Chronology of Jesus' infancy?

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You are conflating different censuses. The census of Caesar Augustus which occurred in the 752nd year of Rome, and in the final years of the reign of Caesar Augustus was not for tax purposes, but merely for counting purposes. This is the census the Evangelist clearly speaks of in Matt 2:1. The censuses of Quirinus were for Tax purposes. The Evangelist only mentions this census to date the Augustan census, and to give its historical precedence and procedure. But it is not the census that caused Our Lady and St. Joseph to journey to Bethlehem, it was the Augustan census. see here. Yes, it’s strange that we have to go to the Protestant churches nowadays to get orthodox biblical exegesis, as so many liberal Catholic ones have abandoned truth in favor of their own conceits. 😦
Hear hear! 👍

Liberal exegesis is a house built on sand.

Where Marat and Electric Mayhem go astray is to presume that all the THEORIES of the fashionable agnostic Liberal Scholars are true, and that anything written in the Bible is FALSE if it is contradicted by anything from any other source whatsoever, no matter how rare or obscure that source.

If you start off from the presumption that the Gospel writers were fantasists or the inventor of stories or even worse, liars, then the whole basis of faith must soon fly out the window too. Most of the alleged contradictions raised (one colt or two), (in what order did the Holy family make their journeys) are nonsense, based on being excessively literal when it suits. eg. “The gospel says a colt, not two, that’s a contradiction!” No it isn’t. “The bride took a car to the wedding.” doesn’t mean that “Three cars took people to the wedding” is a contradiction! BOTH are true.
 
Hear hear! 👍

Liberal exegesis is a house built on sand.

Where Marat and Electric Mayhem go astray is to presume that all the THEORIES of the fashionable agnostic Liberal Scholars are true, and that anything written in the Bible is FALSE if it is contradicted by anything from any other source whatsoever, no matter how rare or obscure that source.

If you start off from the presumption that the Gospel writers were fantasists or the inventor of stories or even worse, liars, then the whole basis of faith must soon fly out the window too. Most of the alleged contradictions raised (one colt or two), (in what order did the Holy family make their journeys) are nonsense, based on being excessively literal when it suits. eg. “The gospel says a colt, not two, that’s a contradiction!” No it isn’t. “The bride took a car to the wedding.” doesn’t mean that “Three cars took people to the wedding” is a contradiction! BOTH are true.
RESPONSE:

When something historical is described in the scripture, if scripture is divinely inspired, it actually happened.

If not, a whole host of problems are created. For example, did Jesus Resurrection actually happend or are we only being “excessively literal” to believe that?
 
Hear hear! 👍

Liberal exegesis is a house built on sand.

Where Marat and Electric Mayhem go astray is to presume that all the THEORIES of the fashionable agnostic Liberal Scholars are true, and that anything written in the Bible is FALSE if it is contradicted by anything from any other source whatsoever, no matter how rare or obscure that source.

If you start off from the presumption that the Gospel writers were fantasists or the inventor of stories or even worse, liars, then the whole basis of faith must soon fly out the window too. Most of the alleged contradictions raised (one colt or two), (in what order did the Holy family make their journeys) are nonsense, based on being excessively literal when it suits. eg. “The gospel says a colt, not two, that’s a contradiction!” No it isn’t. “The bride took a car to the wedding.” doesn’t mean that “Three cars took people to the wedding” is a contradiction! BOTH are true.
It almost seems as if the destructive liberal mis-interpreters of Vatican II, being shot down by JPII, and Pope Benedict, have all migrated to historical/critical analysis of Scripture, again misunderstanding the intent of Divino Afflante Spiritu They seem hell-bent on scandalizing and undermining the Faith of anyone who will give them ear. However, they will be shot down by Pope Benedict too. Already his book “Jesus of Nazareth.” fatally wounds them, while his second volume, still not published, on the Infancy of Jesus should put them to eternal rest! 🙂
 
RESPONSE:

When something historical is described in the scripture, if scripture is divinely inspired, it actually happened.
Is there any support for such a broad statement? It’s an interesting theory - not what the church teaches, but interesting. Saying this denies the authors (and God) the right to use fiction as a vehicle for revelation. Dei Verbum specifically allows for this. Saying that a truth can’t be taught using fiction also denies the use of parables.
If not, a whole host of problems are created. For example, did Jesus Resurrection actually happend or are we only being “excessively literal” to believe that?
The belief in such things is purely a matter of faith - there is no reason, need, or possibility of “proving” any of them.
 
Is there any support for such a broad statement? It’s an interesting theory - not what the church teaches, but interesting. Saying this denies the authors (and God) the right to use fiction as a vehicle for revelation. Dei Verbum specifically allows for this. Saying that a truth can’t be taught using fiction also denies the use of parables.

The belief in such things is purely a matter of faith - there is no reason, need, or possibility of “proving” any of them.
RESPONSE:

I’m afraid it is precisely what the Church presently teaches.

Historical happened. Fiction did not happen. If the bible represents one as the other, it is in error.

Dei Verbum 1964
"To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to “literary forms”. For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture.

Do you see “fiction” listed? Where in DV?

Providentissimus Deus 1893
“Inspiration Incompatible with Error”
  1. The principles here laid down will apply cognate sciences, and especially to History.
 
I’m afraid it is precisely what the Church presently teaches.
No, actually the church does no such thing and the church is quite clear that the bible contains many literary forms other than historical writing.
Historical happened. Fiction did not happen.
You are correct about that. However, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the truth of the teaching. Even Jesus used fictional stories in his teachings.
If the bible represents one as the other, it is in error.
The bible seldom represents itself as to its literary form. And fiction is a perfectly acceptable vehicle for revelation, whether the story “sounds like” an actual event or not. Are Jesus’ stories the telling of historical events? Are you the judge of what “sounds” historical? Are you a better scripture scholar than Raymond Brown, John Meier, Ronald Witherup, or Joseph A. Fitzmyer, all of whom write under the imprimatur and nihil obstat?
Dei Verbum 1964
"To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to “literary forms”. For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture.

Do you see “fiction” listed? Where in DV?
Do you see " variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse"???
Providentissimus Deus 1893
“Inspiration Incompatible with Error”
Let’s try this one more time - fiction is not a synonym for lying, untruth, or error. Fiction is an important teaching tool. Fiction is a valid vehicle for revelation. The church only requires belief in the historicity of a small handful of scripture passages. Writing that “sounds like” history does not necessarily refer to a real event.
 
Quote:
I’m afraid it is precisely what the Church presently teaches.
No, actually the church does no such thing and the church is quite clear that the bible contains many literary forms other than historical writing.<<
RESPONSE:

Yes. The Bible contains many literary forms, but when the Bible presents something as history, it’s supposed to have really happened.

For example is “Jesus was raised from the dead” to be understood only as a literary form?

What about “This is my Body,” now there’s a potential metaphor, right?

And the virgin birth story can be taken as fiction?

All three were written as history. One shouldn’t become confused on that point.:mad:

JPM
 
Quote:
I’m afraid it is precisely what the Church presently teaches.
Where do you see such an absolute statement that was so obviously missed by so many of the church’s eminent scholars? You really think that anything that sounds like it could have happened must have happened if it is in the bible? You’ve never heard of historical fiction? You deny the authors the ability and the right to compose teaching stories?
Yes. The Bible contains many literary forms, but when the Bible presents something as history, it’s supposed to have really happened.
And just how does the bible present something as absolute history? If it speaks of anything happening, it must have happened? That is a bit extreme.
For example is “Jesus was raised from the dead” to be understood only as a literary form?
It could be but we accept that as an event which actually happened because the church has dogmatically defined it as a matter of required faith.
What about “This is my Body,” now there’s a potential metaphor, right?
It could be BUT we accept it as something else because the church has dogmatically defined it as a matter of required faith.
And the virgin birth story can be taken as fiction?
It could be BUT we accept it as something else because the church has dogmatically defined it as a matter of required faith.
All three were written as history.
Just what is the clue that tells you that? There are many similar stories written about others at that time which all sound like history.
One shouldn’t become confused on that point.
No one is confused because the church has specifically and dogmatically spoken on these issues NOT because they sound like history.
 
Quote:
I’m afraid it is precisely what the Church presently teaches.

Where do you see such an absolute statement that was so obviously missed by so many of the church’s eminent scholars? You really think that anything that sounds like it could have happened must have happened if it is in the bible? You’ve never heard of historical fiction? You deny the authors the ability and the right to compose teaching stories?

RESPONSE:

In a remarkable of number of papal encyclicals
  1. The principles here laid down will apply to cognate sciences, and especially to History. ……For, by supernatural power, He so moved and impelled them to write – He was so present to them – that the things which He ordered, and those only, they, first, rightly understood, then willed faithfully to write down, and finally expressed in apt words and with infallible truth. Otherwise, it could not be said that He was the Author of the entire Scripture. (Providentissimus deus)
  2. Those, too, who hold that the historical portions of Scripture do not rest on the **absolute truth of the facts **but merely upon what they are pleased to term their relative truth, namely, what people then commonly thought, are – no less than are the aforementioned critics – out of harmony with the Church’s teaching, (Spiritus paracletus)
 
And just how does the bible present something as absolute history? If it speaks of anything happening, it must have happened? That is a bit extreme.<<
RESPONSE: No. It’s common sense, unless you can accept that what scripture teaches as happening was in reality only fiction.

Quote:
For example is “Jesus was raised from the dead” to be understood only as a literary form?
It could be but we accept that as an event which actually happened because the church has dogmatically defined it as a matter of required faith.<<
Here’s where you get into circular reasoning. Then the founding of the Church may be fictional and not historical. If so, then the Church’s “dogmatic” definitions are backed by fiction. See the problem?

Quote:
What about “This is my Body,” now there’s a potential metaphor, right?
It could be BUT we accept it as something else because the church has dogmatically defined it as a matter of required faith.<<
RESPONSE:
The same problem if the church’s foundation has a fictional basis.

Quote:
And the virgin birth story can be taken as fiction?
It could be BUT we accept it as something else because the church has dogmatically defined it as a matter of required faith.<<
RESPONSE:
What proof do you have that a Church was ever founded to be “dogmatic”? Ittoo might be a fictional happening.
 
What do you see in the following accounts? Harmony? Contradiction? Would it be silly to reconcile them?

Gospel 1: There was a man who barely graduated high school. He enlisted in the Army as an infantryman and was discharged for acne. After this, he was living with his mom until she made him leave home. And so he ended up living in his car for a length of time. He went on to marry his wife in a courthouse ceremony, and lived in a townhouse.

Gospel 2: There was a man who, after graduating high school, enlisted in the Air Force as a computer programmer. He became a Body-for-LIFE Grand Champion and graduated college with a bachelor’s majoring in computer science. After separating from the Air Force, he was a personal trainer at a local gym, married his wife in the Catholic Church, and lived in a single-family home.

Gospel 3: After graduating high school, a certain man attended a local community college for a year. Drifting though life, he ended up getting a job doing glass construction on 3 separate occasions, working for a landscaper pulling weeds and building hardscapes, selling paint at SEARS, and variously working as a substitute teacher, a high school teacher, and a home instructor for kids who had been kicked out of school. He tried to get a job as a prison guard but was denied because of certain pacifistic tendencies. He also had a brother who entered the Army and, after serving for 6 years, went on to serve in the Air Force as an F-15 pilot.
RESPONSE:

Poor analogy.
Poor analogy? In what way? Come on, Little Les! I’d like to hear what you’d do with these three “Gospels.” I am hoping that it will help to illustrate the vast complexity of life, that life itself is to some extent a conglomeration of ad hoc situations and circumstances requiring ad hoc solutions to reconstruct, and the inability of rigidly defined historical and literary criteria and methods of analysis to adequately capture reality.

Have a blessed day!
Pete
 
Poor analogy? In what way? Come on, Little Les! I’d like to hear what you’d do with these three “Gospels.” I am hoping that it will help to illustrate the vast complexity of life, that life itself is to some extent a conglomeration of ad hoc situations and circumstances requiring ad hoc solutions to reconstruct, and the inability of rigidly defined historical and literary criteria and methods of analysis to adequately capture reality.

Have a blessed day!
Pete
QUESTIONS:

Are you claiming that these three “gospels” are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Evidently you are talking about three different individuals unless the same person went into the Army, then the Air Force, or didn’t join any branch of the service.

Is there some kind of point that you are trying to make?
 
If I might put my two cents in:

Those who quibble about errors in scripture almost invaribly do so by applying our modern culture, semantics, definitions of history, science, concern for empirical truth etc. to the biblical text while making zero attempt to first understand the passage in light of the culture, semantics, definitions of history etc of the human author’s day. This results in great confusion and trying to make the bible to claim things it never intended to say.

By the way this is PRECISELY what both Dei Verbum and the Cathechism advise (see CCC 100 -141 specifically 109 - 110). By doing so, one gets a clearer understanding of what the Holy Spirit was saying in the biblical text. A case in point: Do the parables of Jesus lose their moral force if all the details did not happen as expressed? No, in fact it is their universality of application to all times and cultures that give them their moral force.

Another example, take the Jonah story because it describes events in a style that, at least implies, really happens, it could be said that it is an historical narrative. But does the story lose its moral force simply because the historical events probably did not actually happen? NO! Again it is the universality of application that makes the story powerful. Regardless of time, we can place ourselves in Jonah’s shoes and feel sympathy for his reactions. We too, might feel compelled to ignore God’s command - even to the point of trying to flee from God. We too, might feel angry at God’s blessing of our enemies. The above examples suggests the need to read a variety of commentaries, get their different perspectives and THEN match our resulting interpretation to the mind of the Church. The last step is just as critical as the first.

We cannot apply our 21st century concepts of error and truth to those of the biblical author. Take the statement Jesus died for mankind’s sins and rose from the dead on the third day. Both are historical facts. Both actually happened. The bible states that both are true. But are they statements of historical fact or statements of faith? Based on ourcurrent definition and criteria for history, they are NOT historical statements. Their actual historical authenticity cannot be proved or disproved by science. Science is therefore not competent to speak on them and should not be allowed to do so.

Corry
 
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iamanea:
Take the statement Jesus died for mankind’s sins and rose from the dead on the third day. Both are historical facts. Both actually happened. The bible states that both are true. But are they statements of historical fact or statements of faith? Based on ourcurrent definition and criteria for history, they are NOT historical statements. Their actual historical authenticity cannot be proved or disproved by science. Science is therefore not competent to speak on them and should not be allowed to do so.
Please explain WHY that is not a historical statement. What exactly is necessary for a historical statement in these days of ours. Please explain what you mean by “our current definition and criteria for history.” Does this mean no one could make “historical statements” until our own time?
 
Please explain WHY that is not a historical statement. What exactly is necessary for a historical statement in these days of ours. Please explain what you mean by “our current definition and criteria for history.” Does this mean no one could make “historical statements” until our own time?
The problem relates to those who try to apply modern questions and standards of accuracy to biblical times. Our definition of history is not the ancient biblical author’s definition. They were not concerned as we are about bias. They were not concerned as we are about actual historical reality. They frequently use the technique of psuedo-authorship where a document was attributed to some famous person of antiquity so as to give the document greater authority (in the eyeas of the author). Two examples are ascribing the Psalms to David and all the Pauline letters to Paul.

The ancient author would not see these as “errors.” They saw them as acceptable literary devices to make a specific point for a specific purpose. As such it is facetious to hold them up to scorn JUST BECAUSE we have DIFFERENT sensibilities.

Current criteria of history requires a freedom from bias and objectivity. It requires that the claim be empirically proveable from a variety of independent sources who have no ax to grind. An example of a historical statement in the empirical modern sense of the term is “the U.S. declared its independence from Great Britain on July 4, 1776.” We have the document, it is specifically dated, we have the writings of the various participants, we have histories quoting these sources by both British and American historians. They all agree that this is a historical fact.

Jesus death for man’s sins, and His ressurection cannot be proven/disproven in this way. Therefore they are not historical statements and I argue not precise to call them such. Yes, They DID Happen (which is of course your meaning of history) but I argue it is FAITH not REASON that tells us that.

While I am specifically avoiding being categorical in my statements, I would argue that in almost every case where it is clear that the Holy Spirit is making a historical statement, i.e. stating that something actually happened as described, that statement is a matter of FAITH. It has been specifically defined as a matter of FAITH by the Church (e.g. the Virgin Birth of Jesus)

My point is that we shouldn’t even try to “prove” these things from a historical or scientific standpoint. They are not proveable in that sense.

The methodologies of modern biblical criticism can serve as a guide as to what the Holy Spirit is asserting in a passage. The Catechism declares that the Holy Spirit’s assertion is to be found in the literal meaning of the passage (this in no way denies the various spiritual meanings to be found in a passage as long as they are supported by the literal).

There are many statements that appear to us, given our modern 20th - 21st century understanding of the English language and our culture’s use of semantics (e.g. slang, - where the correct understanding of the meaning of the term depends on whether you are in tune with the current culture), that are not the same as that of the biblical author. These may or may not be assertations of historical fact in the empirical, objective, 20th century sense of the term. In many cases Archaeology confirms the historical record of the bible. In other cases, it does not and indeed, in the majority view, Archaeology contradicts the biblical narrative.

Through careful study of the literal and spiritual senses of scripture and careful study to conform our interpretation of the bible to the mind of the Church we can avoid needless and fruitless discussion with those who wish to disparage the bible to “prove” God and spiritual matters do not exist.

Corry
 
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iamanea:
My point is that we shouldn’t even try to “prove” these things from a historical or scientific standpoint. They are not proveable in that sense.
Thanks for your explanation. Although there are some difficulties and considerations that “scientific” history downplays, your points are well taken. 😉

Like yourself (perhaps) I am amazed at the number of posts asking for “proof” of this or that doctrine from Scripture. I know that such proof is never forthcoming, and wonder at the motives for such inquiries.

I am also glad that you make the distinction between what actually occurs (historically) in the Bible (although not verifiable) and therefore not being provable, yet nonetheless as having occurred historically in the light of our faith, whether human or theological. 🙂

However, I think you can understand my perplexity when I encounter such statements as these:
Based on our current definition and criteria for history, they are NOT historical statements.
I would have said they are not historically provable statements, not that they are NOT historical statements, as the Evangelist certainly meant to say this was a real event which occurred in our history, therefore making, in effect, a historical statement. You then seem to be denying that the evangelist was writing of a real event. You must see the difficulty in such wording?
 
AmbroseSJ commented:

"Like yourself (perhaps) I am amazed at the number of posts asking for “proof” of this or that doctrine from Scripture. I know that such proof is never forthcoming, and wonder at the motives for such inquiries. "

RESPONSE:

Yes. It is difficult to prove something that isn’t true, althought many apologists claim to have done so.
 
AmbroseSJ commented:

"Like yourself (perhaps) I am amazed at the number of posts asking for “proof” of this or that doctrine from Scripture. I know that such proof is never forthcoming, and wonder at the motives for such inquiries. "

RESPONSE:

Yes. It is difficult to prove something that isn’t true, althought many apologists claim to have done so.
No, it’s not that it isn’t true, it’s that it’s a matter of Faith. 🤷

Just because something requires faith does not automatically make it false. :rolleyes:
 
I would have said they are not historically provable statements, not that they are NOT historical statements, as the Evangelist certainly meant to say this was a real event which occurred in our history, therefore making, in effect, a historical statement. You then seem to be denying that the evangelist was writing of a real event. You must see the difficulty in such wording?

Your point is very well taken and I agree whole heartedly. Shows that I am just as guilty of not being clear in my use of language just as others have been. That is why I try to give people the benefit of the doubt (not that you weren’t giving me that benefit) when they appear to be denying Church teaching.

My post is my interpretation of Cardinal Bea’s explanation of Dei Verbum that I have mentioned before. The natural attempt to read anything written by the Church in the past in terms of modern use of language results in the same problems of misinterpretation that I have responded to on this thread.

God Bless

Corry
 
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