Christmas question

  • Thread starter Thread starter Little_Me
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Little_Me

Guest
Why do we celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December? I was having a conversation in which the topic arose and someone said that the Church made it up. For sure there must be more to it than that.

Why do we celebrate Christmas at all?

I remember a program on EWTN a few years back where an astronomer showed that the Star of Bethlehem correlated to an astronomical event dating back to Jesus’s birth which also was around the 25th. Does anyone remember this show and what the guy’s name was? Maybe he had a book or video?
 
I always thought it was purposely chosen on the date of a major Roman Holiday so as to say figuratively that “The Way of Christ trumps the old ways”. I thought it was like this for many major Church holidays. But that’s just my opinion.

But celebrating the Birth of our Savior is obviously something that’s logical. Why not celebrate the most important Birth in human history?
 
Little_Me said:
Why do we celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December? I was having a conversation in which the topic arose and someone said that the Church made it up. For sure there must be more to it than that.
Click to expand...
Actually, the Church extrapolates that Jesus must have been born on December 25th, because the Angel came to Mary on March 25, and nine months after March 25 is of course December 25th.
Why do we celebrate Christmas at all?
Click to expand...
Because it is the first time that anyone ever saw the face of God in the flesh. 🙂
 
jmcrae said:
Actually, the Church extrapolates that Jesus must have been born on December 25th, because the Angel came to Mary on March 25, and nine months after March 25 is of course December 25th.

Because it is the first time that anyone ever saw the face of God in the flesh. 🙂
Click to expand...
excellent, and I figured the latter. How do we know the date the angel came to Mary?
 
Little_Me said:
excellent, and I figured the latter. How do we know the date the angel came to Mary?
Click to expand...
Jewish tradition suggests that Prophets are conceived and die on the same day. Since Jesus died on Good Friday which is right around the turn of Spring, 9 months later would be December 25, right after the turn of Winter.
 
See:

bethlehemstar.net/

Star of Bethlehem Rick Larson

View trailor on youtube:

youtube.com/watch?v=venqYheEqic

Using Kepler’s Laws of Planetary Motion, a NASA computer program is able to calculate the positions of stars and planets forward into the future and back into the past.

December 25 is the star date (in Jerusalem) where the Bethlehem Star stopped (went into retrograde motion) indicating to the Magi where the child King, the King of Israel was.

The star got them to Jerusalem, where logically the Magi went to the palace of the current king, King Herod, asking to see the baby King.

Kepler’s Laws, when combined with Sacred Scripture text also star dates Christ’s death, April 3, '33. Because Jewish Passover is a floating holiday calculated on the Lunar calendar (moon), Passover rarely lands on the Sabbath (Saturday).

amazon.com/Star-Bethlehem-Frederick-Larson/dp/B000UAE7IQ
 
jmcrae said:
Actually, the Church extrapolates that Jesus must have been born on December 25th, because the Angel came to Mary on March 25, and nine months after March 25 is of course December 25th.
Click to expand...
It’s really in reverse. The date of the commemoration of the Annunciation was extrapolated from that of Christmas.
 
I forgot to add, Larson says in the video that on Dec 25, when the Magi found the King of the Jews, they were sent by King Herod in the direction of Bethlehem (the town in which it was foretold that He would be born in).

King Herod kills the innocents out to 2 years of age, indicating that Jesus may have been a toddler by the time the Magi found Mary, Joseph and Jesus.

Matthew’s Gospel says:

"He (Herod) sent them (Magi / Magus) to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search diligently for the child. When you have found him, bring me word, that I too may go and do him homage.” After their audience with the king they set out.

And behold, the star that they had seen at its rising preceded them, until it came and stopped over the place where the child was. They were overjoyed at seeing the star, and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary His mother.

The Magi entered a house, not an animal stable. And, where the star stopped, may not have been at Bethlehem.
 
Barbkw said:
See:

bethlehemstar.net/

Star of Bethlehem Rick Larson

View trailor on youtube:

youtube.com/watch?v=venqYheEqic

Using Kepler’s Laws of Planetary Motion, a NASA computer program is able to calculate the positions of stars and planets forward into the future and back into the past.

December 25 is the star date (in Jerusalem) where the Bethlehem Star stopped (went into retrograde motion) indicating to the Magi where the child King, the King of Israel was.

The star got them to Jerusalem, where logically the Magi went to the palace of the current king, King Herod, asking to see the baby King.

Kepler’s Laws, when combined with Sacred Scripture text also star dates Christ’s death, April 3, '33. Because Jewish Passover is a floating holiday calculated on the Lunar calendar (moon), Passover rarely lands on the Sabbath (Saturday).

amazon.com/Star-Bethlehem-Frederick-Larson/dp/B000UAE7IQ
Click to expand...
Have you ever tried to determine your position by gazing at one or more stars? Lets assume the Magi had an Astrolabe and could measure the angle of a known star with some accuracy, without a Chronometer their measurement would not allow them to determine a geographical position. Using an Astrolabe, an unknown indicator star, The Star of Bethlehem, and a few known stars surrounding the unknown, the date and some knowledge of their immediate geographical region they might triangulate a location within tens of miles at best. Maybe they could have found Jerusalem that way, I don’t know but I have some doubts. And then there is the problem of finding a non-descript couple a few miles away in Bethlehem who had taken shelter in a stable or grotto, I just don’t know but fortunately I’m not required to believe those details only that Jesus was born.
 
As I understand the discussion of the star of Bethleham, the country and people most likely to have been able to read the stars, were the Zoroastrian priests from Persia Babylon. Where Daniel had been held captive.

Until Larson’s video, the star of Bethlehem was and wasn’t “real” to me. A star leads, a star stops. O.K. God’s in charge of those miracles, and I left it at that.

However today, we are able to match scientific laws with Scripture.

I’d highly recommend watching the video. It’s quite amazing.
 
I’ve always been taught that December 25 was picked to commemorate Jesus’ birth because it was a Roman holiday and instead of the Day of the Sun we celebrate the Day of the Son. And I too have understood the date of Annunciation as having been determined based on December 25 and not the other way round.

As for the star, the Gospels speak of it appearing at the moment of Jesus’ birth, not months ahead of time so if the Magi left home when it appeared (camels were already laden and provisions were in the fridge because people always drop by during the holidays :D), odds are pretty good that they didn’t show up at the stable 2 weeks later.
 
*“As for the star, the Gospels speak of it appearing at the moment of Jesus’ birth, not months ahead of time so if the Magi…” *

Interesting discussion:thumbsup:

Please post the Gospel accounts that you are referring to.
 
The fact that there were sheep in the fields has lead some to say that Christ may have been born in the spring.

It also appears that December 25th was chosen not because it was the date of His birth, or because it was believed to be the date of His birth, but because it effectively trumped a pagan holiday/holy day.

None of which means that He was not born on the 25th of December. Only that it is the day we celebrate His birth.
 
Barbkw said:
As I understand the discussion of the star of Bethleham, the country and people most likely to have been able to read the stars, were the Zoroastrian priests from Persia Babylon. Where Daniel had been held captive.

Until Larson’s video, the star of Bethlehem was and wasn’t “real” to me. A star leads, a star stops. O.K. God’s in charge of those miracles, and I left it at that.

However today, we are able to match scientific laws with Scripture.

I’d highly recommend watching the video. It’s quite amazing.
Click to expand...
No doubt they could “read” the stars but there are mathematical limits on how accurately a person can triangulate a position using stars, especially without a chronometer. Remember, even though the stars are light years away and appear stationary, the Earth is moving so without an accurate timepiece location is very difficult to establish.

I’d venture they knew enough about astronomy that at any given time of year they could head toward a certain star or cluster and find Jerusalem or any number of known destinations. These were experts at navigating the desert.

I’ve never heard of a star going retrograde, but I’m certainly ready to believe they witnessed a supernova.
 
Phemie said:
I’ve always been taught that December 25 was picked to commemorate Jesus’ birth because it was a Roman holiday and instead of the Day of the Sun we celebrate the Day of the Son. And I too have understood the date of Annunciation as having been determined based on December 25 and not the other way round.
Click to expand...
The Annunciation was actually celebrated universally by the Church for at least two centuries (I’m going by memory here) before the celebration of Christmas became universal.
As for the star, the Gospels speak of it appearing at the moment of Jesus’ birth, not months ahead of time so if the Magi left home when it appeared (camels were already laden and provisions were in the fridge because people always drop by during the holidays :D), odds are pretty good that they didn’t show up at the stable 2 weeks later.
Click to expand...
At five miles an hour, traveling for ten hours a day, they could not have made it from Baghdad to Bethlehem in fewer than 12 days. Given that they detoured to Jerusalem and probably stayed there for at least a day or so, your estimate of two weeks is actually pretty good. 🙂
 
I have a friend who insists that December 25 was a pagan holiday and Jesus wasn’t born that day, but in the spring, and refuses to celebrate Christmas.

I don’t know if that was His actual birthday. I don’t think it matters. As long as we celebrate His birth, and do so with Him in our hearts, with thankfulness to God for our Savior’s birth.

As I understand it, Christmas was never a very big holiday until just recently (the past 300 years or so).
 
jmcrae said:
At five miles an hour, traveling for ten hours a day, they could not have made it from Baghdad to Bethlehem in fewer than 12 days. Given that they detoured to Jerusalem and probably stayed there for at least a day or so, your estimate of two weeks is actually pretty good. 🙂
Click to expand...
They were good, I’ll give 'em that. I get lost even with a GPS!😉
 
I thought I might add a statement about sheep either being or not being in the fields.

Jewish shephards would only have had the fields surrounding Jerusalem to keep the sheep that produced the lambs for Passover. Lambs numbering in the tens of thousands were needed each year for sacrifice.

Winter nights in Jerusalem get down to a freezing 40F 😃

In my state, we call 40F in winter a heat wave.

Even in cold cold states, sheep are sheared bald early in the Spring prior to the last freezing temperatures.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top