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catholic1seeks
Guest
PURGATORY AND TEMPEROL PUNISHMENT: Christ’s sufferings were sufficient to cover every consequence of sin. If this is true, why do temperol punishments still remain (even after our sins are forgiven)? The best answer is that God resembles loving parents who want their children to learn from their mistakes.
**FROM CATHOLIC ANSWERS: **
Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for “nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, “unclean.” Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.
It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.
**FROM CATHOLIC ANSWERS: **
Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for “nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, “unclean.” Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.
It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
This should answer the Purgatory part… 
**FROM CATHOLIC ANSWERS: **
HOW TO ARGUE THE EXISTENCE OF PURGATORY
**But purgatory implies that Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient, that he didn’t finish the work of redemption on Calvary. Why do Catholics feel the need to add to it by doing more work in purgatory? **
This objection is based on a pair of erroneous presumptions: That progressive sanctification and suffering take away from Christ’s work on Calvary and that the Church teaches that purgatory is work.
To address the second objection first, purgatory is not a place for those bad Catholics who didn’t finish working their way to heaven while on earth. “For by grace you have been saved by faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8–9). The purification that takes place in purgatory is purely a work of God’s grace, since there is no chance for merit after death, and the judgment of each individual is based solely upon their earthly life. But regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected.
Though Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s sins 2,000 years ago, the sanctification process in the life of each Christian continues. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul tells the faithful, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” According to Scripture, sanctification is a thing of the past (1 Cor. 6:11), present (1 Thess. 4:3), and future (1 Thess. 5:23) in the Christian life.
This process often involves suffering, as Paul indicates: “Let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus as the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross. . . . ‘My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. [God] disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it” (Heb. 12:1–12).
Therefore, the presence of suffering does not detract from Christ’s sacrifice. In fact, there is only one mention in all of Scripture of something “lacking in Christ’s afflictions,” and that missing link is the suffering of his mystical body, the Church (Col. 1:24).
**FROM CATHOLIC ANSWERS: **
HOW TO ARGUE THE EXISTENCE OF PURGATORY
**But purgatory implies that Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient, that he didn’t finish the work of redemption on Calvary. Why do Catholics feel the need to add to it by doing more work in purgatory? **
This objection is based on a pair of erroneous presumptions: That progressive sanctification and suffering take away from Christ’s work on Calvary and that the Church teaches that purgatory is work.
To address the second objection first, purgatory is not a place for those bad Catholics who didn’t finish working their way to heaven while on earth. “For by grace you have been saved by faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8–9). The purification that takes place in purgatory is purely a work of God’s grace, since there is no chance for merit after death, and the judgment of each individual is based solely upon their earthly life. But regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected.
Though Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s sins 2,000 years ago, the sanctification process in the life of each Christian continues. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul tells the faithful, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” According to Scripture, sanctification is a thing of the past (1 Cor. 6:11), present (1 Thess. 4:3), and future (1 Thess. 5:23) in the Christian life.
This process often involves suffering, as Paul indicates: “Let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus as the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross. . . . ‘My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. [God] disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it” (Heb. 12:1–12).
Therefore, the presence of suffering does not detract from Christ’s sacrifice. In fact, there is only one mention in all of Scripture of something “lacking in Christ’s afflictions,” and that missing link is the suffering of his mystical body, the Church (Col. 1:24).
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Odell
Guest
A couple questions for sandusky
How is bowing down to Mary not excepting Jesus?
In Revelation ch 3:9 it says we me and you those in heaven will be bowed before
Would God be comanding something that we should not be doing does this some how mean those who do this gesture don’t except Jesus? If so why would God command this? If Not then what is your point bowing down isn’t worship it doesn’t destract us from God. So what is your point?
Question 2
What does it mean to pray? And why do you think those in heaven are dead? I was always told it is a new life and we are fellow citizens with them.
Question 3
Most protestants believe in the concept of purgatory they just don’t have a word for it
So I’m willing to bet you think your sins are coverd do you get in with those sins coverd or does Jesus do something more than just cover those sins for those in heaven?
And what makes you think your interpretation is better than mine?
How is bowing down to Mary not excepting Jesus?
In Revelation ch 3:9 it says we me and you those in heaven will be bowed before
Would God be comanding something that we should not be doing does this some how mean those who do this gesture don’t except Jesus? If so why would God command this? If Not then what is your point bowing down isn’t worship it doesn’t destract us from God. So what is your point?
Question 2
What does it mean to pray? And why do you think those in heaven are dead? I was always told it is a new life and we are fellow citizens with them.
Question 3
Most protestants believe in the concept of purgatory they just don’t have a word for it
So I’m willing to bet you think your sins are coverd do you get in with those sins coverd or does Jesus do something more than just cover those sins for those in heaven?
And what makes you think your interpretation is better than mine?
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ajatkinson
Guest
Why are we being punished after our forgiveness anyhow? Would you ever forgive someone for something and then get vengeance after the fact?
Temporal punishments remain in THIS life so that we have incentive to avoid err and the same sins again. Temporal punishment in PURGATORY would serve no purpose because one is no longer able to sin or change their life once they are dead. The temporal punishment is NOT designed to pay the price for our sin, or to purify us in this life, for if it does of what use is Christ’s grace? Could one not simply suffer temporal punishment in this life and in purgatory and avoid Christ’s grace altogether if that were the case? Seriously, we do suffer for our sins, but saying we do so for salvation is saying Christ did not stand in our place so that we avoided being punished for our sins. God does not punish us for our sins so much as he allows the consequences of our sins to remain so that we do not continue living sinfully!
On the Saints, there is veneration and adoration, Dulia (for Saints), Hyperdulia (for Mary), and Latria (For God). All are considered versions of “worship”. If you don’t believe me, google “Hyperdulia worship” and you’ll find it mentioned in a few reputable sources.Here is a post from your own forum which confirms this: nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-116335.288.html
My opinion, Catholics should admit they do in fact “worship” saints/Mary. If they want to explain it further that is fine and I would most definitely recommend doing so to avoid ridicule. But if saying “We worship the Virgin Mary” makes you uncomfortable or uneasy, I would recommend doing some “soul-searching” and meditation over Catholicisms core beliefs and deciding what you believe.
God bless,
AJ
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ncgolf
Guest
The core of Catholic worship is the Mass. The liturgy of the Mass has not changed so you should be able to read all the prayers of the Mass by googling it.
If you find worship of the kind you describe in the Mass then post these findings.
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Evan
Guest
Why do you think we are being punished in purgatory. We are being purged.
Have you ever tried to lose weight? There is suffering but we WANT to endure the suffering so we can get into that new dress.
Have you ever wanted to get married? You have to suffer to fit into that bridal gown, but you want to be perfect for that guy who is going to take you for better or worse.
Have you ever wanted to stand before God? You have to suffer to be at your most beautiful when you first stand before the throne. Lose your earthly attachment to sin and live entirely for God, be in union with the will of God.
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Evan
Guest
OK, we worship Mary, I’ve even seen an old book “The worship of Mary” (more than a 100 years old).
Of course, in the days when we worshiped Mary, we adored God.
Now, as English has changed, the meaning of worship has changed. We no longer worship Judges, Parents, Police, or School teachers. We honor these people now, we Catholics, also honor Mary.
The value of worship has upgraded. It is now equal to adore. So we adore AND worship God.
We no longer worship Mary, but we honor her.
When you speak concerning an institution that is over 1900 years old, with a vocabulary going back before the existence of the English language (say 300 years), you have to determine when the phrase was used and what it meant to those speaking. Just as you do in any bible study class.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
The important thing to understand here is what the Church actually is, and how the Church actually works. Because understanding that the Church is the Body of Christ composed of all believers, on earth and in heaven, its easier to understand why we ask saints to pray for and with us. But if one thinks that salvation is a one-on-one thing between each person and Christ, then its a totally foreign concept. But reading the scripture, especially Revelations, would reveal that Christ meant for a communion of saints rather than a personal relationship.This post was taken on of the “…Converted when I was 19…” thread on the non-Catholic section. It maxed out and closed.
I think you have it backwards, sandy. We venerate Mary, ask the intercession of the saints, and believe in Purgatory BECAUSE his sacrifice is enough.
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Based off the quote that guanophore provided I have a hard time believing that Sandy is still around. He covered just about every anti-catholic whopper in a single sentence.
God bless
EDIT I see now that this thread is almost 3 years old.
God bless
EDIT I see now that this thread is almost 3 years old.
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Sonny69
Guest
Actually your own literature teaches that you worship Mary and what would Maryology be; if not worship? Spiritually speaking. Many Catholics will even recognize this; many just prefer the synonymous term venerate over worship, but they are the same.
You won’t find purgatory in any 66 books of the OT or NT writings nor any mention in the writings of the early church (first 2 centuries) If Christ sacrifice and atonement were enough, then “Being confident of this very thing: that he who hath begun a good work in you will perfect it unto the day of Christ Jesus.” {Philippians 1:6} would be believed and their would be no need for purgatory would there?
Salvation is of the Lord: and thy blessing is upon thy people. – Psalms 3:8
God bless you and I encourage all of you to sytemacically read the word of God everyday.
S69
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Sonny69
Guest
Probably explains why their is a narrow gate and a wide gate as Christ taught. The narrow gate admits one at a time and the wide gate allows everyone on board. I’ll choose the one-on-one relationship with the living and true God over the broad gate where everyone comes together.
To take the communion of the saints and have it destroy a one-on-one relationship with Christ is one of the grossest imposition on Scripture I have ever heard of and would never want to follow a theology like that. You should tear out John 17 from your Bible and toss it away because you just deemed it inaccurate.
If you do not have a personal relationship with Christ, then you have no relationship with Him and Him with you according to Scripture. Honestly I about fell out of my chair when I read that. I don’t think you can even find this strange teaching within the Catholic Church.
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GreggAlvarez
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GreggAlvarez
Guest
Oh, how mistaken you are… Not surprisingly though… I would be mistaken also if I had not known Truth…
Philippians 1:6 does not contradict anything in the Catholic Church. Not even close! That is like saying, “Christ’s work is sufficient so we do not need to do good works because the good work is done.”
Anyway, Christ’s sacrifice IS enough. He did not suffer so that we may not suffer. He suffered so that we might suffer with Him and show the world the Suffering of Love. He did not die so that we might not die. He died so that we may die with Him and in Him so that we might also be raised triumphantly and live with Him.
Purgatory is needed because nothing unclean shall enter Heaven… Or so the Catholic Church teaches… The teach from the Bible also you know… Now if nothing unclean shall enter Heaven, how will anybody enter Heaven when they die? They do die unclean as sinners. This is what Purgatory is for, that is to cleanse us of our iniquities. If we are truly humble (as the Bible commands in case you did not know), we would say, “Father, how can you let me into your Immaculate Kingdom among those whom are clean when I am dirty? But if it is your will that I be granted eternal life, can you cleanse me so that I may be worthy?” Looks to me like you would say, “I believed in Christ, now let me in.”
Purgatory is not necessarily a punishment. It is a cleansing of the soul. It is only seen as punishment by those who do not understand the doctrine. You fall into that category.
God bless
P.S. - There are more than 66 books to the Old Testament. You should actually read them. Very few non-Catholics have no idea what they are even objecting against. They are objecting against the Word of God. Interesting…
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GreggAlvarez
Guest
You completely misunderstood what Constantine meant. You assume that anything a Catholic says is falsified by the fact that they are Catholic. Your objection here proves my point that an anti-Catholic is the most bias of Christians. In any case, John 17 has nothing to with a personal relationship with Christ. It is Christ’s relationship with His Father!
Constantine did not meant that the communion of saints destroys a relationship with the Father. This again shows the ignorance anti-Catholics have against what they are ANTI_ against. Constantine knows more than you that the communion of saints is there FOR helping us in our salvation into Heaven. This salvation equals loving God and loving our neighbor as ourself. This in turn EQUALS a personal relationship AND an interpersonal relationship with Him. Saint Paul says himself, “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” (Somewhere in First Corinthians. Before you start to make assumptions, I read my Bible everyday, I just choose not to turn it into a textbook like anti-Catholics do by memorizing prooftexts.) Do you think that command stopped when he die? Certainly not. He is even more alive now than he was when was walking this planet!
You almost fell out of your chair because you clearly have no clue what Constantine meant.
The communion of saints is there for us to help us because they too are “of Christ.” Being devoted to saint means being devoted to Christ. “What you did to the least of these, you did to me.”
This is about the 5th or 6th time I have had to defend my own Catholic brethren because people have misunderstood them in a way that completely distorted anything they even meant.
God bless and find the peace and humility to love your neighbor as yourself.
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GreggAlvarez
Guest
So, because we respect, venerate, honor and bow down to Mary and the saints, we worship them? This is a double standard because you yourself kneel down when you pray right? If not, you should. You probably kneel down in front of a couch, bed, chair, Bible, etc… But it would be ridiculous for me or anybody to assert that you worship those things. You probably at least do have the Bible right in front of you when you pray, right? Or at least some times? Well, if you are going to make the harsh assumption that we worship Mary and Saints, then you are saying that you TOO worship a couch, bed, chair, or Bible… One could argue that the Bible is the Word of God. I would object that it is not. It represents the Word of God. But the Bible itself is NOT the Word of God, Christ is. The Bible is a book, more precisely a set of books. Does that denigrate it? Absolutely not! But, the Bible itself represents the Word of God. IT is NOT the Word of God.
Here is your go-to Bible verse about bowing down and worshipping: Revelations 22:8 says that John “fell down TO WORSHIP at the feet of the angel.” The act of bowing down only signified respect but John took it a little too far and was actually going to worship the angel. The angel then corrected him because he too is a servant of God.
Your opinion is wrong unless you want to admit that you yourself worship what you bow down in front of: a book, chair, wall, bed, couch, table, etc… This is funny; Anti-Catholics and their double standards.
Saying “We worship the Virgin Mary” (in the contemporary usage as someone has pointed out) does make us uneasy because it is not true, but you could care less what we say because you have your mind made up and will not believe us no matter what we say… That is, unless we say what you want us to say. I have done some soul-searching (and still do every single day) and some meditation on Catholic doctrine and found it to be the Truth. There is no question that it is the Truth.
I do not “decide” what to believe nor do I believe what I want believe. I just believe what is taught as Truth. And Christ is the embodiment of Truth and the Catholic Church is the protector of the Truth. The Catholic Church is the only one that teaches Truth.
You need to figure if you are believing what you want to believe or if you want to come to what has taught, does teach and will teach the Truth since the time Christ.
God bless and find Truth.
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kbachler
Guest
But the argumet doesn’t address the real issue. The question isn’t whether “the presence of suffering detracts from Christ’s sacrifice”, the question is “if there is assumed suffering after death for the purpose of santification, does it detract from Christ’s sacrifice?”This should answer the Purgatory part…
**FROM CATHOLIC ANSWERS: **
HOW TO ARGUE THE EXISTENCE OF PURGATORY
**But purgatory implies that Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient, that he didn’t finish the work of redemption on Calvary. Why do Catholics feel the need to add to it by doing more work in purgatory? **
This objection is based on a pair of erroneous presumptions: That progressive sanctification and suffering take away from Christ’s work on Calvary and that the Church teaches that purgatory is work.
To address the second objection first, purgatory is not a place for those bad Catholics who didn’t finish working their way to heaven while on earth. “For by grace you have been saved by faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8–9). The purification that takes place in purgatory is purely a work of God’s grace, since there is no chance for merit after death, and the judgment of each individual is based solely upon their earthly life. But regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected.
Though Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s sins 2,000 years ago, the sanctification process in the life of each Christian continues. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul tells the faithful, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” According to Scripture, sanctification is a thing of the past (1 Cor. 6:11), present (1 Thess. 4:3), and future (1 Thess. 5:23) in the Christian life.
This process often involves suffering, as Paul indicates: “Let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus as the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross. . . . ‘My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. [God] disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it” (Heb. 12:1–12).
Therefore, the presence of suffering does not detract from Christ’s sacrifice. In fact, there is only one mention in all of Scripture of something “lacking in Christ’s afflictions,” and that missing link is the suffering of his mystical body, the Church (Col. 1:24).
Those are two very different problems, and I don’t think you argument comes close to addressing the actual question, which is the second one.
The reason for discipline is growth. I discipline a child (or myself) so that the child (or I) grow as a person - IN THIS LIFETIME.
I don’t see where your argument address this except to say: " The purification that takes place in purgatory is purely a work of God’s grace, since there is no chance for merit after death, and the judgment of each individual is based solely upon their earthly life."
But this very sentence implies that Christ’s sanctification is incomplete UNTIL something happens in purgatory - doesn’t it?
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GreggAlvarez
Guest
Nope.
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Michael_Francis
Guest
**You folks do realize that Sandusky was banned quite a while ago and that this thread has been dead for about 2 1/2 years?
It’s always a good idea to look at the date of the last post when you find an old thread you want to post on.
Usually, the original people are no longer much interested or may even have left the forums completely.
Sincerely,**
It’s always a good idea to look at the date of the last post when you find an old thread you want to post on.
Usually, the original people are no longer much interested or may even have left the forums completely.
Sincerely,**
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TinaG
Guest
Hi!
This poor little thread looks like it could use some help!
What absurd statement do you want me to make so that you can rip it to pieces?
I don’t understand these issues at all so I am willing to obfuscate and be unreasonable…
Let me try something!!! Oooh, Oooh! I know!!!
Isn’t death ENOUGH?
I also know a Mexican Catholic lady who insists Mary IS divine. I watched a parish DRE and a priest try to correct her but she would have none of it! It was FASCINATING to watch!!!
Does that help?
-Tina “Feeling Argumentative” G
This poor little thread looks like it could use some help!
What absurd statement do you want me to make so that you can rip it to pieces?
I don’t understand these issues at all so I am willing to obfuscate and be unreasonable…
Let me try something!!! Oooh, Oooh! I know!!!
Isn’t death ENOUGH?
I also know a Mexican Catholic lady who insists Mary IS divine. I watched a parish DRE and a priest try to correct her but she would have none of it! It was FASCINATING to watch!!!
Does that help?
-Tina “Feeling Argumentative” G
- Status