non-Catholics do appear to celebrate a Catholic feast day–that of Christmas on December 25, specifically.

This is not a baiting question. I’m just trying to be scholarly, so I’ve posted the question at CARM, too. Maybe I’m completely off base with my research on the history of Christmas being a Catholic feast day–this is one of those things about history that I don’t know too much about. Wonder if anyone, protestant or Catholic, can help with these questions. Thanks in advance.

Sincerely and respectfully,

SonofMonica

There are feast calendars dating back to the 3rd century that show early Christians celebrating the birth of Christ. This is not isolated to the Roman Catholic church we know today. The churches in the east celebrated it on January 6th while Hippolytus and many other scholars and church fathers actually calculated Jesus birth to be December 25th. Christian churches today outside the Roman Catholic Church don’t view early church fathers as being Roman Catholic thereby separating what they believed from what is believed today. The roots of Christianity are traced back through all church fathers including the Apostles to Christ.

Your theology is a little off when you state that what Christians outside the Roman Catholic Church believe is all contained in the Bible. On matters of faith and salvation that is true but when it comes down to celebrating birthdays your logic is way off. We do know from scripture though that birthdays were celebrated. Job held large feasts for all members of his family on their birthdays every year. Ash wednesday is not a command in scripture either but the elements are very scriptural.

 

[NDfan]

Thanks, that prompts me to add this question: Does anyone know if any non-Catholic Christian faiths/denominations deny that that the celebration of Christmas has its origins in the Catholic Church and its feast days/calendar?

The short answer to that is non-Roman churches see a difference between Catholic and catholic. The word Katholicos simply means universal. So as Christians we all belong to the catholic/universal church of Christ. So of course celebrations that existed in the early church were certainly catholic.

 

[choy]

Thanks, that prompts me to add this question: Does anyone know if any non-Catholic Christian faiths/denominations deny that that the celebration of Christmas has its origins in the Catholic Church and its feast days/calendar?

the most popular reason i think Protestant or Restorationist sects reject the celebration of Christmas is the fact that it was instituted to replace a pagan holiday. they feel that having pagan roots means Christmas is pagan. so they believe the origin is not Catholic but pagan

 

[SonofMonica]

There are feast calendars dating back to the 3rd century that show early Christians celebrating the birth of Christ. This is not isolated to the Roman Catholic church we know today.

Who made the feast calendars, and who had the authority to designate the days as feasts? What Church was it and how does it differ from the Catholic Church “we know today?” Sources?

The churches in the east celebrated it on January 6th while Hippolytus and many other scholars and church fathers actually calculated Jesus birth to be December 25th.

Okay. Other, more recent scholars have determined that December 25 is not even close to the birth of Christ. The question remains why non-Catholics celebrate Christ’s birthday on this date, and why they call it Christmas whenever they do not celebrate mass at all.

Christian churches today outside the Roman Catholic Church don’t view early church fathers as being Roman Catholic thereby separating what they believed from what is believed today. The roots of Christianity are traced back through all church fathers including the Apostles to Christ.

Nor does the Catholic Church consider all Church fathers to be “Roman” Catholic. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.

Your theology is a little off when you state that what Christians outside the Roman Catholic Church believe is all contained in the Bible. On matters of faith and salvation that is true but when it comes down to celebrating birthdays your logic is way off.

I know, E.O., Anglicans, etc. accept Sacred Tradition, more or less, to a point and in varying degrees and ways. That wasn’t the point. The point is that the celebration of Christmas or “Mass of Christ” on December 25, isn’t biblical, in the strictest sense of the word–this particular tradition isn’t found in the Bible.

We do know from scripture though that birthdays were celebrated. Job held large feasts for all members of his family on their birthdays every year. Ash wednesday is not a command in scripture either but the elements are very scriptural.

Okay, but I stated in my original question that I’m not interested in whether it’s “okay” to celebrate Christmas. I’m asking why non-Catholics celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25, and why they call it “Christmas” when they don’t go to mass?

 

[NDfan]

the most popular reason i think Protestant or Restorationist sects reject the celebration of Christmas is the fact that it was instituted to replace a pagan holiday. they feel that having pagan roots means Christmas is pagan. so they believe the origin is not Catholic but pagan

That’s completely false. Restorationists most definitely celebrate Christmas. I should know I belong to a large restoration church. Most Protestant denominations celebrate Christmas as well including Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, AME, etc. etc.

Where you start to get into the whole “I don’t celebrate Christmas because of Pagan roots” is isolated more to the JWs and some smaller churches like Hebrew Pentacostals. The funny thing is JWs used to celebrate Christmas and would hand out their Bibles as gifts. Talk about being hypocritical.

 

[SonofMonica]

The short answer to that is non-Roman churches see a difference between Catholic and catholic. The word Katholicos simply means universal. So as Christians we all belong to the catholic/universal church of Christ. So of course celebrations that existed in the early church were certainly catholic.

How do you know that the Catholic Church, as it exists today, is not the early Church? In otherwords, how do you define “early?” Early from whose perspective? What if we are all early Christians? If we are not, when did the “early” period stop? Sources?

 

[choy]

That’s completely false. Restorationists most definitely celebrate Christmas. I should know I belong to a large restoration church. Most Protestant denominations celebrate Christmas as well including Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, AME, etc. etc.

Where you start to get into the whole “I don’t celebrate Christmas because of Pagan roots” is isolated more to the JWs and some smaller churches like Hebrew Pentacostals. The funny thing is JWs used to celebrate Christmas and would hand out their Bibles as gifts. Talk about being hypocritical.

one restorationist Church i know doesn’t and this is because they believe Christmas to be a pagan celebration

i’m not saying ALL protestants and ALL restorationists do not celebrate Christmas. i’m saying that for those who do not, the reasons are those i posted

 

[SonofMonica]

That’s completely false. Restorationists most definitely celebrate Christmas. I should know I belong to a large restoration church. Most Protestant denominations celebrate Christmas as well including Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, AME, etc. etc.

Where you start to get into the whole “I don’t celebrate Christmas because of Pagan roots” is isolated more to the JWs and some smaller churches like Hebrew Pentacostals. The funny thing is JWs used to celebrate Christmas and would hand out their Bibles as gifts. Talk about being hypocritical.

Yes, let’s please avoid the pagan-talk. I am not interested in those questions. I wanna keep the thread on topic.

So, out of curiosity and because I think it would help answer my original questions - do Restorationist Christians celebrate something called “Mass” every Sunday? If not, why celebrate Christmas in particular? (Or do you dispute that Christmas means “Mass of Christ?”)

To be clear, I am not meaning to imply that you have no “right” to celebrate Christmas or Christ’s birth just because you are not Catholic, so please don’t take it the wrong way. This is not intended to be a baiting thread.

 

[NDfan]

Who made the feast calendars, and who had the authority to designate the days as feasts? What Church was it and how does it differ from the Catholic Church “we know today?” Sources?

Some of the earliest Christian writings on Christmas were discovered in North Africa that show December 25th as the day. As far as who had authority that’s not a valid question. Scripture is the only authority in that context. Non-Roman Catholic churches don’t view celebrating Christmas as a command from scripture which is why you will find some keeping the feasts and others do not.

Okay. Other, more recent scholars have determined that December 25 is not even close to the birth of Christ. The question remains why non-Catholics celebrate Christ’s birthday on this date, and why they call it Christmas whenever they do not celebrate mass at all.

Well more recent scholars don’t speak for everyone. There are plenty of reasons to think Christ’s birthday was the 25th. I’m sure you’ve seen all the calculations. I tend to think the recent scholars go out of their way to show Christ wasn’t born on the 25th to derail Christmas. As far as mass this term is applied to the ending of many feast days.

Nor does the Catholic Church consider all Church fathers to be “Roman” Catholic. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.

Well your line of questioning would imply that you do given you are questioning why non-Roman Catholic Christians celebrate Christmas when it’s a Roman Catholic Feast. History shows it as being an early Christian feast so many churches today continue that tradition and many don’t.

I know, E.O., Anglicans, etc. accept Sacred Tradition, more or less, to a point and in varying degrees and ways. That wasn’t the point. The point is that the celebration of Christmas or “Mass of Christ” on December 25, isn’t biblical, in the strictest sense of the word–this particular tradition isn’t found in the Bible.

True but that’s where I think you may misunderstand the views of scripture for non-Roman Catholic churches.

Okay, but I stated in my original question that I’m not interested in whether it’s “okay” to celebrate Christmas. I’m asking why non-Catholics celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25, and why they call it “Christmas” when they don’t go to mass?

The word mass did not have the meaning that it does today. Most feast days end in mas. The mass in Roman Catholic theology and I believe Greek theology refers to the last supper. But that term was not developed until 1038. The word Christmas existed well before that and just referred to the feast of Christ. Just like the feast of Michael you referred to. You don’t have Mass for Michael but you celebrate his feast day.

 

[NDfan]

How do you know that the Catholic Church, as it exists today, is not the early Church? In otherwords, how do you define “early?” Early from whose perspective? What if we are all early Christians? If we are not, when did the “early” period stop? Sources?

The church never referred to itself as the Roman Catholic church. Ignatius coined the term Katholicos to describe the church of Christ. But early Christians didn’t call themselves Roman Catholic. They were just called Christians who united together formed the universal church of Christ. In that context you and I are part of the catholic church. The term Roman Catholic was developed more after the east/west schism. Actually the church initially referred to itself as Orthodox in it’s beliefs, meaning it held firmly to scripture, but catholic in nature. After the schism the terms Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox were employed as more of a label.

 

[NDfan]

one restorationist Church i know doesn’t and this is because they believe Christmas to be a pagan celebration

i’m not saying ALL protestants and ALL restorationists do not celebrate Christmas. i’m saying that for those who do not, the reasons are those i posted

I agree with you most that I meet say the same thing. It’s the whole thing “Do you know how paganistic Christmas is and the tree and yule log???” I hear that more from JWs but as I noted earlier JWs used to celebrate Christmas. Go figure.

 

[AnAtheist]

Who made the feast calendars, and who had the authority to designate the days as feasts? What Church was it and how does it differ from the Catholic Church “we know today?”

Using the Julian calendar the winter solstice is on the 25th Dec, and that was celebrated throughout the Roman Empire and elsewhere. The re-birth of the sun. So that day was a holyday anyway already.

 

[SonofMonica]

As far as mass this term is applied to the ending of many feast days.

But that’s precisely because a Mass was held on that day to commemorate the subject of the feast, was it not? If you disagree, I’d like one source that says otherwise.

Well your line of questioning would imply that you do given you are questioning why non-Roman Catholic Christians celebrate Christmas when it’s a Roman Catholic Feast.

It’s a Catholic feast. “Roman” Catholic is a term coined by Anglican protestants in the sixteenth century to describe the Church they broke away from while still attempting to imply that they were part of the universal church as a branch. I understand why Anglicans would want to “keep the feast,” as it were. I am interested in why a church that does not have a Mass would keep the feast of Christmas, particularly.

The word mass did not have the meaning that it does today. Most feast days end in mas. The mass in Roman Catholic theology and I believe Greek theology refers to the last supper. But that term was not developed until 1038. The word Christmas existed well before that and just referred to the feast of Christ. Just like the feast of Michael you referred to. You don’t have Mass for Michael but you celebrate his feast day.

The name Mass (missa) applies to the Eucharistic service in the Latin rites only. Neither in Latin nor in Greek has it ever been applied to any Eastern rite. For them the corresponding word is Liturgy (liturgia). It is a mistake that leads to confusion, and a scientific inexactitude, to speak of any Eastern Liturgy as a Mass.

Moreover, how can you say that the term was invented in 1038, and then say that Christmas preceded it? Occasionally the word “mass” is shortened to “mas” and is transferred to the feast-day. The feast of St. Martin, for instance, is called Missa Saint Martini. It is from this use that the German Mess, Messtag, and the word “mas” and so on are derived.

But how in the world are you saying that “mass” was used to denote a feast day apart from the fact that Mass (the Holy Eucharist) as used in Catholic theology, was celebrated on that day? I’d like to see one source that “mass” or “Christmas” was used in a Christian context before the Holy Eucharist or the Liturgy of any church began to be called the “Mass.”

 

[NDfan]

Yes, let’s please avoid the pagan-talk. I am not interested in those questions. I wanna keep the thread on topic.

So, out of curiosity and because I think it would help answer my original questions - do Restorationist Christians celebrate something called “Mass” every Sunday? If not, why celebrate Christmas in particular? (Or do you dispute that Christmas means “Mass of Christ?”)

To be clear, I am not meaning to imply that you have no “right” to celebrate Christmas or Christ’s birth just because you are not Catholic, so please don’t take it the wrong way. This is not intended to be a baiting thread.

You misunderstand the use of the word mass. The suffix 'mas was appended to all feast days in Christianity. The word mass itself simply means dismissal and was the word used when church let out. As in you are dismissed now go and spead the word. The word maesse is an english word meaning festival or feast day. Hence Christmas means the Festival or Feast Day of Christ. It has nothing to do with Eucharist.

In 1038 the term mass was more isolated to refer to the last supper and the celebration of the Eucharist. The early churches never referred to church gathering as mass. It was always called worship which included observance of the Lord’s Supper. This is consistent with what we read in the Didache which is believed to have come from the Apostles.

 

[SonofMonica]

You misunderstand the use of the word mass.

No, I don’t. It refers to the Holy Mass.

The suffix 'mas was appended to all feast days in Christianity.

No, it wasn’t.

The word mass itself simply means dismissal and was the word used when church let out. As in you are dismissed now go and spead the word.

This is true. It occurs at every Eucharistic celebration of the Catholic Church in the Latin rite, to this day. It has nothing to do with any “early” church other than the Latin Church, or the “Roman” Catholic Church. It is not a Greek term in the slightest and is not part of their liturgy.

The word maesse is an english word meaning festival or feast day. Hence Christmas means the Festival or Feast Day of Christ. It has nothing to do with Eucharist.

Source?

In 1038 the term mass was more isolated to refer to the last supper and the celebration of the Eucharist. The early churches never referred to church gathering as mass. It was always called worship which included observance of the Lord’s Supper. This is consistent with what we read in the Didache which is believed to have come from the Apostles.

That is completely false. The first recorded use of the words “Cristes mæsse” was in 1038. But mæsse, meaning Mass, has always referred to the Holy Mass, which has always included the celebration of the Eucharist. Nice try though. It is true the early churches did not refer to a church gathering as the mass, but that does not prove your point in the slightest, as the early churches did not speak English and did not use the term Christmas.

 

[NDfan]

But that’s precisely because a Mass was held on that day to commemorate the subject of the feast, was it not? If you disagree, I’d like one source that says otherwise.

I don’t have to disagree you are simply wrong on that account. A mass may have been held in the Roman Catholic Church to commemorate the feast day. But the suffix 'mas was not applied to feast days BECAUSE a mass was performed. You have your history backwards here. As stated before the suffix 'mas is an english word which means precisely feast day or festival. So any feast day or festival would simply be a celebration for the person referred to.

It’s a Catholic feast. “Roman” Catholic is a term coined by Anglican protestants in the sixteenth century to describe the Church they broke away from while still attempting to imply that they were part of the universal church as a branch. I understand why Anglicans would want to “keep the feast,” as it were. I am interested in why a church that does not have a Mass would keep the feast of Christmas, particularly.

No it’s not a Roman Catholic Feast. Again you are incorrect here. Christmas does not mean performing the Roman Catholic Mass for Christ. It has nothing to do with Eucharist at all. It’s simply celebrating the person the feast is referring. Maesse is an old english word meaning feast day or festival.

The name Mass (missa) applies to the Eucharistic service in the Latin rites only. Neither in Latin nor in Greek has it ever been applied to any Eastern rite. For them the corresponding word is Liturgy (liturgia). It is a mistake that leads to confusion, and a scientific inexactitude, to speak of any Eastern Liturgy as a Mass.

You are confusing terms here terribly. Missa is a Latin word which simply means dismissal. It was the word used at the end of church service meaning you are dismissed. In 1038 it was applied to the Eucharistic celebration.

The suffix 'mas is a completely different term and comes from the English word maesse. That’s different from the Latin word missa. This is where you are mixing your terms.

Moreover, how can you say that the term was invented in 1038, and then say that Christmas preceded it? Occasionally the word “mass” is shortened to “mas” and is transferred to the feast-day. The feast of St. Martin, for instance, is called Missa Saint Martini. It is from this use that the German Mess, Messtag, and the word “mas” and so on are derived.

Again the use of the word maesse or suffix 'mas pre-dates the use of the word missa when referring to a feast day. The term missa was applied to the eucharist in 1038. No disrespect but you need to study church history a little more closely.

Christmas means the maesse or Festival or Feast day of Christ. The word Mass as it is applied to church means the celebration of the eucharist. They are 2 different terms.

But how in the world are you saying that “mass” was used to denote a feast day apart from the fact that Mass (the Holy Eucharist) as used in Catholic theology, was celebrated on that day? I’d like to see one source that “mass” or “Christmas” was used in a Christian context before the Holy Eucharist or the Liturgy of any church began to be called the “Mass.”

All feast days end with the suffix 'mas which is the english word maesse. You need to realize feast days are not just Christian celebrations. Many religions have feast days which employ the use of the term maesse. The Latin word Missa or Mass is a completely different term and is used in Roman Catholic Theology to refer to Eucharist. You are mixing the 2 which is why your question now makes more sense. You are wondering why non-Roman Catholic Christians celebrate Christmas because they don’t celebrate the Mass. That’s an invalid question.

 

[SonofMonica]

All feast days end with the suffix 'mas which is the english word maesse. You need to realize feast days are not just Christian celebrations. Many religions have feast days which employ the use of the term maesse. The Latin word Missa or Mass is a completely different term and is used in Roman Catholic Theology to refer to Eucharist. You are mixing the 2 which is why your question now makes more sense. You are wondering why non-Roman Catholic Christians celebrate Christmas because they don’t celebrate the Mass. That’s an invalid question.

Give me one reputable source for this, so that I may correct myself with something other than taking your word for it, then. I’ve tried google, so please don’t ask me to google it. I want to know where you’ve gotten this idea or information–truly. I’m particularly interested in how any religion used an English word for feast day before English even existed. I’m awaiting a source.