Christmas - origin and celebration

[NDfan]

No, I don’t. It refers to the Holy Mass.

No it does not. The word missa is latin meaning dismissal. It was adopted to refer to the sacrifice of the eucharist. That was not the original use of the word.

No, it wasn’t.

No disrespect here SOM but you are so wrong. All feast days whether they be Christian or non Christian end with 'mas which is english for festival or feast day. As soon as you say the feast day of Michael, Jesus, John the Baptist etc. etc. you automatically employ the use of the term maesse which is the suffix 'mas. That’s the word that defines fesitval.

This is true. It occurs at every Eucharistic celebration of the Catholic Church in the Latin rite, to this day. It has nothing to do with any “early” church other than the Latin Church, or the “Roman” Catholic Church. It is not a Greek term in the slightest and is not part of their liturgy.

I never said it was a Greek term. Are you even reading my posts I stated outright that it was a latin term. Maesse on the other hand is English and has no relation to the term missa.

Source?

Look up the etymology of the word 'mas and you will find that it is derived from the english word maesse. Then take a look at Christian feast days and any other feast days celebrated by non-Christians. In the Roman Catholic church when a feast day “maesse” is celebrated, a Mass or missa is said for that maesse. But that doesn’t mean all Christian churches have to celebrate it that way.

That is completely false. The first recorded use of the words “Cristes mæsse” was in 1038. But mæsse, meaning Mass, has always referred to the Holy Mass, which has always included the celebration of the Eucharist. Nice try though. It is true the early churches did not refer to a church gathering as the mass, but that does not prove your point in the slightest, as the early churches did not speak English and did not use the term Christmas.

Don’t give me the nice try though rubish. You need to study church history to understand completely the use of the word mass. It’s obvious you do not so the conversation becomes pointless. Maesse does not mean Mass. They are 2 different words. One is english and one is latin. Cristes maesse means the festival or feast day of Christ. Not the Holy Mass of Christ.

 

[SonofMonica]

All feast days whether they be Christian or non Christian end with 'mas which is english for festival or feast day.

I’m asking you for a source, once again, for this assertion.

Don’t give me the nice try though rubish. You need to study church history to understand completely the use of the word mass. It’s obvious you do not so the conversation becomes pointless. Maesse does not mean Mass. They are 2 different words. One is english and one is latin. Cristes maesse means the festival or feast day of Christ. Not the Holy Mass of Christ.

Give me one reputable source for this assertion, so that I may correct myself with something other than taking your word for it, then. How can I study Church history if I don’t know where to look? Until you provide me with a source that contradicts everything I have ever read about the subject, I am forced to believe that you are just talking. I’ve asked many times, now.

 

[NDfan]

Give me one reputable source for this, so that I may correct myself with something other than taking your word for it, then. I’ve tried google, so please don’t ask me to google it. I want to know where you’ve gotten this idea or information–truly. I’m particularly interested in how any religion used an English word for feast day before English even existed. I’m awaiting a source.

Again you are misunderstanding the meaning of my post. I never stated that all religions use the word maesse. I stated that the word maesse is the old english word meaning festival or feast day. Christians and non-Christians have feast days or festivals for many people. That’s different from Mass which relates to the Eucharist.

As far as sources I don’t use google. I’ve studied church history, considered the priesthood at one time, attended Bible college etc. etc. I’m speaking from my education period. I’m sure I can dig out text books and cite a source for you.

But let’s take an example of one feast day so I can make my point. Let’s take the feast or festival of the Epiphany which I believe is celebrated around January 6th. We would not say that is is the Mass or Missa of the Epiphany since the word Missa/Mass is Latin for dismissal. We would say the Maesse of the Epiphany. Maesse meaning feast day or festival. Some festival days use the suffix 'mas as their title but in either case the word in which it refers to is the English word Maesse. In the Roman Catholic church feast days or maesse is observed by performing a mass or missa.

In the end it doesn’t appear that any answer is going to satisfy you because you have the impression that Christmas simply means performing the Latin word missa. You dismiss the fact that Christmas with the suffix 'mas means feast day or festival of Christ and can be celebrated by anyone wishing to observe the birth of Christ.

PEACE

 

[SonofMonica]

Again you are misunderstanding the meaning of my post. I never stated that all religions use the word maesse. I stated that the word maesse is the old english word meaning festival or feast day. Christians and non-Christians have feast days or festivals for many people. That’s different from Mass which relates to the Eucharist.

As far as sources I don’t use google. I’ve studied church history, considered the priesthood at one time, attended Bible college etc. etc. I’m speaking from my education period. I’m sure I can dig out text books and cite a source for you.

But let’s take an example of one feast day so I can make my point. Let’s take the feast or festival of the Epiphany which I believe is celebrated around January 6th. We would not say that is is the Mass or Missa of the Epiphany since the word Missa/Mass is Latin for dismissal. We would say the Maesse of the Epiphany. Maesse meaning feast day or festival. Some festival days use the suffix 'mas as their title but in either case the word in which it refers to is the English word Maesse. In the Roman Catholic church feast days or maesse is observed by performing a mass or missa.

In the end it doesn’t appear that any answer is going to satisfy you because you have the impression that Christmas simply means performing the Latin word missa. You dismiss the fact that Christmas with the suffix 'mas means feast day or festival of Christ and can be celebrated by anyone wishing to observe the birth of Christ.

PEACE

No, I understand your post perfectly. The rub is, I don’t believe you because it contradicts every source I’ve ever read, and my common sense. The reason that your answer does not satisfy me is not because I have the wrong impression or simply dismiss what you claim to be facts, but because you have given me no evidence which would tend to convince me to change my impression or that would seem to indicate that the so-called “facts” you are asserting are actually true. So unless you can give me the name of any source whatsoever, I will assume you have been wasting my time.

For instance, show me something that contradicts this: spotlight-online.de/language/todays-question/the-word-christmas-comes-from-the-old-english-cristes-maesse-meaning-the-fe

 

[NDfan]

I’m asking you for a source, once again, for this assertion.

I simply don’t understand this request. I can’t provide a source for you which shows that feast days use 'mas. It’s simply an understanding of the etymology of the word. Try looking in the dictionary for starters.

Give me one reputable source for this assertion, so that I may correct myself with something other than taking your word for it, then. How can I study Church history if I don’t know where to look? Until you provide me with a source that contradicts everything I have ever read about the subject, I am forced to believe that you are just talking. I’ve asked many times, now.

I don’t just talk for the sake of talking. Study Systematic Theology. Study Latin Greek and English ad nauseum so you can understand the origins of words.

We’re talking here about a simple word Christmas and what it means and why Non-Roman Catholic Christians celebrate it.

Let me ask you a simple question. What are we celebrating on Christmas? The birth of Christ correct? The birth of Christ is noted as the feast day of Christ or in old english ‘Cristes maesse’ meaning feast day or festival of Christ. Simple etymology. However one celebrates that feast, it has nothing to do with the the Holy Mass. You go to a Holy Mass as part of the celebration of the maesse of Christ. The etymology of the word Christmas is Christ with the suffix of 'mas. The suffix 'mas refers to the word maesse not the Latin word Mass.

I’m done with this thread. Too much time.

Here’s the bottom line for you for whatever it’s worth. I celebrate Christmas because it’s the day we observe as the birth date of Christ whether it’s the correct date or not. I don’t have to go to a Roman Catholic Mass to celebrate it nor is the celebration of the birth of Christ strictly confined to a Holy Mass.

Peace be with you.

 

[SonofMonica]

I simply don’t understand this request. I can’t provide a source for you which shows that feast days use 'mas. It’s simply an understanding of the etymology of the word. Try looking in the dictionary for starters.

I don’t just talk for the sake of talking. Study Systematic Theology. Study Latin Greek and English ad nauseum so you can understand the origins of words.

We’re talking here about a simple word Christmas and what it means and why Non-Roman Catholic Christians celebrate it.

Let me ask you a simple question. What are we celebrating on Christmas? The birth of Christ correct? The birth of Christ is noted as the feast day of Christ or in old english ‘Cristes maesse’ meaning feast day or festival of Christ. Simple etymology. However one celebrates that feast, it has nothing to do with the the Holy Mass. You go to a Holy Mass as part of the celebration of the maesse of Christ. The etymology of the word Christmas is Christ with the suffix of 'mas. The suffix 'mas refers to the word maesse not the Latin word Mass.

I’m done with this thread. Too much time.

Here’s the bottom line for you for whatever it’s worth. I celebrate Christmas because it’s the day we observe as the birth date of Christ whether it’s the correct date or not. I don’t have to go to a Roman Catholic Mass to celebrate it nor is the celebration of the birth of Christ strictly confined to a Holy Mass.

Peace be with you.

The request is painstakingly simple: I am asking you for any document or the name of any document or the location of any document that states that the Old English word maesse is not derived from the latin word missa, the same way that the word mass is. In other words, I claim, as does the Catholic Encyclopedia, that Missa = Maesse = Mass. I am asking you for a source that indicates something contrary to that.

I respect your celebration of Christmas. I have previously indicated to you that this thread is not meant to imply that you have no right to celebrate Christmas without going to a Catholic Mass or that the only way you can celebrate Christ’s birth is by going to Mass.

But you are taking my request for a source to mean that I am personally attacking you or implying that your celebration of Christmas is not valid. I assure you that I am not doing that. I am asking you for a source which states something contrary to my sources, which state that Maesee means “Mass” as in the Holy Mass. Any source will do.

For example, Wikipedia says:

The word Christmas originated as a compound meaning “Christ’s Mass”. It is derived from the Middle English Christemasse and Old English Cristes mæsse, a phrase first recorded in 1038. “Cristes” is from Greek Christos and “mæsse” is from Latin missa (the holy mass).

As its source, Wikipedia names the Catholic Encyclopedia article “Christmas” located at newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

All I’m asking you to do is name a source. You made the assertion. The onus is upon you to back it up.

 

[SonofMonica]

And so I am not being accused of placing too much burden on you, I have done as you suggested and looked in the dictionary, for starters. Here’s what I’ve found:

Here’s what Webster’s says:

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Christ·mas (kris′məs)

noun

1. a holiday on Dec. 25 celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ
   also Christmas Day
2. Christmastime

Etymology: ME Cristemas < OE Cristesmæsse: see Christ & Mass

---

Mar·tin·mas (märt′'n məs)

noun
Saint Martin’s day, a church festival held on Nov. 11

Etymology: ME Martinmasse: see Martin & Mass

---

Michael·mas (mik′əl məs)

noun
the feast of the archangel Michael, September 29

Etymology: ME Mighelmesse < OE Michaeles mæsse: see Michael & Mass

---

Mass (mas)

noun

1. the Roman Catholic Eucharistic rite consisting of prayers and ceremonies centered on the consecration of bread and wine as a real though mystical reenactment of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross: with differing doctrinal interpretations, the term has sometimes been used of the Eucharistic rite of other Churches
2. a musical setting for certain parts of this rite

Etymology: ME masse < OE mæsse < LL(Ec) missa, mass, lit., dismissal, orig. pp. of L mittere, to dismiss < the words said by the priest ite, missa est (contio), go, (the meeting) is dismissed