Church Administration in the Future

[Coder]

I think we as a Church need to seek to prevent the current state of affairs from happening again in the future. The amount of dissent and lack of adherence to the Magisterium in Catholicism is truly wrong.

Is it that the Church is too large and anyone can get away with calling themselves Catholic even if they don’t agree with the Magisterium?

I could see that the Church cannot control the behavior of all the laity, for example, only attending mass at Christmas and Easter. However, when the leaders of the Church themselves such as theologians at Catholic Universities, priests, deacons, CCD teachers, and parish councils don’t fully agree with the Magisterium, I really can’t see how this can be allowed.

I even plan to take my daughter out of Catholic College because of the immorality she is exposed to there and she doesn’t want to stay there anyway.

I would like to think that this will eventually be corrected. However, can we prevent this in the future?

 

[Mystophilus]

Coder:

I could see that the Church cannot control the behavior of all the laity, for example, only attending mass at Christmas and Easter. However, when the leaders of the Church themselves such as theologians at Catholic Universities, priests, deacons, CCD teachers, and parish councils don’t fully agree with the Magisterium, I really can’t see how this can be allowed… I would like to think that this will eventually be corrected. However, can we prevent this in the future?

You could, but the cost would be extremely high.

The effect which you are seeing is the ‘democratisation of epistemology’, in which the population at large start to take control of the production of knowledge, wresting that control from centralised authorities. This is effect has been repeatedly demonstrated down through history as one of the results of education.

In order to prevent it, you need only prevent the population from being educated. :bigyikes:

I would, therefore, suggest that it might be better for the Catholic Church to adapt, rather than regress.

 

[puzzleannie]

Coder:

I
I could see that the Church cannot control the behavior of all the laity, for example,?

It is generally only our rabidly anti-Catholic critics who accuse the Catholic Church of trying to control the minds, hearts and actions of her members. The Church operates under the laws of free will, as does her Founder.

 

[puzzleannie]

Coder:

I However, when the leaders of the Church themselves such as theologians at Catholic Universities, priests, deacons, CCD teachers, and parish councils don’t fully agree with the Magisterium, I really can’t see how this can be allowed.
. . .I would like to think that this will eventually be corrected. However, can we prevent this in the future?

This state of affairs can be corrected by faithful Catholics obedient to the commandments and laws of the Church marrying lawfully and raising families, embracing their role as primary educators of their children and their baptismal promise to hand on the Faith, entire and complete to their children through word, teaching and especially by example. When we have faithful Catholic husbands, fathers, wives, mothers we will have all the priests and religious we need and we will have a body of laity who will not tolerate or accept false teaching.

 

[Wolseley]

Mystophilus:

You could, but the cost would be extremely high.

The effect which you are seeing is the ‘democratisation of epistemology’, in which the population at large start to take control of the production of knowledge, wresting that control from centralised authorities. This is effect has been repeatedly demonstrated down through history as one of the results of education.

In order to prevent it, you need only prevent the population from being educated. :bigyikes:

I would, therefore, suggest that it might be better for the Catholic Church to adapt, rather than regress.

Ah, Marxism!

How quaint.

 

[Mystophilus]

Wolseley:

Ah, Marxism!

How quaint.

No class consciousness, no class struggle, no valuation of individuals via labour. Sorry: no Marxism here.

 

[otm]

Coder:

I think we as a Church need to seek to prevent the current state of affairs from happening again in the future. The amount of dissent and lack of adherence to the Magisterium in Catholicism is truly wrong.

Is it that the Church is too large and anyone can get away with calling themselves Catholic even if they don’t agree with the Magisterium?

I could see that the Church cannot control the behavior of all the laity, for example, only attending mass at Christmas and Easter. However, when the leaders of the Church themselves such as theologians at Catholic Universities, priests, deacons, CCD teachers, and parish councils don’t fully agree with the Magisterium, I really can’t see how this can be allowed.

I even plan to take my daughter out of Catholic College because of the immorality she is exposed to there and she doesn’t want to stay there anyway.

I would like to think that this will eventually be corrected. However, can we prevent this in the future?

Do you not think that every age has had this issue? Dissent is not something new in the Catholic Church; it has been at the root of evey heresy through the centuries.

How to prevent it? By speaking the truths of the Gospel. How to enforce that? The Church is not an enforcer, at least in the sense of micromanaging every priest, every nun, every bishop, every theologian. Those who will stray, will stray. JP2 admitted that he was not particualrly strong in the area of discipline.

Those who seem to think that Benedict 16 will do a “smack down” (those are the words used in other threads in this forum) ar presuming that he is some sort of enforcer or police, and will start micromanaging.

That he might bring some few to heel is entirely possible, but that he is going to be giving a litmus test or loyalty oath to each and every Cardinal, bishop, priest and theologian is the pipe dream of some individuals, but they don’t even seem to know who this Pope is, and it simply isn’t going to happen. Their view of the papacy borders on comic book characterization. His history is that of a very brilliant, but quiet and humble theologian, bishop, Cardinal, and now Pope. He isn’t one to throw his weight around, and never has been. He is also very supportive of Vatican 2, which was rather explicit about the role of bishops in the Church.

 

[scylla]

I respectfully disagree with Mystophilus in what he said about education, in that most of the dissent in my opinion stems from lack of education. Those who understand why the Church is setup the way it is and what it teaches tend to be very faithful.

Education is freedom from the captivity of ignorance which leads to relativism in religion. It is one of our best weapons against crime, terrorism, and a host of other problems. Lack of substance in religious education is one of my biggest gripes with my parish.

Look at anyone who has studied their way back to the Church they are some of the most faithful of the parish. Most of the dissenters are cradle Catholics who are products of the pretty crummy catechesis of the last 30-40 years.

I was one of those who grew up in the 80’s who barely knew why I was Catholic. I eventually fell away due to wishy washy teaching and my own dissent.

We need better educational programs and faithful teaching that is the solution.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[josiecoe]

Coder:

Is it that the Church is too large and anyone can get away with calling themselves Catholic even if they don’t agree with the Magisterium?

I could see that the Church cannot control the behavior of all the laity, for example, only attending mass at Christmas and Easter. However, when the leaders of the Church themselves such as theologians at Catholic Universities, priests, deacons, CCD teachers, and parish councils don’t fully agree with the Magisterium, I really can’t see how this can be allowed.

Please be aware that the church has always/will always be under attack. The size of this church will vary in the United States (I believe that it will become smaller in the coming generation) however it will not become less powerful.

We have always been taught there is strength in numbers … there is *only *strength in God.

The church will purge itself (clean up its act)and you daughter can/will help lead the way on campus or in the future.

We need to be more Catholic in our every deed at moments in history such as this!

May Almighty God Bless you & your daughter

 

[Maranatha]

I agree with the earlier posters that the Church will always be under attack and there have always been dissenters. What’s the best way to address this?

Pray
Fast
Worship
Confess your sins
Live a Catholic example
Study and be ready to answer questions

 

[Mystophilus]

scylla:

I respectfully disagree with Mystophilus in what he said about education, in that most of the dissent in my opinion stems from lack of education. Those who understand why the Church is setup the way it is and what it teaches tend to be very faithful.

I think that it might be valuable at this point to discriminate between education and knowledge. One is the result of having been taught, the other the result of having learnt the truth, and that is what I believe you are indicating here. When you say that most of the dissent stems from a lack of education, and that those who understand are faithful, what it suggests is that those who know the Truth are faithful.

Education does not necessarily lead to Truth, although we hope that it does lead to the quest for Truth. Education involves presenting the student with other ideas, with competing ideas, and teaching the student to compare and evaluate. Having done that, we cannot then tell the student not to apply the same processes to one particular set of ideas, i.e., their faith. So long as students continue to be taught, they will continue to question.

Nevertheless, and I should have added this to my original post, dissenting need not be a problem: questions are not bad per se. When dissent is motivated by pride, or by a political agenda which has already been formulated, it is a problem for the unity of the body because it naturally progresses towards schism: the possibility of reconciliation has been forestalled. In contrast, when dissent is motivated by an honest desire for the Truth, it is not a problem for the unity of the body because the Truth of Christ must include forgiveness, reconciliation and unity in Love.

If the hierarchy move against the first kind of dissent, it may well provoke an aggressive response, but the aggression is already latent. If they move against the second kind, it will cause distress, and could ultimately provoke a schism when people are persecuted for doing what they know to be right. Therefore, it is the responsibility of the hierarchy to attempt to identify the root causes of any dissent and to manage it appropriately, affirming unity against the schismatics but being humble in their approach to the seekers after Truth.
But Jesus summoned them and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and the great ones make their authority over them felt. But it shall not be so among you. Rather, whoever wishes to be great among you shall be your servant; whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave (Matthew 20:25-7).

 

[Mystophilus]

Please accept my apologies for my initial post (“Suppression”). I over-reacted out of personal experiences which I foolishly projected onto what you were saying, and it was not until the good Scylla questioned my position that I realised how far I had gone. I am sorry.

Please see my response to Scylla for a more reasoned approach to the topic.

 

[scylla]

You do make some good points in your last two posts and would like to respond yet my wife is calling me and I have to go. Family first, thanks for the responses, your humility and thoughtfulness is appreciated.

I will see if I can respond tomorrow,

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Wolseley]

Mystophilus:

No class consciousness, no class struggle, no valuation of individuals via labour. Sorry: no Marxism here.

No? If we view knowledge as a product like any other product, when you say this:
Mystophilius:

The effect which you are seeing is the ‘democratisation of epistemology’, in which the population at large start to take control of the production of knowledge, wresting that control from centralised authorities. This is effect has been repeatedly demonstrated down through history as one of the results of education.

aren’t we talking about the proletarian class seizing the means of production, wresting it away from the bourgeoisie?

Your statement sounded very similar to it. My apologies if I misread you.

 

[rwoehmke]

One only has to secure an education in the History of Christianity to realize that in all the periods of time from day one there has been dissent and disagreement. In the first century the Jews drove the new Christians out of the temple. In many cases heresy or dissent was specific to a localized group which like the Cathars could be put to the sword by the rest of Christiandom. Even so if you go on the internet today there still are live and well Cathers. Then there were widespread heresies like Arianism and Islam which were largely beaten back but not eliminated by preaching and teaching. Even before the reformation there were dissenters whose beliefs are still held by some today. Today there are no national armies to come to the aid of the Vatican. It is like the parable of the tares in the wheat. One would have the devil of a time rooting it out without causing major collateral damage. As for an unchanging Church one has to be totally ignorant of history to believe that. Their have been changes in every century even to the extent that certain doctrines become more fully understood, and some still exist, but are no longer the “hot” items they once were. Lest you misunderstand me, I do not think our dissenters are ever going to see women priests, church approval of abortion or assisted suicide, or the demise of NFP and Papal infallibility. Nor will the Church take on a democratic form of government. Sooner or later dissenters will understand that their “pet cow” is never going to give milk and they will leave or fall back into line; some will die with false hope.

 

[Coder]

I don’t think I quite agree. I think sometimes if you actually want to accomplish something, you have to take action. My boss at work can’t wait until I decide I might cooperate with the company goals.

Consider yesterday’s gospel.

 

[Mystophilus]

Wolseley:

No? If we view knowledge as a product like any other product, when you say this: (quote democratisation of epistemology) aren’t we talking about the proletarian class seizing the means of production, wresting it away from the bourgeoisie?

Re-reading the post, I can certainly see where you found the idea!

However, even if we view knowledge as a product, the proletariat are still only becoming self-employed, entering into competition with the higher classes rather than triumphing over them.

Apart from class consciousness and labour value, what was really missing there was historical determinism. Historical demonstrability is another thing entirely, being utterly changeable.

Your statement sounded very similar to it. My apologies if I misread you.

I am just glad to find someone who is sufficiently well-read to be able to make the connection at all.

No; Marx is nothing more to me than an amusing read, I am afraid.

• Mystophilus, card-carrying heretic