Chronology of events around the Nativity

[Findlaybob]

A couple of weeks ago, I was meditating on the Joyful mysteries and developed some confusion as to how the events of Jesus’ pre and perinatal life went along, Particularly, how the presentation of Jesus in the temple fit into everything. This is what I came up with but would like to know if I got this wrong and in what manner I may be mistaken.

First, the Annunciation occurs, in Nazareth and Jesus is conceived at or around that time. Shortly thereafter, Mary receives work that Elizabeth is pregnant and she travels to visit her (near Jerusalem, about 150km away?). Mary stays for a few months, helping Elizabeth through the delivery and early infancy period of John the Baptist.

Then Mary leaves and heads back to Nazareth, she would be well into her pregnancy at this point (4-6 months?). Once back in Nazareth, it is not long before Joseph gets word and tells her that then need to haul back to Bethlehem for the census (not to far from Jerusalem, so roughly another 150km trip).

Mary gives birth to Jesus promptly upon arrival in Bethlehem, with such urgency that it necessitates living in livestock quarters briefly. Jesus is presented in the temple for consecration. Would this be at a synagogue in Bethlehem, or “The Temple” in Jerusalem? Either way, Mary and Joseph wind up back in Bethlehem in more suitable living quarters.

Within a few months, or maybe a year, the Magi present themselves to Herod (in Jerusalem), Herod gets wind of Jesus and awakened to the scripture prophesies around his birth. The Magi make way to Bethlehem and Herod waits for them to return before making plans to seek out Jesus to kill Him.

The Magi make the short trip to Bethlehem (15-20km?) and visit Jesus and The Holy Family, presening them with expensive gifts. Shortly (days) after the Magi leave, Joseph gets a dream to head with his family to Egypt(400-500km?). He funds this trip and their life in Egypt for several months to a couple of years.

Herod orders the massacre of the innocents within a few months of the departure of the Holy Family from Bethlehem (after realizing he’s been snubbed by the Magi). Herod dies within a year or two of the massacre and Joseph is instructed to return to Nazareth (~400-500km?).

Is this it? If so, all the moving around by foot/donkey gives me new respect for Joseph and Mary.

Thanks in advance for any clarifications.

 

[TK421]

Yes. Herod doesn’t pick up on the deception from the Magi in time to kill Jesus. Lots of traveling and moving.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Mary receives work that Elizabeth is pregnant and she travels to visit her (near Jerusalem, about 150km away?).

Just to clarify, the angel himself told Mary about Elizabeth’s pregnancy.

As for the timeline of the other events, well… there is a lot of speculation because the gospels don’t give an exact timeline. So it is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, the events are as follows: Mary returns to Nazareth before the birth of John the Baptist, stays there then goes with Joseph to Bethlehem due to the census, gives birth to Jesus, the circumcision of Jesus takes place there, the Magi visit them there, the holy family goes to Jerusalem for the presentation to the Temple after the days of her purification, the holy family returns to Nazareth, the angel advises them to escape, they flee to Egypt through the wilderness (not through main roads that go through any big cities), the Innocents are gathered form various cities and massacred in Jerusalem, the holy family stays for at least a few years in Egypt (past the death of Herod), they return to Nazareth, Jesus grows and stays behind at the Jerusalem Temple at age 12, Jesus has his Bar mitzvah in Nazareth at age 13. Just my opinion.

 

[TryingtoGainFaith]

I just want to emphasize that Findleybob errored in his understanding at the purification of Mary. Circumcision was done on 7th day, but presentation at Jerusalem was likely on 40th day, I am sure others will post the exact days as per Old Testament rituals.

 

[Findlaybob]

Thank you all for the quick comments. This is my first posting on CAF and I expected a few days before any meaningful replies.

Sorry for the few typos and incomplete sentences, I try proof-reading in the future.

 

[BartholomewB]

Jesus is presented in the temple for consecration. Would this be at a synagogue in Bethlehem, or “The Temple” in Jerusalem?

Only the Temple in Jerusalem is ever referred to as “the Temple,” I think. A synagogue isn’t a temple.

 

[EndTimes]

A couple of weeks ago, I was meditating on the Joyful mysteries and developed some confusion as to how the events of Jesus’ pre and perinatal life went along, Particularly, how the presentation of Jesus in the temple fit into everything.

It fits into what Joseph and Mary were required to do via Mosaic Law

_

 

[Gorgias]

In my opinion, the events are as follows: Mary returns to Nazareth before the birth of John the Baptist

Yet, Gabriel tells Mary that Elizabeth is “in her sixth month”. After traveling to the hill country, Mary stays with her for three months. It would seem that she’s there for John’s birth.

Jesus has his Bar mitzvah in Nazareth at age 13.

They didn’t have “bar mitzvah” in those days, did they? Isn’t that a much more recent innovation?

 

[Dan_Defender]

They didn’t have “bar mitzvah” in those days, did they? Isn’t that a much more recent innovation?

According to Orthodox Jews, it is a very old tradition. Apparently, the first person to have one was Isaac, son of Abraham.

 

[paperwight]

[

In my opinion, the events are as follows: Mary returns to Nazareth before the birth of John the Baptist

Yet, Gabriel tells Mary that Elizabeth is “in her sixth month”. After traveling to the hill country, Mary stays with her for three months. It would seem that she’s there for John’s birth.

[/quote]

I sometimes idly wonder, though We are not told she was there for the birth, but on the other hand, speaking on a human level, if you were an older lady giving birth and being older, had every reason to believe it would be physically hard, wouldn’t you want to spare a young pregnant girl witnessing it, so as not to frighten her for when her time came? I’m not convinced Mary stayed there for the birth, as surely it would have been made clear, not just written as ‘she stayed there about three months’.

 

[Dan_Defender]

wouldn’t you want to spare a young pregnant girl witnessing it, so as not to frighten her for when her time came? I’m not convinced Mary stayed there for the birth,

There is also the opinion that it was Jewish custom for virgins not to remain at the time of delivery. The midwives of that time were not virgins. But of course it is debatable.

 

[Gorgias]

According to Orthodox Jews, it is a very old tradition. Apparently, the first person to have one was Isaac, son of Abraham.

As a “bar mitzvah”, per se?

if you were an older lady giving birth and being older, had every reason to believe it would be physically hard, wouldn’t you want to spare a young pregnant girl witnessing it, so as not to frighten her for when her time came?

The question isn’t “was Mary in the room to witness the birth?”, so much as it is “was she there for the birth?”. Six months + travel time + three months seems to say “yes”.

I’m not convinced Mary stayed there for the birth, as surely it would have been made clear, not just written as ‘she stayed there about three months’.

Except that she was already “in her sixth month” when Gabriel appeared to Mary, and it would have taken Mary a bit of time to travel there…

 

[Dan_Defender]

According to Orthodox Jews, it is a very old tradition. Apparently, the first person to have one was Isaac, son of Abraham.

well I am sure the event has changed over time… just like Christians were baptized naked and dipping in an octagon-shaped pool at one point but not anymore… but the spirit of the event is the same, again according to Orthodox Jews

 

[Richard_White]

I think that it is unnecessary to concern ourselves with the exact timeline of the birth of Our Lord considering that the Infancy Narratives are theologically true, but not necessarily historically accurate. The bottom line is that Jesus was born in time, that He is the Son of God, and that He is our Savior. The exactitudes of the narrative are not important, because they are almost assuredly narrative creations meant to tie together the theological experience of early Christians as they began to ponder more deeply the origins of Jesus. I would suggest taking a look at Raymond E. Brown’s landmark work The Birth of the Messiah for a complete study of this topic, as well as the articles on the Biblical Archeology Society website (if you have a subscription or access through an institution).

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to be a dissenting voice. I only bring this up because I think that it is important to know the true history of the Bible and what scholars (Catholic and otherwise) are saying about its composition. This way, we can focus on the important messages therein, and not concern ourselves with things that aren’t so important, like the exact timeline of Jesus’ birth.

May God bless you all! Merry Christmas!

 

[EndTimes]

They didn’t have “bar mitzvah” in those days, did they? Isn’t that a much more recent innovation?

Exactly …

**The modern (Rabbinal Judaism) method of celebrating becoming a bar mitzvah **
did not even exist in the time of the Hebrew Bible, and Mishnah and Talmud.

Fact is, Early Rabbinic sources specify 13 as the age at which a boy becomes a legal adult;
however, the celebration of this occasion is not mentioned until the Middle Ages.

The form of “religion” practiced during the time of Jesus - precedes modern Rabinical Judaism by Centuries… and is falsely referred to by some as being Judaism… It is not.

Jesus’ Presentation at the Temple is of Mosaic Law - and Moses was a Hebrew. .

When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”

 

[Vico]

Gorgias:

They didn’t have “bar mitzvah” in those days, did they? Isn’t that a much more recent innovation?

According to Orthodox Jews, it is a very old tradition. Apparently, the first person to have one was Isaac, son of Abraham.

The age of majority from ancient times for Jews is age 20. In Bar Mitzvah, a History Rabbi Michael Hilton says:

• The synagogue ceremony was first recorded in thirteenth-century northern France.
• There was no bar mitzvah in ancient times, no ceremony and no party.

https://jps.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/HiltonExcerpt.pdf

 

[EndTimes]

all the moving around by foot/donkey gives me new respect for Joseph and Mary.

Even today… getting from one place at distance to another - soley by foot - still exists in places

Merry Birthday of The Messiah of All~