Christopher West?

[Joya]

West does not really present any new understanding of morality. He is not acting as a theologian, so much as a teacher or popular presenter of the theological works of others. Much of what he says offers no real theological argument, but more of a summary of what theologians teach.

He incorrectly attributes all that he teaches on sexuality to JP2’s TOB. Much of what he teaches is not found at all in TOB. It is rather the teaching of a number of different theologians.

There are some modernist errors in his teaching on sexuality. He generally gets most of the major points right. However, he does not make a strong theological argument, even when his conclusion is right. And in many places there is no attempt at all to support what he is saying.

The best teacher is not necessarily the most eloquent or most entertaining teacher. I think the main reason that West has become so popular is that he teaches in a very entertaining way. But his writing is rather thin on theology, lacks true theological arguments, and he asserts certain errors without any basis or theological explanation. The closest he comes to a theological argument is to quote JP2 and then give his own interpretation of the quote.

There is a dearth of good texts on the topic of Catholic sexual ethics.

Wow! Impressive answer. You appear to know your stuff. What is an example of one of his errors in his teachings? I am dying to know. Thanks, Ron.

 

[rlg94086]

I’ve cited and recommended his books a few times - primarily, because he helped me and my wife directly in turning away from artificial contraception. In his capacity at the time as Director of the Office of Marriage and Family Life in the Denver Archdiocese (Archbishop Chaput very much approves of West’s works), he provided me resources, including his book, which helped me and my wife understand and accept Church teaching. He is not beyond criticism, but I found his book Good News About Sex and Marriage helpful.

For those who only believe in reading original works from the Magisterium, that is great. At the point in my life, when I read West’s book, I wasn’t reading many original Magisterial works (Catechism…Bible…that’s about it). His book *led *me to dig deeper and learn more. Isn’t that a good thing?

By the way, what I am “tired of” is comments like these:

The way people on this sight (sic) talk about his book it almost sounds as if it is the gospel.

There is no reason to assign such attitudes to people who found a book helpful and recommend it to others.

 

[CuriousInIL]

I have heard Mr. West speak, and thought he was good but…It seems to me that he has “disneyfied” the Theology of the Body. You know, it became Walt Disney’s Winnie the Pooh, Walt Disney’s Mary Poppins, Walt Disney’s Peter Pan. Well, it was not Disney’s Pooh, Poppins and Pan, and it is not West’s Theology of the Body. My suggestion: Read JPII. Very deep, very difficult and very rewarding.

This line of thinking makes me a bit uneasy. Actually, even the title of his book (The Good News about Sex and Marriage) makes me a bit uneasy. The way people on this sight talk about his book it almost sounds as if it is the gospel.

Having said that, I have read it and did gain good insight from it. But in all honesty, I’d rather go directly to the man God appointed to lead His flock: John Paul II - dry reading or not. Christopher West’s thoughts on theology of the body are his views regarding John Paul II’s writings. I say allow the Holy Spirit guide us while reading the writings of John Paul II and use Christopher West’s writings as a guide to our reading of JPII instead of Christopher West being almost taughted as the source document of how to understand TOB.

What makes me uneasy about West is that he doesn’t come out of the Magisterium, but out of a website world where he seems to be in the business of selling books, CD’s, and booking personal appearences. Yes, I know he has advanced degrees, and yes I know he has catechetical certification, and yes I know at least one of his books has a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur (but then, at one time, these statements could all have been made about Richard McBrian). He seems to have been embraced by dioceses and religious ed programs who are grateful to employ a “hired gun” to say things and use words that others aren’t comfortable using.

This is not to say he is wrong, necessarily. In fact, I hope he isn’t. But I would be much more comfortable if the Magisterium interpreted and applied JP II’s TOB teachings, and not a hired gun like West.

I agree, I agree, I agree.

 

[CuriousInIL]

Care to suggest anyone better than CW?

John Paul II aka John Paul the Great.

 

[CuriousInIL]

I’ve cited and recommended his books a few times - primarily, because he helped me and my wife directly in turning away from artificial contraception. In his capacity at the time as Director of the Office of Marriage and Family Life in the Denver Archdiocese (Archbishop Chaput very much approves of West’s works), he provided me resources, including his book, which helped me and my wife understand and accept Church teaching. He is not beyond criticism, but I found his book Good News About Sex and Marriage helpful.

For those who only believe in reading original works from the Magisterium, that is great. At the point in my life, when I read West’s book, I wasn’t reading many original Magisterial works (Catechism…Bible…that’s about it). His book *led *me to dig deeper and learn more. Isn’t that a good thing?

By the way, what I am “tired of” is comments like these:By the way, what I am “tired of” is comments like these:
Quote:
The way people on this sight (sic) talk about his book it almost sounds as if it is the gospel.
There is no reason to assign such attitudes to people who found a book helpful and recommend it to others.

Well, I would h ave not made the spelling mistake–ok I might have–but I agree with the underlying quote a lot. They may or may not feel that way, but it is my place to judge what the attitude of a post is to a reader–me. And, I am tired of the rote recitation off CW’s name as if it is the be all and end all.

 

[Chancellare]

John Paul II aka John Paul the Great.

JPII is the author of TOB book upon which CW expounded. Looks like the complaint in this thread is just like saying St Paul is a lousy explainer of Christ’s teachings.

 

[CuriousInIL]

JPII is the author of TOB book upon which CW expounded. Looks like the complaint in this thread is just like saying St Paul is a lousy explainer of Christ’s teachings.

Even JPtG was no Christ and CW is certainly no St Paul. But other than that, right on the money.

 

[bilop]

The problem is that, 99.9% of all Catholics will never read an original Magisterial document, and will not read dense theological works, like JP II’s TOB.

West distills these things into an accesible form. By doind so, more souls will be saved than otherwise. That’s the point, right?

Some people object to West b/c he contradicts the extremely prudish, anti-sex message they were taught in their youth. This was never the true teaching of the Church, but many have absorbed it.

God Bless

 

[rlg94086]

Well, I would h ave not made the spelling mistake–ok I might have–but I agree with the underlying quote a lot. They may or may not feel that way, but it is my place to judge what the attitude of a post is to a reader–me. And, I am tired of the rote recitation off CW’s name as if it is the be all and end all.

Okay…I’m not done reading Holy Sex! A Catholic Guide to Toe-Curling, Mind-Blowing, Infallible Loving, but I’ll start reciting Gregory K. Popcak’s name as well to mix things up a little. So far, I’m pretty happy with what I’ve read, so I will probably be recommending it to people…and this way you will get to hear another name.

 

[Questionsabound]

Not really a fan as too many people site his books as though its the Bible.

First thing you know we’ll start hearing the lector at church say: “A reading from Christopher West to the Catholic Christians”.

 

[rlg94086]

Not really a fan as too many people site his books as though its the Bible.

 

[Cari]

I totally agree with the OP. I sometimes like to count how many posts it takes on threads dealing with issues of sexuality before someone suggests one of his books. It never, ever fails.

I understand that for many people, West’s books are the most accessible resources for learning about the Church’s teaching on sexuality available, but honestly, sometimes the suggestions come off in a “if you just read West’s books, you’ll never struggle with problem X again” way. Some people seem to have “read West’s books” as a cure-all for any sexual problem that plagues Catholics.

I’m not discounting anyone’s positive experiences with West, but I’m just saying, if reading the man’s books were truly the magical solution they’re sometimes made out to be, then all our sexual agonizing would be over!

 

[rlg94086]

I totally agree with the OP. I sometimes like to count how many posts it takes on threads dealing with issues of sexuality before someone suggests one of his books. It never, ever fails.

I understand that for many people, West’s books are the most accessible resources for learning about the Church’s teaching on sexuality available, but honestly, sometimes the suggestions come off in a “if you just read West’s books, you’ll never struggle with problem X again” way. Some people seem to have “read West’s books” as a cure-all for any sexual problem that plagues Catholics.

I’m not discounting anyone’s positive experiences with West, but I’m just saying, if reading the man’s books were truly the magical solution they’re sometimes made out to be, then all our sexual agonizing would be over!

I can’t speak for everyone, but if I see someone struggling with sexual issues from a Catholic perspective and I believe that either West’s or Popcak’s books will help them understand Church teaching, then I am going to recommend they read the book.

I really could care less about whether someone like yourself makes a false assumption about the reasons behind my suggestions. If the books actually help someone with their faith, then that is a good thing. If you know of some better books that will help people understand the relationship between sexuality and holiness in layman terms, then feel free to suggest them as alternatives.

 

[Cari]

I can’t speak for everyone, but if I see someone struggling with sexual issues from a Catholic perspective and I believe that either West’s or Popcak’s books will help them understand Church teaching, then I am going to recommend they read the book.

I really could care less about whether someone like yourself makes a false assumption about the reasons behind my suggestions. If the books actually help someone with their faith, then that is a good thing. If you know of some better books that will help people understand the relationship between sexuality and holiness in layman terms, then feel free to suggest them as alternatives.

I never made any assumptions about the reasons behind your suggestions. I was quite clear that I wasn’t invalidating the fruits of West’s books. I was pointing out that many times, posters respond to a heartfelt plea for help with nothing more than a “read TOB by West, it’ll explain it all to you” that verges on condescending.

I’m not sure why you’re so defensive. You like his books, great. I’ve never read any of them, and so am not commenting on the content. I’m commenting on what sometimes comes off as a mindless response from some posters on posts of a sexual nature. And just to be clear- I’m not claiming that you’ve done this, so please don’t accuse me of making false assumptions about you.

 

[rlg94086]

I never made any assumptions about the reasons behind your suggestions. I was quite clear that I wasn’t invalidating the fruits of West’s books. I was pointing out that many times, posters respond to a heartfelt plea for help with nothing more than a “read TOB by West, it’ll explain it all to you” that verges on condescending.

I’m not sure why you’re so defensive. You like his books, great. I’ve never read any of them, and so am not commenting on the content. I’m commenting on what sometimes comes off as a mindless response from some posters on posts of a sexual nature. And just to be clear- I’m not claiming that you’ve done this, so please don’t accuse me of making false assumptions about you.

Okay…just about others. Why make assumptions at all?

Sometimes, it is easier, and more fruitful, to recommend a whole book than to give a small snippet that may or may not help the person. Perhaps, you ought to give a read of one of his books…actually I’m 1/2 way through *Holy Sex! *by Popcak, and I like his writing style better. Give that one a try.

 

[newbetx]

Sometimes, it is easier, and more fruitful, to recommend a whole book than to give a small snippet that may or may not help the person. Perhaps, you ought to give a read of one of his books…actually I’m 1/2 way through *Holy Sex! *by Popcak, and I like his writing style better. Give that one a try.

Thanks, I will!

And as I try to explain on CAF, a post or two can’t do justice to TOB. It would be like “read these 17 posts on CAF and you will understand all Catholicism offers.” Can’t be done.

I totally agree with the OP. I sometimes like to count how many posts it takes on threads dealing with issues of sexuality before someone suggests one of his books. It never, ever fails.

I understand that for many people, West’s books are the most accessible resources for learning about the Church’s teaching on sexuality available, but honestly, sometimes the suggestions come off in a “if you just read West’s books, you’ll never struggle with problem X again” way. Some people seem to have “read West’s books” as a cure-all for any sexual problem that plagues Catholics.

I’m not discounting anyone’s positive experiences with West, but I’m just saying, if reading the man’s books were truly the magical solution they’re sometimes made out to be, then all our sexual agonizing would be over!

For some (like me:blush: ) it ***was ***almost magical. Others believe the same because that is how it affected us. But I will continue to recommend them because the books just may affect others as it affected me. I can assure you the CCC did not affect me like CW’s style. If it works, great. If it doesn’t do the trick, try something else. Cross that bridge when you get to it.

and how is

I sometimes like to count how many posts it takes on threads dealing with issues of sexuality before someone suggests one of his books. It never, ever fails.

not condescending?

 

[newbetx]

Not really a fan as too many people site his books as though its the Bible.

First thing you know we’ll start hearing the lector at church say: “A reading from Christopher West to the Catholic Christians”.

While we may be over enthusiastic, I believe we see CW’s writings based on JP II’s TOB as a KEY to understanding the Bible…

And thanks for the idea about the readings… I was trying my darnedest to figure out how to make TOB part of homilies… You may have stumbled onto something, here…

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

By the way, what I am “tired of” is comments like these:

The way people on this sight (sic) talk about his book it almost sounds as if it is the gospel.

There is no reason to assign such attitudes to people who found a book helpful and recommend it to others.

Well, since I made that comment, I’d like to respond to the charge.

I liked reading Christopher West’s book. As a matter of fact, I bought the book (Good News About Sex and Marriage) probably at the suggestion of someone from this site (spelled “site” correctly this time ).

I just wished he wasn’t the only suggestion given much of the time as to how to view TOB that’s all.

I do get the impression that CW is the authority on the issue based on what others post here. I feel uneasy about the amount of credit he is given as the source to go to regarding TOB.

 

[rlg94086]

Well, since I made that comment, I’d like to respond to the charge.

I liked reading Christopher West’s book. As a matter of fact, I bought the book (Good News About Sex and Marriage) probably at the suggestion of someone from this site (spelled “site” correctly this time ).

I just wished he wasn’t the only suggestion given much of the time as to how to view TOB that’s all.

I do get the impression that CW is the authority on the issue based on what others post here. I feel uneasy about the amount of credit he is given as the source to go to regarding TOB.

He isn’t *the *authority on the issue, but he is one of the most prolific. Also, many people just find reading (or even starting to read) Good News About Sex and Marriage a less daunting task than picking up the 768 page *Man and Woman He Created Them: A Theology Of The Body *, which is all 129 of Pope John Paul II’s homilies on the subject.

There are other authors - here is a link to Amazon with the “Thelogy of the Body” search results: amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/102-3274794-4206526?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=theology+of+the+Body

I think any resource that helps people understand Church teaching and apply it to their lives is a good resource. West is just the most well known on the subject, thus he is recommended the most. But, don’t worry, I don’t think the Gospel According to Christopher will be added to the Bible.

The book I’m reading right now (Holy Sex!) deals with applying Church teaching to your marriage. To me, this is even more helpful, because the author teaches about Theology of the Body (not just from JPII’s homilies, but also from Church tradition) in the course of applying it to our relationships and attitudes towards sex. Besides, his style is even easier to read (lots of humor, examples from real couples he has counselled, etc.). I do skip over the quizzes though. It’s always hard to be brutally honest with yourself when you know what the “right” answer is.

 

[LittleDeb]

I just wished he wasn’t the only suggestion given much of the time as to how to view TOB that’s all.

I do get the impression that CW is the authority on the issue based on what others post here. I feel uneasy about the amount of credit he is given as the source to go to regarding TOB.

I agree with you here. CW is probably an American authority on the topic. But Waldstein is the authority according to those who have studied TOB in depth.

I started studying TOB long before I ever heard of CW. Without Waldstein, we would not have an accurate translation of TOB.