Christmas Squabble. Am I a jerk?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JDGaney
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JDGaney

Guest
Hope Christmas has treated you all well. It has for me, but only until a half hour ago or so.

Tonight I heard my dad going on and on about it doesn’t matter what you believe in, as long as you’re a good person. Later, I calmly spoke to him in private about how he has views that conflict with Church dogma and doctrine about certain important things, and I simply suggested that if he believes that way then he should probably just become an Episcopalian, since he speaks so highly of them, or just go to the Congregational church up the road from us? Eventually it got heated, and all my family was saying I was being judgmental and this was all my opinion, and it didn’t matter because this was my interpretation of it all. I’m not inclusive, I’m just… everything that 21st Century theology opposes, that bad old fashioned guy in all the stories. I spoke to my dad later and asked again, clarifying that I didn’t want to fight. He flat out told me he didn’t care about dogma, and that it was all rooted in being a good person and following the ten commandments. Ironic because the first commandment says “you shall have no other gods before Me” and another one says “do not take My Name in vain,” as my dad constantly says “Jesus Christ” or God d*mn it" and asserts that he is not taking God’s Name in vain by doing that. He flat out said “I’m a great person” and I just held my tongue on the teaching of humility and that our moral standard is God the Father, not a mafia chief, as my dad always told me during my scrupulosity “you’re not killing anyone, you’re not raping anyone, you’re not stealing…”

I don’t know what to do? I’m just going to not talk about it anymore. He has his relationship with God and I hope for the best with him. I just let this all build up in my head, I can’t stop thinking about it, especially when I go to mass and think of the important parts about the Sacrifice and the Eucharist being the actual Body and Blood of our Lord.

Part of this was me always thinking about the theology he expresses, which I know is in clear contradiction of the Church. I just felt like I had to say it, it had been building up inside me for weeks. I guess Jesus was right when He said “I came to divide like a sword.” Ironically, my dad also says that verse is a metaphor and that Jesus wouldn’t divide people. I guess this is the result of modernism and indifferent ideology.

What’s your opinion on all of this? I’m thinking I should just keep my mouth shut from now on.
 
JDGaney said:
Hope Christmas has treated you all well. It has for me, but only until a half hour ago or so.
Click to expand...
Sorry about that…
Tonight I heard my dad going on and on about it doesn’t matter what you believe in, as long as you’re a good person. Later, I calmly spoke to him in private about how he has views that conflict with Church dogma and doctrine about certain important things, and I simply suggested that if he believes that way then he should probably just become an Episcopalian, since he speaks so highly of them, or just go to the Congregational church up the road from us? Eventually it got heated, and all my family was saying I was being judgmental and this was all my opinion, and it didn’t matter because this was my interpretation of it all.
Click to expand...
After reading your whole post I don’t think you are a jerk. However, I don’t think a holiday or any family gathering is the best time to nudge especially with an audience. Judgment is a card that is difficult to play against. Even perceived judgment throws things off, even when no one has said or done anything judgmental.
I’m not inclusive, I’m just… everything that 21st Century theology opposes, that bad old fashioned guy in all the stories. I spoke to my dad later and asked again, clarifying that I didn’t want to fight. He flat out told me he didn’t care about dogma, and that it was all rooted in being a good person and following the ten commandments. Ironic because the first commandment says “you shall have no other gods before Me” and another one says “do not take My Name in vain,” as my dad constantly says “Jesus Christ” or God d*mn it" and asserts that he is not taking God’s Name in vain by doing that.
Click to expand...
Okay, just that last part means that this is no small endeavor. Just this topic alone could take up a day and a half, discussing/arguing.
He flat out said “I’m a great person” and I just held my tongue on the teaching of humility
Click to expand...
Hold on here. He sounds he feels he needs to be on the defensive and “I’m a great person” might be for him to smooth over his emotions or a message to you that he’s not as bad as you are making him out to be. The thing is is that you are not saying that he’s a bad guy.

I’m curious how you understand humility. He managed to get out that he is a “great person” instead of listing the things he does that he thinks are good. Pointing that out isn’t necessarily contrary to humility. St. Therese of Lisieux wrote that her confessor confirmed that she had never commit a mortal sin. Honestly, that sounds sort of braggy to me but being honest about our weaknesses and strengths is true humility. Humility doesn’t mean downplaying what good we do. Perhaps he was being prideful, only God knows, but another person’s humility is an area I think I’d stay away from judging or comparing my own to.
and that our moral standard is God the Father, not a mafia chief, as my dad always told me during my scrupulosity “you’re not killing anyone, you’re not raping anyone, you’re not stealing…”
Click to expand...
That’s setting the bar frustratingly low, huh? “Gee thanks, Dad.” I can understand that.
I don’t know what to do? I’m just going to not talk about it anymore.
Click to expand...
I’ve heard wise people counsel to talk to God about the person you are concerned about more than you talk about God to that person.
He has his relationship with God and I hope for the best with him.
Click to expand...
Yes. Let the Holy Spirit convict, let God judge and you just love.
I just let this all build up in my head, I can’t stop thinking about it, especially when I go to mass and think of the important parts about the Sacrifice and the Eucharist being the actual Body and Blood of our Lord.
Click to expand...
See above.
Part of this was me always thinking about the theology he expresses, which I know is in clear contradiction of the Church. I just felt like I had to say it, it had been building up inside me for weeks. I guess Jesus was right when He said “I came to divide like a sword.” Ironically, my dad also says that verse is a metaphor and that Jesus wouldn’t divide people. I guess this is the result of modernism and indifferent ideology.

What’s your opinion on all of this? I’m thinking I should just keep my mouth shut from now on.
Click to expand...
Well, Jesus isn’t dividing anything but that is what happens when anyone stands up for something or takes a certain path, and others don’t. He was warning us about that. And it does sound like he’s leaning toward modernism or something. Whatever it is, it seems to have him equating sin as shame or that sin means that a person is bad. Also, someone (you) is talking about it must mean he must really be bad. You aren’t doing something wrong by talking to him but I’m suggesting a way he might be perceiving it.

I don’t know about not talking about it ever but maybe not for awhile. And again, not at holidays or major family gatherings. One-on-one is best and at a time that one or both of you will be distracted or pulled in different directions by busyness.

But first learn to see him as God sees him and love him. Do you know what his love language is? People often think in terms of couples but it applies to any relationship. Can you meet a need of his, one where he needs “Jesus with skin on.” Look for that. Once you figure something out, consider if you can meet that need and have a healthy relationship.
 
I don’t think you were exactly being a jerk, but next time just let your Dad have his opinion and don’t respond; it doesn’t sound like you were getting through to him, anyway. At this point, the best thing is to lead by example and pray, pray, pray.
 
Bruised_Reed said:
Sorry about that…

After reading your whole post I don’t think you are a jerk. However, I don’t think a holiday or any family gathering is the best time to nudge especially with an audience. Judgment is a card that is difficult to play against. Even perceived judgment throws things off, even when no one has said or done anything judgmental.

Okay, just that last part means that this is no small endeavor. Just this topic alone could take up a day and a half, discussing/arguing.

Hold on here. He sounds he feels he needs to be on the defensive and “I’m a great person” might be for him to smooth over his emotions or a message to you that he’s not as bad as you are making him out to be. The thing is is that you are not saying that he’s a bad guy.

I’m curious how you understand humility. He managed to get out that he is a “great person” instead of listing the things he does that he thinks are good. Pointing that out isn’t necessarily contrary to humility. St. Therese of Lisieux wrote that her confessor confirmed that she had never commit a mortal sin. Honestly, that sounds sort of braggy to me but being honest about our weaknesses and strengths is true humility. Humility doesn’t mean downplaying what good we do. Perhaps he was being prideful, only God knows, but another person’s humility is an area I think I’d stay away from judging or comparing my own to.

That’s setting the bar frustratingly low, huh? “Gee thanks, Dad.” I can understand that.

I’ve heard wise people counsel to talk to God about the person you are concerned about more than you talk about God to that person.

**
Yes. Let the Holy Spirit convict, let God judge and you just love. *Yes. Best advice ever./***SIZE]

See above.

Well, Jesus isn’t dividing anything but that is what happens when anyone stands up for something or takes a certain path, and others don’t. He was warning us about that. And it does sound like he’s leaning toward modernism or something. Whatever it is, it seems to have him equating sin as shame or that sin means that a person is bad. Also, someone (you) is talking about it must mean he must really be bad. You aren’t doing something wrong by talking to him but I’m suggesting a way he might be perceiving it.

I don’t know about not talking about it ever but maybe not for awhile. And again, not at holidays or major family gatherings. One-on-one is best and at a time that one or both of you will be distracted or pulled in different directions by busyness.

But first learn to see him as God sees him and love him. Do you know what his love language is? People often think in terms of couples but it applies to any relationship. Can you meet a need of his, one where he needs “Jesus with skin on.” Look for that. Once you figure something out, consider if you can meet that need and have a healthy relationship.
Click to expand...
 
Catholic1954 said:
I don’t think you were exactly being a jerk, but next time just let your Dad have his opinion and don’t respond; it doesn’t sound like you were getting through to him, anyway. At this point, the best thing is to lead by example and pray, pray, pray.
Click to expand...
Yes. He expressed an opinion, you escalated it into an argument. The Christmas season is a time for love and respect for our family, not bickering over religious opinions.
 
I find when a person asks a question like “am I/was I being a jerk” they already know the answer (yes) and are looking for someone else to give them a way out of passing that judgement on themselves.

Holiday gatherings, and gatherings to celebrate an event are rarely a good venue for getting into these discussions.
 
Well you tried talking privately to him so it wasn’t like you were grandstanding. Now he knows where you stand and you don’t have to mention it again. Keep on praying and praying!
 
I kind of think you were a jerk. A lot of people think as your father does. Why do you think it was OK to correct him in private or otherwise? Seems a little Grinch- like to me. :tsktsk:
 
My whole family thinks differently. If I sat around correcting them during family gatherings, that’s all I would be doing. There is a time and place for everything and IMHO, this wasn’t the time or place.
 
Just as Christ does not force Himself on anyone, we can’t lead anyone back to Church.
Evangelize with your life, and pray for a change of heart. I’m not going to call you a jerk for caring though.
We’ll pray for you both.
 
I agree with those who said “wrong place, wrong time”. Maybe a phone call apologizing for arguing will patch things up. I apologize for arguing quite a bit, whether I’m right or wrong, just to keep the peace. It isn’t easy. Say a prayer before you call and resist the temptation to justify yourself. There’s a good saying about “An apology with explanation is no apology at all.”

Good luck, I will say a prayer for you and your dad. You only get one…
 
JDGaney said:
Hope Christmas has treated you all well. It has for me, but only until a half hour ago or so.

Tonight I heard my dad going on and on about it doesn’t matter what you believe in, as long as you’re a good person. Later, I calmly spoke to him in private about how he has views that conflict with Church dogma and doctrine about certain important things, and I simply suggested that if he believes that way then he should probably just become an Episcopalian, since he speaks so highly of them, or just go to the Congregational church up the road from us? Eventually it got heated, and all my family was saying I was being judgmental and this was all my opinion, and it didn’t matter because this was my interpretation of it all. I’m not inclusive, I’m just… everything that 21st Century theology opposes, that bad old fashioned guy in all the stories. I spoke to my dad later and asked again, clarifying that I didn’t want to fight. He flat out told me he didn’t care about dogma, and that it was all rooted in being a good person and following the ten commandments. Ironic because the first commandment says “you shall have no other gods before Me” and another one says “do not take My Name in vain,” as my dad constantly says “Jesus Christ” or God d*mn it" and asserts that he is not taking God’s Name in vain by doing that. He flat out said “I’m a great person” and I just held my tongue on the teaching of humility and that our moral standard is God the Father, not a mafia chief, as my dad always told me during my scrupulosity “you’re not killing anyone, you’re not raping anyone, you’re not stealing…”

I don’t know what to do? I’m just going to not talk about it anymore. He has his relationship with God and I hope for the best with him. I just let this all build up in my head, I can’t stop thinking about it, especially when I go to mass and think of the important parts about the Sacrifice and the Eucharist being the actual Body and Blood of our Lord.

Part of this was me always thinking about the theology he expresses, which I know is in clear contradiction of the Church. I just felt like I had to say it, it had been building up inside me for weeks. I guess Jesus was right when He said “I came to divide like a sword.” Ironically, my dad also says that verse is a metaphor and that Jesus wouldn’t divide people. I guess this is the result of modernism and indifferent ideology.

What’s your opinion on all of this? I’m thinking I should just keep my mouth shut from now on.
Click to expand...
I’m so sorry it’s been hard, and on Christmas, too! 😦 How sad.

:hug1:

I come from a family that was originally all Catholic for I’m not sure how many generations, on both sides! However, now, one converted to Baptist, another to Church of God, another to Judaism, another to Born Again, and another to Assembly of God. Then, some have remained Catholic, as well.

We used to get into some knock-down, drag-out arguments over differences in our respective faiths, often during the holidays, to a point some would not speak, sometimes for years at a time!

Now, we have since learned, at least some of us, that it’s simply not worth it. It’s unlikely you will change any of them, and that they would change you. So, why don’t ya’ all do like we did and declare a truce?

Well, on controversial topics, such as politics and religion, we agreed to disagree, and we left it at that, would talk about other subjects.

When people would ignore the truce, my sister would remind them, “Now, remember, we agreed not to talk about religion”…or “politics”.

I recommend that if ya’ all find that talking about the faith causes rifts, arguments, and conflicts, then change the subject.

A family member, :“The pope”…x, y, and z…You:…“Nice weather we’ve been having!”

I knew of someone who fought, constantly about politics. Neither got anywhere, till finally one side had the wisdom to say, “I know what you believe. You know what I believe, so how about we go back to talking about…?”

With religion, arguments can get even more heated than other subjects, because it’s our cherished beliefs. We can’t bear when someone disagrees, or worse, puts down our beliefs.

So, based on decades of conflict in my family over the faith, my mother said the way she handled this now was to NOT talk about religion, if they disagreed. Period.

She only talked about it with fellow Catholics, or people who were “on the same page”.
 
I admit I also don´t care much for cussing. Although, one way I’ve sometimes handled it is to try humor, and often, believe it or not, that can actually work…at least for a while.

So, case in point…someone will start let loose cussing! I’ll say something like, “Now don’t you be talkin’ like a caveman!” 😉 But, I will do it in a funny voice, smiling, and often times, that will stop them. They will often respond just by laughing, and say I’m right, that they will try to curb the language.

I can say, “Language, gentlemen!”

Or,…"…a lady is present!"

Sometimes, they will be surprised…“Oh…my gosh…I’m sorry!”

Remember that episode of the Simpson’s with the swear jar? Well, some people aren’t really bad folks, but learned, often through work, or family, bad habits of cursing and swearing.

Later, it become a habit, automatic, done without even thinking! Really!

But…times I’ve tried to address this, I usually have tried to sprinkle humor on it, feeling it makes it easier to take. Often, at least with me, they act apologetic and stop, out of respect for my feelings, if nothing else.
 
Growing up in an Italian family, this is mild. “If I didn’t love you, I wouldn’t tell you the truth.” was/is a common phrase. For us it usually ends with an offering of a cannoli and a refill of wine.

However, your dad is suffering from “powdered butt syndrome.” It is a state of mind which believes, “If I powdered your butt, I don’t want to hear about money, sex or religion.” So don’t feel bad he reacted like he did. All parents suffer from this (to some degree) except God.

You do need to talk to him, tell him you love him, and to ask his forgiveness for not honoring him in public. These conversations (over all) are best had in private, mano e mano.

Then, don’t let the issues build up. One topic at a time, over the course of 2 to 3 years, state your position from the catechism. Let him pontificate, and leave it. It isn’t winning the argument in one step, it is a thousand drops of water. Remind him you love him, and you want to see him in heaven.

Remember, it is not your responsibility to convict of sin, righteousness and judgement. That belongs to the Holy Spirit. So prayer is the big guns here. You are called to be a witness (martyr), not an executioner.

Finally, from experience, know this, with prayer and witness, it will be someone else in your dad’s life that he will hear on this topic, so pray that person (outside the family) will be bold enough to speak. Don’t be upset that it wasn’t you, but another who leads him to holiness.
 
NeuralMonk said:
Growing up in an Italian family, this is mild. “If I didn’t love you, I wouldn’t tell you the truth.” was/is a common phrase. For us it usually ends with an offering of a cannoli and a refill of wine.

However, your dad is suffering from “powdered butt syndrome.” It is a state of mind which believes, “If I powdered your butt, I don’t want to hear about money, sex or religion.” So don’t feel bad he reacted like he did. All parents suffer from this (to some degree) except God.

You do need to talk to him, tell him you love him, and to ask his forgiveness for not honoring him in public. These conversations (over all) are best had in private, mano e mano.

Then, don’t let the issues build up. One topic at a time, over the course of 2 to 3 years, state your position from the catechism. Let him pontificate, and leave it. It isn’t winning the argument in one step, it is a thousand drops of water. Remind him you love him, and you want to see him in heaven.

Remember, it is not your responsibility to convict of sin, righteousness and judgement. That belongs to the Holy Spirit. So prayer is the big guns here. You are called to be a witness (martyr), not an executioner.

Finally, from experience, know this, with prayer and witness, it will be someone else in your dad’s life that he will hear on this topic, so pray that person (outside the family) will be bold enough to speak. Don’t be upset that it wasn’t you, but another who leads him to holiness.
Click to expand...
“Powdered butt syndrome?!”

:rotfl:

I need to remember that one!

Of late, when I get into a rift, I offer something to the person…as a gesture of wanting to reconcile.

It can be anything from a glass of Coca Cola to a present, whatever. Actually, one often doesn’t have to even say the words, “I’m sorry”, even when apologizing in that style, because it’s often implied.

Even if one didn’t actually make an actual mistake, it also works just as well.

It’s harder to keep fighting with someone who just gave you …something! I’m not much of a wine fan, myself, though the thought would count, but the canoli would DEFINITELY work on me!👍
 
When I first heard, “Powdered butt syndrome”, I thought, “rifle syndrome”?

😉
 
Ecclesiastes 3

A time for giving birth,
a time for dying;
a time for planting,
a time for uprooting what has been planted.

A time for killing,
a time for healing;
a time for knocking down,
a time for building.

A time for tears,
a time for laughter;
a time for mourning,
a time for dancing.

A time for throwing stones away,
a time for gathering them up;
a time for embracing,
a time to refrain from embracing.

A time for searching,
a time for losing;
a time for keeping,
a time for throwing away.

A time for tearing,
a time for sewing;
a time for keeping silent,
a time for speaking.

A time for loving,
a time for hating;
a time for war,
a time for peace.

Fred Conty chapter 9, verse 2
Blessed be God who comforts us in all our trials.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top