Christopher West taking break from speaking to reflect on advice [CNA]

[manualman]

I always appreciate it when JR weighs in. Thanks for the insight.

That said, I have to chuckle a tiny bit at the alleged advantage gained through 2 years of homiletics courses. I’ve experienced homilies from literally hundreds of priests over the years who all presumably had to also take homiletics courses. Over the years, I’ve grown to suspect these courses of something. How else can you explain how so many priests, in so many different places and times take something as unbelievably compelling as the gospel of Jesus and make it banal and tiresome in explanation?? Mr. West may be a flawed and imperfect human being with (like all of us) an imperfect comprehension and ability to explain all aspects of the gospel. But please, don’t make him take the courses that turn him into just another homilist!!!

We don’t need more typical homilies. We need people to present a gospel worth being eaten by lions for.

 

[Brooklyn]

I always appreciate it when JR weighs in. Thanks for the insight.

That said, I have to chuckle a tiny bit at the alleged advantage gained through 2 years of homiletics courses. I’ve experienced homilies from literally hundreds of priests over the years who all presumably had to also take homiletics courses. Over the years, I’ve grown to suspect these courses of something. How else can you explain how so many priests, in so many different places and times take something as unbelievably compelling as the gospel of Jesus and make it banal and tiresome in explanation?? Mr. West may be a flawed and imperfect human being with (like all of us) an imperfect comprehension and ability to explain all aspects of the gospel. But please, don’t make him take the courses that turn him into just another homilist!!!

We don’t need more typical homilies. We need people to present a gospel worth being eaten by lions for.

I’m not quite sure what you mean. The homilies that have affected me the most have been because of the subject matter, not the presentation. If you’re looking to be entertained, I don’t think church is the place you should be. I’d like to think that the Catholic Church will rise above MTV.

 

[RosalynR]

Nota Bene: I am a certification student at the TOB Institute.

I have atteneded one week long class with Christopher West at the TOB Institute. Having heard many different things about his teaching style I was a little wary about how class was going to go.

Christopher’s teaching style is very rooted in pop-culture. He frequently references movies, songs, etc to help get points across because they are difficult. He is also on the more charismatic side. I think this comes out of his studies of TOB because it really draws one to closer to the true meaning of Christ and Church.

I grew deeply in my faith during the class. But I am using it as a stepping stone to fully study JPII’s teachings with other sources as well.

I’m glad to see that he is taking a break and reflecting. He has a large family and is away from them frequently giving talks. Hopefully he comes back refreshed.

 

[manualman]

I’m not quite sure what you mean. The homilies that have affected me the most have been because of the subject matter, not the presentation. If you’re looking to be entertained, I don’t think church is the place you should be. I’d like to think that the Catholic Church will rise above MTV.

Heard a lot of homilies about TOB, have you? Abortion? Sin and its effects? Grace? The efficacy of the Sacraments? Historical context of the Scripture passage? Not me.

90% of the homilies I’ve heard in my life have been about personal experiences, how they made the homilist feel and that in the end he learned more about how God loves him. The last part is great, but not exactly substantive teaching. (Yes, there have been 10% or so that had meat on the bones.) There’s nothing incorrect about telling stories about how you experienced God’s love in the world. But there’s rather more to the gospel too.

Clearly you and I rub each other the wrong way, but the MTV shot is beneath your dignity.

 

[Darryl1958]

I thought it was Freud, but you may be right. The fact is that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. We should not read too much into everything.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

don’t have a source for this either, but I recall hearing that this statement came from Freud in response to a question during a the famous Clark University lectures. Freud had been describing the latent sexual meaning and significance of dream symbols, when someone asked, “You seem to smoke a lot of cigars, what does that symbolize?” Thus issued the famous but apparently unsubstantiated, “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” Even we don’t have an exact reference, it sounds like Freud (to me), and is consistent with his persistant refusal to analyze his addition.
Scott Greer

– Scott Greer (sgreer@upei.ca), September 17, 2003.

greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00BGBz

 

[Darryl1958]

In addition, no one has ever found fault in the theological content of his talks.

That pretty much makes his metrosexuality irrelevant.
Not to my taste, but the kids think that’s cool.

 

[Brooklyn]

Heard a lot of homilies about TOB, have you? Abortion? Sin and its effects? Grace? The efficacy of the Sacraments? Historical context of the Scripture passage? Not me.

90% of the homilies I’ve heard in my life have been about personal experiences, how they made the homilist feel and that in the end he learned more about how God loves him. The last part is great, but not exactly substantive teaching. (Yes, there have been 10% or so that had meat on the bones.) There’s nothing incorrect about telling stories about how you experienced God’s love in the world. But there’s rather more to the gospel too.

Clearly you and I rub each other the wrong way, but the MTV shot is beneath your dignity.

I agree. The MTV comment was a cheap shot and I apologize.

And you’re right, I’ve heard only a few homilies here and there that are actually about anything substantive. I didn’t realize that this is what you meant. It drives me crazy, actually. Most homilies are “feel good” talks, with some great exceptions.

I was talking more about style, which I think is relatively unimportant. Substance, as far as I’m concerned, is what is important, and it would seem that you feel the same way.

So maybe we agree more than it would seem.

 

[manualman]

Don’t you love it when tension builds and then suddenly gets diffused?

Thanks for diffusing. I need to get better at that…

 

[JReducation]

I always appreciate it when JR weighs in. Thanks for the insight.

That said, I have to chuckle a tiny bit at the alleged advantage gained through 2 years of homiletics courses. I’ve experienced homilies from literally hundreds of priests over the years who all presumably had to also take homiletics courses. Over the years, I’ve grown to suspect these courses of something. How else can you explain how so many priests, in so many different places and times take something as unbelievably compelling as the gospel of Jesus and make it banal and tiresome in explanation?? Mr. West may be a flawed and imperfect human being with (like all of us) an imperfect comprehension and ability to explain all aspects of the gospel. But please, don’t make him take the courses that turn him into just another homilist!!!

We don’t need more typical homilies. We need people to present a gospel worth being eaten by lions for.

Homiletics courses are not public speaking courses. They are theology courses. You spend you time studying homilies by the best homilists in Church history. You examine their content, their style, the mechanics that they use, how they deliver the message for differen target populations.

You also examine how the Holy Spirit speaks through a homily. You spend a lot of time putting these homilies within the context revelation, in order to understand how homilies are a continuation of revelation. Though there are no new truths revealed after the death of the last apostle, a homily continues to communicate what has been revealed. What makes the course very important and interesting (for me) was to see how the great homilies were almost echos of the scriptures, the Apostles and Fathers of the Church. You walk away with a sense of the importance of understanding revelation and building your message from there. So when you sit to study a piece of scripture or a papal document such as TOB, you read it through the eyes of a student of Revelation. It is this wonder and awe that you bring to your presentation.

There is an entire theological dimension ot homiletics along with a technical dimension. You’re looking at the communication of revelation. In order to see this, you have to analyze the great homilies, meaning that you have to understand what they are saying. Then you examine the technique used by the homilist, how he communicates revealed truth. Finally, you get into specific schools of spirituality. There were specific standards for homiletics that certain religious founders had. Whether you’re a secular deacon, priest or bishop, a lay man, or a religious, you learn a lot from these great founders. For example, the Franciscan school values gentleness in homilies. You can teach about heaven or hell, sin or salvation, in a very gentle manner, because the focus is on the content, not the messenger. The messenger must always be brotherly.

The Dominican school places a great emphasis on the intellectual and logical organization in preaching. Truth begins in the intellect and moves to the heart.

The Jesuit tradition places a great emphasis on apologetics. So a homily or a retreat talk etc is always a defense of the faith.

None of these things are a training in good public speaking. As far as I know, the only ones who require an actual course in public speaking and communications are the religiuos orders. It’s optional for diocesan seminarians. There may be some bishops who may require it, but I don’t now any.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[unafraid]

I always appreciate it when JR weighs in. Thanks for the insight.

That said, I have to chuckle a tiny bit at the alleged advantage gained through 2 years of homiletics courses. I’ve experienced homilies from literally hundreds of priests over the years who all presumably had to also take homiletics courses. Over the years, I’ve grown to suspect these courses of something. How else can you explain how so many priests, in so many different places and times take something as unbelievably compelling as the gospel of Jesus and make it banal and tiresome in explanation?? Mr. West may be a flawed and imperfect human being with (like all of us) an imperfect comprehension and ability to explain all aspects of the gospel. But please, don’t make him take the courses that turn him into just another homilist!!!

We don’t need more typical homilies. We need people to present a gospel worth being eaten by lions for.

Technical proficiency can take one only so far. There are countless aspiring cellists who matriculate at Julliard,. but there is only one Yo Yo Ma. Virtuosity is a great gift. Great preachers are born…not made. It is a charism.

 

[JReducation]

Technical proficiency can take one only so far. There are countless aspiring cellists who matriculate at Julliard,. but there is only one Yo Yo Ma. Virtuosity is a great gift. Great preachers are born…not made. It is a charism.

Go back to post 29. You’ll see that homiletics is a theology course, not a public speaking course. You don’t do public speaking in homiletics. Homiletics has nothing to do with technical proviciency. The only technical part of the course is in the analysis of how the great homilies of history are put together.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[fms]

Some of what Christpher West says has never felt right to me.

He has support of Catholic Answers personnel (at least three).

 

[unafraid]

Go back to post 29. You’ll see that homiletics is a theology course, not a public speaking course. You don’t do public speaking in homiletics. Homiletics has nothing to do with technical proviciency. The only technical part of the course is in the analysis of how the great homilies of history are put together.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

If courses in homiletics can elevate the standards of those who serve the church from the current mediocrity (or worse) to the exceptionalism She deserves, then I’m all for it. Our family will be going to a meet and greet session with Father Corapi on April 30th. Why? Because his preaching has moved and inspired us in this difficult time. He has helped us remember the basics of our religion amidst all of this shame. He speaks directly to the heart.

Raising children in the Roman Catholic Church right now can be discouraging. The faithful deserve more than the status quo. We are the congregation, the “living stones” of the Church, and we love Her as much as any who wear the collar or the robe. We have been betrayed. We demand better. People have to remember that the flock has been wounded along with the image of the Church by this sex abuse crisis. Setting higher standards is essential.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

Some of what Christpher West says has never felt right to me.

He has support of Catholic Answers personnel (at least three).

Please illuminate us as to what you heard that did not feel right. By the support of
the personnel to Christopher West, are you saying they did something wrong?

 

[JReducation]

If courses in homiletics can elevate the standards of those who serve the church from the current mediocrity (or worse) to the exceptionalism She deserves, then I’m all for it. Our family will be going to a meet and greet session with Father Corapi on April 30th. Why? Because his preaching has moved and inspired us in this difficult time. He has helped us remember the basics of our religion amidst all of this shame. He speaks directly to the heart.

Raising children in the Roman Catholic Church right now can be discouraging. The faithful deserve more than the status quo. We are the congregation, the “living stones” of the Church, and we love Her as much as any who wear the collar or the robe. We have been betrayed. We demand better. People have to remember that the flock has been wounded along with the image of the Church by this sex abuse crisis. Setting higher standards is essential.

Courses in homiletics are not going to guarrantee great preachers. Just look at my own writings. I took a lot of homiletics. Homiletics helps you study theology through the great homilies of history. Of course, as you go through them you pick up on the styles of these great preachers and writers. You can’t help it, because you’re dealing with their material. But the focus of the course is really the content of these great homilies. The reason that we take these courses is to help us understand theology applied to everyday circumstances, because most theology courses are very objective. They cannot address every possibility in human life. However, the homilies of our anscestors were meant to addresss specific issues and topics, even events. In studying them, we see how theology is applied and we also learn more theology.

That being said, there is no guarrantee that we are going to be great preachers or writers. Again, judge for yourself. I studied it for a very long time. By the way, my favorite homilists were: St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Anthony of Padua, St. Bonaventure and St. Leonard of Port Maurice.

Moving along, Fr.Corapi is a great preacher, just not my style. I prefer Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Fr. Frank Pavone and Fr. Benedict G.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Courses in homiletics are not going to guarrantee great preachers. Just look at my own writings.

I respectfully disagree.

Despite my own inner turmoil and anger, I never fail to get something from your posts.

 

[unafraid]

I respectfully disagree.

Despite my own inner turmoil and anger, I never fail to get something from your posts.

I agree with the above poster, you do a fine job with your posts They are very instructional.

Getting back to the subject of great preachers, I am very inspired by Father George Rutler, who hosts “Christ in the City”, on EWTN. He has an easy, elegant style, but beneath one senses deep spirituality Also, Father Cantalamessa, the Vatican preacher, moves me greatly. His confident style is refreshing and uplifting. Of course, Mother Angelica has inspired all of us with her simple, direct mode of communicating.

Keep up the good work, BR JR, we all benefit from your grounding efforts at edification during this time of collective outrage and disappointment. Thanks.

 

[JReducation]

I agree with the above poster, you do a fine job with your posts They are very instructional.

Getting back to the subject of great preachers, I am very inspired by Father George Rutler, who hosts “Christ in the City”, on EWTN. He has an easy, elegant style, but beneath one senses deep spirituality Also, Father Cantalamessa, the Vatican preacher, moves me greatly. His confident style is refreshing and uplifting. Of course, Mother Angelica has inspired all of us with her simple, direct mode of communicating.

Keep up the good work, BR JR, we all benefit from your grounding efforts at edification during this time of collective outrage and disappointment. Thanks.

Thank you. I love Raniero C. He is such a good guy. When I was student he was often around. He always made me laugh. He speaks fluent Spanish and I do too. But he is SOOOOOOOOOO Italian in his humor and his reactions to things and his passion. He’s just a great guy. I haven’t seen him in years. We both hard dark hair once upon a time.

One of his best books for anyone who is interested: Mary: Mirror of the Church

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[fms]

Please illuminate us as to what you heard that did not feel right.

Christopher West’s ideas on sexuality ignore ‘tremendous dangers,’ Alice von Hildebrand say

By the support of
the personnel to Christopher West, are you saying they did something wrong?

It comes across as if he is expounding Church Teaching on matters the Church is silent about.