Christ's Church is Invisible

[jmcrae]

One of his objections to this would be that the Church acts like a state government would (particularly in centuries past).

What does he think the Lutherans and the Anglicans were doing, when they took over the German and English governments, respectively?

Individuals within every Church system have sometimes gone beyond the bounds of propriety in their involvment in secular affairs. It’s also important to mention that they were asked by those same secular bodies to help out, though.

Someone in the future might criticize Billy Graham for being too involved with American politics, for example, but us, living at the time, are fully aware that Dr. Graham never goes anywhere that he has not been invited.

It’s kind of the same thing with the Church. In medieval times, it was common for members of the nobility to be illiterate and unschooled, so they would ask for help from members of the Church (who were generally quite well educated) to help them out and advise them in crucial areas of decision making. Did it get out of hand? Sure - some church officials took advantage of the trust that was placed in them and took things into their own hands. But it all started off very well-intentioned.

Ask your Mennonite friend, if someone in a position of power were to ask his opinion on something, would he give it, or not? And if the person in power acts on his recommendation, has he done anything wrong? Especially if he tells the person what he thinks Jesus would want him to do?

 

[abelville]

I used to be protestant (Church of God, Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of Christ, Covenant Church…probably 15 more) Hey, what can I say, I was searching. Always taught that invisible church was correct - so says 20,000 differing denominations. I guess at that point the church needs to be invisible.

After comming home to Rome in 1996, I was so thankful to have a visible home. I felt as an orphan and so thankful to gain a blessed mother out of the deal as well.

God Bless!!!

Al

 

[Erich]

The Church is the Body (not the Soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible.

 

[christcnection1]

As a Mennonite he, agrees that other Protestant groups were politically motivated in many instances. He would strongly disagree with modern Christiants to get involved in politics. The Anabaptists are somtimes seen or called “the third way.” In my opinion, they are unique in the world of Christianity, and I have a lot of respect for them. During the Reformation, they were being persecuted on all sides. Without question, they are peace-loving, humble servants of our God.

He would not disagree that the Church is visible in the sense that bodies can be seen. When he says “invisible” he means non-hierarchical/non-political. He did not go into great depth; he only used this single verse. (And I can understand why he would interpret this verse that way.) You just can’t take a single verse and rule out others.

Basically I’m looking for a clearer way to explain this passage of scripture in light of other passages.

 

[jmcrae]

As a Mennonite he, agrees that other Protestant groups were politically motivated in many instances. He would strongly disagree with modern Christiants to get involved in politics. The Anabaptists are somtimes seen or called “the third way.” In my opinion, they are unique in the world of Christianity, and I have a lot of respect for them. During the Reformation, they were being persecuted on all sides. Without question, they are peace-loving, humble servants of our God.

He would not disagree that the Church is visible in the sense that bodies can be seen. When he says “invisible” he means non-hierarchical/non-political. He did not go into great depth; he only used this single verse. (And I can understand why he would interpret this verse that way.) You just can’t take a single verse and rule out others.

Basically I’m looking for a clearer way to explain this passage of scripture in light of other passages.

The existence of the New Testament itself is evidence of a hierarchy in the Early Church. Otherwise, there would have been no one to do the writing (overall Church leadership - the Apostles), and no one to read it (leaders of local congregations).

They were certainly engaged in politics, as well. Most of them were martyred for opposing the ruling government.

Maybe have him sit down and read straight through the book of Acts in one sitting, with a note book and a pencil, and note down how many times the Apostles give rulings on various issues, and how these rulings are carried out in the Church. (ie: do they take a show of hands, or have a secret ballot, before implementing Peter’s decrees? Etc.)

 

[Erich]

When he says “invisible” he means non-hierarchical/non-political.

From ScriptureCatholic.org’s “The Church is Hierarchical”

Matt. 16:18; 18:18 - Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

Acts 20:17,28 - Paul refers to both the elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) and the bishops (“episkopoi”) of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.

Eph. 4:11 - the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

Phil. 1:1 - Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 - Christ’s Church has bishops (“episkopoi”) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 - Christ’s Church also has elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 - Christ’s Church also has deacons (“diakonoi”). Thus, Jesus Christ’s Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 – shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood (1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1); (2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1); and (3). Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6). The New Testament priesthood also has three offices: (1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1); (2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7); and (3) Universal priests - all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6).

 

[Erich]

Basically I’m looking for a clearer way to explain this passage of scripture in light of other passages.

scripturecatholic.com’s home page summarizes, in the first paragraph, why I like that site so much:

ScriptureCatholic.com provides over 2,000 Scripture citations from the Old and New Testament that explain and defend the teachings of the Catholic Church. This site also provides hundreds of excerpts from the writings of the early Church Fathers (1st through 8th centuries). These writings explain the Fathers’ interpretation of Scripture and demonstrate that the early Church was unequivocally Catholic. Through the study of Scripture and the Church Fathers, we see that, not only is the Catholic faith biblical, Catholicism is Bible Christianity par excellence.

 

[Catholig]

John 18:36

“My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.”

What does the Catholic Church have to say about this verse?

Just a question for any pro-invisible churchers - was the church of the first covenant invisible? You know Moses & Aron (sp?)?

Catholig

 

[christcnection1]

Thank you for all the (name removed by moderator)ut everyone. That gives me a lot to go on.

 

[JeannetteCML]

He meant his kingdom is not a temporal one–it is not a state government like OT Israel. Neither is the Church, the new spiritual Israel. Jesus reigns over all of Creation (Heaven and this world) from Heaven. Much of the Church is in Heaven with Him (what we call the Church Triumphant). The part of the Church on earth (the Church Militant) is making our way towards our goal–Heaven. Some will unfortanetly not make it. But, while the kingdom is not of this world (like a state government) it is visible in this world and must be spread throughout the world.

If you are particularly interested in the interpretation of your verse in John, the above quote is the one that best begins to make an important distinction: namely, the “Church of Christ” is not synonymous with the “Kingdom of God.” One is broader than the other for starters. If you would like me to elaborate on this distinction I’d have to go dig for it for you… But for your friend’s sake, I would say that it would be closer to the Father’s Will on Earth if the “Kingdom of God” penetrated into the world of politics.

 

[rwoehmke]

If I’m not mistaken, very few evils ever came out of the Anabaptist movement. (…other than bad theology.) Thoughts?
.

Some of the early Anabaptists were just as intolerant as other Religions people were killed, sometimes tortured because they believed or taught something that disagreed with the establishment in the area where they were strong and dominant. It wasn’t only Catholics who burned heretics to their religion…

 

[East_and_West]

John 18:36

“My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.”

What does the Catholic Church have to say about this verse?

That the Kingdom is from above. It is not like the Kingdoms this world because it comes from above. But the fact is that it is really COMING form above, arriving hear on earth in Christ’s Church.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

What is the significance of an invisible Church? What does an invisible Church do? What does an invisible Church allow for?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

It wasn’t only Catholics who burned heretics to their religion…

It was those in secular power who burned heretics. They took advantage of the convictions to grab land. The purpose of the Church was to save souls. The purpose of those in secular power was to grab land.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

longwayhome:

I really think it was inappropriate for teachccd to question your background and motives.

What one writes on one’s profile under religion should be true. If there are inconsistencies fair comment includes bringing the inconsistencies to light.

 

[jmcrae]

If I’m not mistaken, very few evils ever came out of the Anabaptist movement. (…other than bad theology.) Thoughts?

The Salem witch trials were conducted by a community of Puritans - the Puritans were among the original Anabaptists.

Part of why we don’t hear much bad about Anabaptists is, first of all, we usually refer to them by their community names rather than as “Anabaptists,” so we might not make the connection, and secondly, it’s not that they don’t do anything, but that they remain separated in their own communities - we only hear about them if something happens to them that affects the rest of us in some way. But typically, they have no radio, newspapers, or other forms of mass communication, which means not only that no news of the secular world gets in, but also no news of what is happening with them ever gets out - or very seldom.

 

[look3467]

Jesus said this: Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

The purpose for quoting those two verses is that the temple of God on earth was the Jewish temple. But that temple was destroyed just as Jesus was destroyed, making now, the temple a heavenly temple that resides in the hearts of mankind.
Jesus said: Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

There worship is done in human hearts and in spirit.There needs to be no earthen temple made with hands to house the spirit of God.
But, an earthen temple(Physical church) is a place to have fellowship, and a sense of belonging.

If the Catholic suit your needs, then theres where you need to go.

Worship God in heart and spirit anywhere you want.

Peace>>>AJ:heart:

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Worship God in heart and spirit anywhere you want.Peace>>>AJ:heart:

And chaos shall reign! Which btw it is doing among the 33000 denominations.

 

[look3467]

And chaos shall reign! Which btw it is doing among the 33000 denominations.

Ani,

Jesus gave us two commandments: 1 love God and 2 love thy neighbor.
If you practice these two, it doesn’t matter what church you espouse as yours.
There cam be 33,000 of them, but if all practice those two commandments, then they will all be of that self same spirit of God which is love.

Divisions come when we decide that our way is the right way and everybody’s else’s is the wrong way.

There is absolutely no confusion when we are exercising love, because love holds no ill towards any one regardless of what they believe.

Be a good Catholic and love with your heart.

Peace>>>AJ:heart:

 

[Ani_Ibi]

look3467:

Jesus gave us two commandments: 1 love God and 2 love thy neighbor.

I heard there were some more coming. Oh! They already came. Did you blink? Don’t blink!

look3467:

Divisions come when we decide that our way is the right way and everybody’s else’s is the wrong way.

You have a way. Have you put your way above Jesus’s way? Looks like you have already missed two Christian commandments to say nothing of the commandments which Jesus came to fulfill.

look3467:

There is absolutely no confusion when we are exercising love, because love holds no ill towards any one regardless of what they believe.

And of course looks the other way when ill happens because it might not feel good to feel the pull of conscience.

And of course has no need for Truth because it might offend and that might embarrass us or compromise our relations with lesser persons than Jesus.

Jesus said that he was coming with a sword. What does that mean, I wonder?

look3467:

Be a good Catholic and love with your heart.

Jesus said “If you love me, then follow my Commandments.” Those are His terms. Are His terms not OK with you? God bless you with that one!