Christ's sacrafice

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I was not sure where to post this, but here’s my question:
I understand that Christ died for all of us and paid the price for our sins. The only thing I was wondering about was exactly how this was accomplished. In what way exactly did Jesus dying on the cross pay for our sins? How did Jesus’s passion make it so that we can enter into heaven. In addition to this, I was wondering what role does the mass have if our sins have already been paid for?
Thanks for any responses
 
If possible in your parish attend a Compendium of the Catholic Church course, or pick up a copy of Pope Benedict’s book.

amazon.com/Compendium-Catechism-Catholic-Ratzinger-Benedict/dp/1574557203

I turned in this assignment (write a few paragraphs on a Sacrament using paragraphs from the Compendium).

The Sacrament of Reconciliation / Conversion: The Spiritual Mystery behind the Modern Confessional

For over a thousand years, once each year on the Day of Atonement (114/578) in Hebrew Yom Kippur, a Jewish High Priest would strengthen the covenant vow or family bond between God and the nation of Israel by interceding for his people.

The High Priest would ask for God’s mercy and the forgiveness of their sins by offering the body and the life blood of a sacrificial bull and goat. (302/1440-1449)

The High Priest’s intercession was also combined with a physical ceremonial act. (238/1153-1155,1190) The animal blood, drained into a cup or challis was taken by the High Priest into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled on the top or mercy seat, located between the two golden angels. Inside the Arc of the Covenant, rested the jar of manna from the Exodus desert, the priestly staff of Aaron, and the Ten Commandment stones. (295/1420-1421,1426)

In the NT, Jesus (324/1544) gave His authority to “bind and loose”(1441) and after His Resurrection to “forgive or to retain” to Peter and the Apostles. (298/1485) Christ’ mission continues in the Church through the Sacrament of Confession / Conversion redeeming humanity from our enslavement to sin. (218, 219, 220 / 1066-1076) (118,119,120 599-611 619-621)

Today, each person individually initiates the covenant restoration process as he/she strives to become like Jesus and to receive Him more fully through the conversion process of heart, mind and soul through the Sacraments of Reconciliation (295/1420-1421,1426) and the Sacrament of the Eucharist. (292/1391-1397,1416) (299/1427-1429)
 
Tom,

The “how” is in the Cross. JESUS death on the Cross is the “how” or our salvation. JESUS assumed all the sin past and future and offered HIMSELF to GOD the FATHER as the most perfect sacrifice, which in accepting GOD the FATHER allowed the gates of heaven to be opened (closed since Adam/Eve), allowing us to enter “if” we are perfect as GOD the FATHER is perfect.
JESUS became the sacrifice and received the punishment, we became the saved and received the grace of HIS death through salvation.

The Mass is a rememberance and a sacrament which JESUS instituted by converting the Last Supper into a “continuous supper” in which JESUS presents HIMSELF for us that we may consume HIM, and for a few short moments have Heaven present within us - I have heard estimates of 300,000 Masses each day around the world.

The very first thing/act JESUS performed when HE rose from the dead and met with HIS apostles was to institute the sacrament of confession, “…whose sins you forgive they are forgiven and whose sins you retain, they are retained…”. JESUS opening heaven did not nullify our “free will”, despite HIS sacrifice, we can still reject HIM, and sadly we do many times each day, every day through sins both venial and mortal.

If we reject JESUS, we close the gates of heaven on ourselves. We “choose” to say, No to JESUS, despite HIS dieing for our sins. HIS death was our gift of salvation “if” we choose to be saved by HIM. We do not have to so choose. We can reject as well.

So, the Mass is for those who choose JESUS, who embrace HIS sacrament of confession, penance and the Eucharist. Who wish to be close to JESUS and have HIM inside of our bodies, our minds, our hearts and our souls as often as we can.

The Mass is a day of rest, of sabbath. A day to rest in JESUS and reflect on our weakness, which is overcome in HIS sacrifice, if we choose to simply reach out our hearts and say, JESUS, I love you, please come into my heart and be mine.
 
If Jesus is True God and True Man - was His death a sacrifice? He’s God, He knew it wouldn’t be the end. He mortal self could be terrified but his God self knew the plan. He knew his suffering wasn’t forever. He knew death wasn’t forever. So what was his sacrifice?
 
If Jesus is True God and True Man - was His death a sacrifice? He’s God, He knew it wouldn’t be the end. He mortal self could be terrified but his God self knew the plan. He knew his suffering wasn’t forever. He knew death wasn’t forever. So what was his sacrifice?
Do you not think the pain of the beating, scourging, having nails hammered through His hands and feet, and being crucified hurt? Jesus suffered and died, His soul seperated from His body. That was the sacrifice. It wasn’t all necessary though. Since all of His actions are infinite the blood shed at His circumcision would have been enough to satisfy the debt of man. The rest was so that we would never forget how much He loved us.
 
Do you not think the pain of the beating, scourging, having nails hammered through His hands and feet, and being crucified hurt? Jesus suffered and died, His soul seperated from His body. That was the sacrifice. It wasn’t all necessary though. Since all of His actions are infinite the blood shed at His circumcision would have been enough to satisfy the debt of man. The rest was so that we would never forget how much He loved us.
All humans suffer (some more and some longer) and all humans die - HE was secure in the knowledge He was also God.
 
If He didn’t have the knowledge then how could he be truly God as well as truly man? God is omniscient.
 
All humans suffer (some more and some longer) and all humans die - HE was secure in the knowledge He was also God.
Yes but not all of their suffering is redemptive. God did not have to suffer

It may be best to start with why he suffered.

Sin is measured by who is offended. When Adam and Eve sinned against God they accumulated an infinite debt, as god is infinite so was the offense against Him. Adam and Eve, and all humanity now owe God an infinite debt they cannot repay because they are finite. The only one who can pay an infinite debt is someone who is infinite—only God is infinite-- but out of justice the debt needs to be paid by the one who owes it—humanity owes it. God assumed a human nature, into His divine person… This allowed Him to pay the debt, in full because he is God, and it to be payed by who owes, because He was man.
He did not owe the debt, but because of Hid great love for us, He became man, suffered, and died to pay a debt we never could.
 
Are you sure? If He was so secure why did He say this:
He knew He was God.

When Jesus took on our sins he felt and suffered all of them. He knew not only what it felt like to be blind but what every blind man felt. He also took on the sins of the atheist and knew what it felt like to be one. This instance, you quote, is Jesus proclaiming what all of those who have felt abandoned by God feel. He cries out in the pain at the suffering the loss of God all atheist feel. He would have suffered all of the suffering of all of the atheist who had ever lived. This is why He cries out.

He doesn’t forget who He is but is suffering the pain of others.
 
I believe this was his way of dying for our sins. I don’t have all the answers to why God does the things he does. But we will know someday.
 
Yes but not all of their suffering is redemptive. God did not have to suffer

It may be best to start with why he suffered.

Sin is measured by who is offended. When Adam and Eve sinned against God they accumulated an infinite debt, as god is infinite so was the offense against Him. Adam and Eve, and all humanity now owe God an infinite debt they cannot repay because they are finite. The only one who can pay an infinite debt is someone who is infinite—only God is infinite-- but out of justice the debt needs to be paid by the one who owes it—humanity owes it. God assumed a human nature, into His divine person… This allowed Him to pay the debt, in full because he is God, and it to be payed by who owes, because He was man.
He did not owe the debt, but because of Hid great love for us, He became man, suffered, and died to pay a debt we never could.
Some of it is redemptive, there are many examples of heroes that lay down their lives for another. Arlington National Cemetery has it’s share.

That is beside the point though. It is a debt that He pays himself. He was the architect of fall of man. He made man, gave him free will, made the snake and the apple. He is omniscient so he knew what would happen. It was a set up from the start. So where’s the sacrifice?
 
Matthew 26:37-40:
And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to grow sorrowful and to be sad. Then he says to them: My soul is sorrowful even unto death. Stay you here and watch with me. And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless, not as I will but as you will. And he comes to his disciples and finds them asleep.
Luke’s version (22:41-44):
And kneeling down, he prayed. Saying: Father, if you will, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but yours be done. And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony, he prayed the longer. And his sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground.
Was the agony in the garden unnecessary, given His divinity? Or was it more a terrifying indicator of just how painfully heavy the extent and burden of our sin must have been (to have made even God sweat w/foreknowledge)? He is still a human, remember.
 
Some of it is redemptive, there are many examples of heroes that lay down their lives for another. Arlington National Cemetery has it’s share.

That is beside the point though. It is a debt that He pays himself. He was the architect of fall of man. He made man, gave him free will, made the snake and the apple. He is omniscient so he knew what would happen. It was a set up from the start. So where’s the sacrifice?
Sueefering is only redemptive if a person is in a state-of-grace and unites the suffering with Christ’s. Man has no power to redeem on his own. You must distinguish between natural and supernatural good acts.

I have explained the sacrifice. Why do you asking the same question?

All of your questioins can be answered but instead of you constantly changing the focus why don’t you lay out the problems you see and we can discuss them systematically.
 
The basic question is why does God create a debt for Man that only God can pay in order to just then pay the debt Himself. He’s omnipotent He knew everything that would happen. He creates a problem that He is the only solution. It seems like a way to keep us in debt. I don’t see the benevolence in it. Why have us incur the debt to begin with?

Why did Jesus have to die and be reborn ( to save us from sin)
Why do we sin ( because of the fall of man)
Why did man fall (free will)
Why do we need free will ( so we can love God fully)
Why do we need to love God fully ( because that’s why he created us)
Why don’t we just love him (because we’re sinful)
why are we sinful ( Because of the fall of Man)
Why did Man fall ( because we have free will)
How can man be saved ( through the Death and Resurrection of Jesus) etc
 
Matthew 26:37-40:

Luke’s version (22:41-44):

Was the agony in the garden unnecessary, given His divinity? Or was it more a terrifying indicator of just how painfully heavy the extent and burden of our sin must have been (to have made even God sweat w/foreknowledge)? He is still a human, remember.
I see this as example of his Human Nature being rightfully terrified but if He’s also true God he knows that it is only temporary and for a greater good. KNOWs this we have to take it as a matter of hope and faith that when we die and when we suffer it’s part of Gods plan - He Knew it - It was His plan. What is miraculous to an audience is craft and routine to the performer. His death seems like a sacrifice from our perspective because it is terrifying to us. (and to His Human self) but to His God self just a blip.
 
The basic question is why does God create a debt for Man that only God can pay in order to just then pay the debt Himself. He’s omnipotent He knew everything that would happen. He creates a problem that He is the only solution. It seems like a way to keep us in debt. I don’t see the benevolence in it. Why have us incur the debt to begin with?
Good question.

God does not create the debt man does. If I go and burn down a house the home owner did not create the debt I did.

Did God know man would sin, yes. Did he make him sin, no. God gives each man the grace to live a sinless life. It is not His fault if people do not cooperate with the grace.

God did not need to create man He had no need for man. God is perfecty happy inside His trinitarian perfection. He created so that He could share His love and perfection with others. It was an act of Charity and Love, just as those who give from their wealth to others, yet there were no others so God had to create them.

He made man with free will. Free will is necessary for moral universe. There is no merit in choosing God if one cannot reject God. You cannot force love and love must be a free choice. God gave and still gives man the choice. There can be no chance at Heaven if Hell is not an option.
 
I was not sure where to post this, but here’s my question:
I understand that Christ died for all of us and paid the price for our sins. The only thing I was wondering about was exactly how this was accomplished. In what way exactly did Jesus dying on the cross pay for our sins? How did Jesus’s passion make it so that we can enter into heaven. In addition to this, I was wondering what role does the mass have if our sins have already been paid for?
Thanks for any responses
28After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. 29Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. 30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

What was finished? What are the “All things were now accomplished”? An incomplete atonement? An incomplete redemption? What was in the cup He had to drink? Was it not the wrath of God that was meant for all the Christians throughout the ages and into the future? Was a single drop of wrath left in the cup? So what was finished? Why did Jesus sit at the right hand of God instead of standing daily to make sacrifices like the other High priests?

Look what Hebrews 9 says: " 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

How many sins did He bear? A few, some, not enough? notice He was offered up ONCE to BEAR the sins OF MANY, which indicates He did not bear the sin of ALL as many suppose; that is not what the Word says and it is not the reality either for many are headed and are already in hell. He atoned for the sons of God, saints, redemmed of God, the saved, true believers. How many sacrafices were necessary to accomplish that? Many were offered in the OT through animal sacrafices, but God said that only covered, not remove, temporarily, but when God offered up His Son who bore the wrath the Christian deserves; God no longer sees the sins of the Christian; that was already paid; He now see those who are IN CHRIST. You will see the phrase “IN CHRIST” many many times in the NT because if one is IN CHRIST that man or woman has a RIGHT standing before the Father because of the Son who redemmed the Christian by paying a ransom that was PRICELESS in the Father’s sight because it was His Son, Christ Jesus.

IOW, our lack of righteousness or sin or evil or rebellion was poured out on Christ, which is why the Bible says “He was made sin”. Why was He made sin; He did nothing wrong? The same way why does a Christian have aRight standing before God? He has done nithing right except rebell against God. Because Jesus was made sin to pay the price Christians deserve, which is God’s eternal wrath so that by bearing that wrath He could IMPUTE or give as a gift eternal life through His righteousness onto the Christian. Jesus did it once and for all time; no more sacrafices to atone for sin; He paid what the Father demanded and SATISFIED the Father through His work; He went to the cross to do away with scrafices. God has removed the Christians into the deepest depths of the ocean, as far as the east is from the west and God said He remembers them no more.

So someone comes and says, why not just sin away then, did not Paul address that. What fool would want to sin against the One who saved Him from God’s wrath? That fool would prove himself a stupid fool and have no love for the One who paid a debt so large; He could never repay it; uet Christ did it once because as John Piper as put it “Jesus if INFINITELY worthy” above all things, Jesus value outweighs all of creation which is why His one-time sacrafice for sins, wrath and atonement, reconciliation, redemption - you name it, it is finsihed once and for all the redeemed of God.
 
Good question.

God does not create the debt man does…
Sure God created the debt - he created everything. There is no debt without God creating it. EVERYTHING is his creation. He created the game. He created the rules. He created the players.

There is no Devil without God creating it. There is no temptation without God creating it. There is no sin without God creating it. There is no need for redemption without God creating it.
 
I see this as example of his Human Nature being rightfully terrified but if He’s also true God he knows that it is only temporary and for a greater good. KNOWs this we have to take it as a matter of hope and faith that when we die and when we suffer it’s part of Gods plan - He Knew it - It was His plan. What is miraculous to an audience is craft and routine to the performer. His death seems like a sacrifice from our perspective because it is terrifying to us. (and to His Human self) but to His God self just a blip.
It was not His plan for man to fall, it was His plan to make man in His image, with free will in a moral universe. Man fell and God planned to redeem Him.

The two natures in the Divine Person were necessary fo pay the deb.t It was a merciful-God became man and did not have to-- and just-- because of the human nature, the debt was payed by man.

The weight of all of the sins of humanity weighed down on his Divine and human nature(s). He knew what He would suffer and it would have been terrifying for His human nature but choosing Chairty He acted.

He acted and redeemed man through His human nature. It is not as though God died. But His human nature was assumed into the Divine person giving it infinite value.

So yes, as God He would not have been afraid.
 
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