Church and MONEY

[Speaker4theDead]

Hey I’m sorry if this has been asked before, I did a quick search and didn’t find anything.

Ok, so I converted last spring and a lot of my “friends” rejected me for doing it. This doesn’t stop my fervor, no worries… BUT… the one question I have trouble defending is when they bring up how RICH the Church is. They call me a hypocrite because I talk about social justice but I’m part of the “richest institution in the world, spending money on enormous cathedrals and gold chalices instead of the poor. Not to mention the billions in sexual harassment settlements, the finest robes and thrones and food etc…” There is a bit in a gospel about this where Judas brings this up, but Jesus’ answer confuses me and I guess I don’t understand because I still agree with Judas’ point… (I think Jesus’ answer is something to effect of “Well look at all the good things YOU have!” Unless I remember his response wrong, this ad hominem tu quoque kind of answer just doesn’t sit well with me.

I tell them about how the Church needs to support millions of workers and buildings all over the globe, including various charitable institutions like SOME and thousands and thousands of schools, etc etc etc the list goes ON… I know that the Church is the champion of social justice-- it’s one of the main reasons I was called home… but it’s hard to argue with these people. Anybody have a good answer?

 

[Yerusalyim]

Building those Cathedrals provide jobs. That is a social justice. Then ask your friends to point to an organization that does MORE for the poor than the Church.

 

[Maxply]

You’re going to have to do your own legwork a bit here.

Several years ago I read a book by a fellow, Thomas something or other, who’d been editor of America magazine. He did a political scientist take at the Vatican and included a nice look at the financial structure and a recent history of church expenditures.

Good, useful book. Sorry I can’t recall the name of it.

The Vatican looks good and rich on paper, but unfortunately holds a lot of extremely valuable fixed assets. . . assets that cannot be sold. Pope Paul in the 60s blew through tons of money, wasted the free cash, and it was at the insistence of American philanthropists that the financial offices get computerized, systematized and put on better track.

Again, the author was a former editor of America magazine.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Our Parish church might be worth a million dollars(maybe), however our church receives a million dollars per year in donations. About 50% goes directly to education programs, about 12% goes to Diocese redistribution (which is basically how the diocese assists poor parishes) the rest operates the church(salaries and repairs). Our parish is over 100 years old. This is fairly typical, meaning all the ‘wealth’ they see is less than 1% of donations. More importantly if you sell all this perceived ‘wealth’ there would be virtual no affect. This is because your decision would only change budgets by about 5 months value dropping fixed assets from 1% (of all donations)to 0.5%(of all donations).

Here is another method to look at the issue:
Often we see a $10 per person weekly contribution (ours is about$15), lets use $500/year/person. So 1 billion Catholics offer at that rate is $500 billion*. Now we have 2000 years of accumulation, but only about 1400 years at large levels. So 1400 years at 500 billion equals 700 trillion dollars. Said another way if your friends believe the Catholic Church has 10 billion dollars in assets that is about 0.14% saved, and 99.86% redistributed.

*This is an estimate in real dollars regardless of year or currency

 

[KathleenElsie]

Our Parish church might be worth a million dollars(maybe), however our church receives a million dollars per year in donations. About 50% goes directly to education programs, about 12% goes to Diocese redistribution (which is basically how the diocese assists poor parishes) the rest operates the church(salaries and repairs). Our parish is over 100 years old. This is fairly typical, meaning all the ‘wealth’ they see is less than 1% of donations. More importantly if you sell all this perceived ‘wealth’ there would be virtual no affect. This is because your decision would only change budgets by about 5 months value dropping fixed assets from 1% (of all donations)to 0.5%(of all donations).

Here is another method to look at the issue:
Often we see a $10 per person weekly contribution (ours is about$15), lets use $500/year/person. So 1 billion Catholics offer at that rate is $500 billion*. Now we have 2000 years of accumulation, but only about 1400 years at large levels. So 1400 years at 500 billion equals 700 trillion dollars. Said another way if your friends believe the Catholic Church has 10 billion dollars in assets that is about 0.14% saved, and 99.86% redistributed.

*This is an estimate in real dollars regardless of year or currency

Well said.

 

[johnnykins]

Hey I’m sorry if this has been asked before, I did a quick search and didn’t find anything.

Ok, so I converted last spring and a lot of my “friends” rejected me for doing it. This doesn’t stop my fervor, no worries… BUT… the one question I have trouble defending is when they bring up how RICH the Church is. They call me a hypocrite because I talk about social justice but I’m part of the “richest institution in the world, spending money on enormous cathedrals and gold chalices instead of the poor. Not to mention the billions in sexual harassment settlements, the finest robes and thrones and food etc…” There is a bit in a gospel about this where Judas brings this up, but Jesus’ answer confuses me and I guess I don’t understand because I still agree with Judas’ point… (I think Jesus’ answer is something to effect of “Well look at all the good things YOU have!” Unless I remember his response wrong, this ad hominem tu quoque kind of answer just doesn’t sit well with me.

I always interpreted that passage as an indication that: 1. there is a place for beauty in the worship of God - which is consistent with the extravagance of the temple.
2. a rebuke to Judas because he wasn’t all that “pure” in his protestations of the “mis-spent” monies. - sort of a rebuke to all of us to in fact be really concerned about the poor, a beam and mote thing. Bishop Sheen once (I can’t remember where) made a point that people often attack the Church when they themselves are guilty of exactly what they attack the Church for.
3. If there is hypocrisy - and no doubt with a billion members there are hypocrites - it’s a personal thing, not an institutional thing. Cf the Pharisees: the Temple was rich and they were hypocrites - but not because the Temple was rich, but because they were.

My inclination is to agree there are hypocrites, but also holy men and women. That some may use their position or power improperly is simply an indication of the sinfulness of Catholics - LIKE ANYONE ELSE. That certain stewards, bishops, priests, etc., violated their trust is undeniable - and has always been the case since Judas. But there are the many saints, and many unknown saints, too. Peter was chosen, IMHO, because he was a hot head, a back-tracker on how to deal with gentiles, a Christ denier, an ear-lopper-offer - he is you and me - a real person who repents. The Church is filled with Judases, Peters and even some St. Johns and Mother Theresas, etc.

As for the buildings and art, music and vestments - it’s not owned by any one person and are works of faith, beacons of hope, inspiration to the masses. And even if misused from time to time, they still reflect the Glory of God.

I tell them about how the Church needs to support millions of workers and buildings all over the globe, including various charitable institutions like SOME and thousands and thousands of schools, etc etc etc the list goes ON… I know that the Church is the champion of social justice-- it’s one of the main reasons I was called home… but it’s hard to argue with these people. Anybody have a good answer?

I don’t know if the above is a “good answer” but it works for me. We all gotta do what we can, ask forgiveness when we don’t and seek God, praise Him and maybe find His finger in the trancendant beauty of Bramante, Michaelangelo, Raphael, Palestrina, Allegri, Giotto, etc., etc. and some nice vestments during Mass, too.

 

[banjo]

There is a bit in a gospel about this where Judas brings this up, but Jesus’ answer confuses me and I guess I don’t understand because I still agree with Judas’ point… (I think Jesus’ answer is something to effect of “Well look at all the good things YOU have!” Unless I remember his response wrong, this ad hominem tu quoque kind of answer just doesn’t sit well with me.

“But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, ‘Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a beautiful thing to me. For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me. In pouring this ointment on my body she has done it to prepare me for burial.’” Mt 26:8-12

The Navarre Bible commentary on this passage states: “The disciples criticize the great generosity of this woman because they fail to undestand the true meaning of poverty. They see her action as a waste of money. They do not yet realize the love which motivated the woman’s actions…She saw her action as a generous gesture and a recognition of Jesus’ dignity.”

The Ignagius Catholic Study Bible commentary adds…“Jesus’ anointing is a twofold sign: (1) it points to the immeasurable value of Jesus’ presence. The costly ointment is not wasted but used in a generous act of reverence and worship. (2) It points forward to Jesus’ Passion and death as his own priceless gift for man’s salvation.”

Are we not permitted to attempt to imitate her generosity and respect? Why should anyone object to Catholics who wish to be generous toward God in sharing their treasure with the Church? Didn’t God command Moses to build the Ark of the Covenant out of gold? Would they suggest it should have been built out of a less costly substance? Can we ever really be too lavish in our expression of love and reverence for the majesty of God who, after all, resides in the tabernacle? Don’t these very people dress in their finest or at least their better clothes when they attend their respective churches? Ctiticism is easy. How many people are willing to divest themselves of all of their superfluous assests and give the money to the poor?

 

[Speaker4theDead]

hey thanks everyone, these are all some incredible replies… a great help to me and probably others in understanding this.

 

[YADA]

Bishop Sheen tells the story of dinner at a parish where a young priest lamented about the ‘wealth of the church’ and how the ‘church should divst itself of wealth and serve the poor’ … after dinner the Bishop took the young priest aside and asked him how long he had been stealing from the collection …? The young priest broke down in tears … confessing his theft …

You see, the Church [and who is the church? - the people of God!] does own some ‘priceless’ peices of art [like Michangelos Pieta] but what good would come from selling that art?

Who could buy it? George Soros or Bill Gates? Where would they place it - in a private collection or donate it [to eliminate paying taxes] to some high priced museum?

Now it is located in St. Peter’s Basilica where millions of people can view it [without cost as in free] and be inspired by it …

and [if sold] the money obtained was then spent on food for those afflicted with starvation would perhaps feed the stomach for a day or so [if it is not stolen by gangs/dictators/militants or on the black market]

and then what … no more public free access to beautiful art [which even the poor can appreciate and should have access to it] nd no additional funds for the poor …

We, the church - a people dedicated to Christ and spreading the good news through the ages, sacrificed and built local parish buildings [rectories, churches, parish offices and schools], cathedrals and universities, monestaries and nunnaries, abbies and basiclicas … built to honor God, for the believers at the time and even more for the fiuture believers [our chidren and our childrens children and those who hear and answer God’s call]…

It is a fact that the church holds in trust assets … but the church also feeds the hungry, provides assisstance to those who suffer natural disasters like earthquakes, hurricanes and drought, etc … We sponsor hospitals, orphanages, schools and nursing facilities … We work on public works projects like clean water and community farms - agriculture and othe economic advancement projects … We are the church …

Ask your friends if they really need to hang on to grandma’s antigue rocker [or perhaps a coin collection, jewelry, Retirement Savings, second car, video game, trip to Starbucks, cable sunscription and internet … the ist of non essentials is unlimited] … cannot all of these “Assets” be used to eliminate poverty or to provide medical care?

 

[BlestOne]

I totally agree with Yada. I do want to point out that when a parish wants to erect another building, whether it be a church or a school, they have to come up with over 50% before the Church will even consider it. Then, it is still the responsibility of the parish to raise 80% of the monies needed. We just built a Catholic HS in our area. Two contributors alone put up over 6 mil to build an 8 MIL school… and the rest was raised by 5 parishes that benefit from this school. Already the tuition has gone from $4500 to over $6000 a year in the 6 yrs the school has been open and they are building an addition to the school because it is the best school in our area. First class to graduate was 25 students… this year the graduating class is over 125.

 

[whatevergirl]

Our Parish church might be worth a million dollars(maybe), however our church receives a million dollars per year in donations. About 50% goes directly to education programs, about 12% goes to Diocese redistribution (which is basically how the diocese assists poor parishes) the rest operates the church(salaries and repairs). Our parish is over 100 years old. This is fairly typical, meaning all the ‘wealth’ they see is less than 1% of donations. More importantly if you sell all this perceived ‘wealth’ there would be virtual no affect. This is because your decision would only change budgets by about 5 months value dropping fixed assets from 1% (of all donations)to 0.5%(of all donations).

Here is another method to look at the issue:
Often we see a $10 per person weekly contribution (ours is about$15), lets use $500/year/person. So 1 billion Catholics offer at that rate is $500 billion*. Now we have 2000 years of accumulation, but only about 1400 years at large levels. So 1400 years at 500 billion equals 700 trillion dollars. Said another way if your friends believe the Catholic Church has 10 billion dollars in assets that is about 0.14% saved, and 99.86% redistributed.

*This is an estimate in real dollars regardless of year or currency

I wish I was this good at math.
Great reply.

 

[hasikelee]

What do they mean by rich? The vatican? Perhaps rich in items that it owns, but not liquidable assets or “cash.”

I posted a conversation I had with a coworker who had an issue about her idea of the Church being rich. I asked her how much she spent on her new Honda. Then I asked her why she didn’t donate that money to charity or to help poor, suffering people.

Puhlease. Do you friends not buy nice cars? Clothes? They live in a cardboard box, right?

I would totally turn it around on them.

 

[Newbie2]

Granted, many bishops are not good managers of money and do not select good council for financial decisions…and there is no reson to assume that such can’t or doesn’t happen at levels above the local episcopate.

Here in the Detroit area, we started fundraising for a building project for our parish when the requirement was to raise 50% in cash/pledges (I’m pretty sure it was cash and pledges, but may have been cash only), the diocese loaning the other 50%. After we started, the rules changed; we had to raise 75% in cash…then it became 100% in cash that we had to raise.

Such a decision is understandable, since there was just no cash to loan…but, the diocese had pledged somewhere around 12 million to the JPII center, which I’m guessing few of our parishioners will ever visit.

That is lack of foresight and poor financial planning. Fortunately, our parish is wealthy and we were able to raise the funds…but there were other parishes that need to borrow money to remodel, rebuild or expand and can’t do it.

Yes, the Church is lacking in good money managers,but as has been already pointed out, does better than most everyone else at charitable work. Could she do better? Absolutely, no argument there.

 

[tom_laney]

No organization in the world serves the poor so well as the Catholic Church. And Catholic Social teaching speaks to the immorality of exhorbitant wealth, the Priority of Labor, the evils of both Capitalism and Communism and defines the purpose of commerce as service to the community…at a fair profit of course. What other Church has that?

Could the Church hierarchy live a bit more modestly? Sure. They could dress and live more like Christ and still get the job done. But luxury seems to go with hierarchy in many organizations. And somehow, through all sorts of difficulties for 2000 years, the Catholic Church has survived with all the true answers for moral economy. All we have to do is read them and do our best to live by those answers and help others to do the same.

 

[didymus]

To provide a little perspective the Archdiocese of Chicago has assets of roughly $2 billion. The Archdiocese depends on the income from those investments, plus donations to cover its operating expenses.

On the other hand the Yale University Endowment is worth $18 billion as of 2006.

Which institution do you think people expect more of? And criticise more?

 

[ribozyme]

You see, the Church [and who is the church? - the people of God!] does own some ‘priceless’ peices of art [like Michangelos Pieta] but what good would come from selling that art?

Who could buy it? George Soros or Bill Gates? Where would they place it - in a private collection or donate it [to eliminate paying taxes] to some high priced museum?
…

Ask your friends if they really need to hang on to grandma’s antigue rocker [or perhaps a coin collection, jewelry, Retirement Savings, second car, video game, trip to Starbucks, cable sunscription and internet … the ist of non essentials is unlimited] … cannot all of these “Assets” be used to eliminate poverty or to provide medical care?

Soros is one of the few people in my personal pantheon…

Here’s what Soros has to say about his money:

The main difference between me and other people who have amassed this kind of money is that I am primarily interested in ideas, and I don’t have much personal use for money.

Also about how Soros spends his money…

Soros spends more on politics than on himself. Although his family has many homes, including an apartment, a beach house and a country house in the New York area, Soros is no Donald Trump. He has neither jet nor yacht, neither art collection nor retinue.

Nor is he after the kind of access that political contributions usually buy. “He doesn’t need to make a contribution to talk to a president,” says Anthony Corrado, an expert on campaign finance at Colby College in Maine.

People fear Soros because they don’t understand his motives, says Leon Botstein, president of Bard College and a longtime Soros adviser. "The average person asks, ‘What’s in it for him?’ " Botstein says. “They cannot imagine that if they were that rich, they would be that generous.”

Soros understands the suspicion. “Why should a rich guy give money without ulterior motives?” he says. In fact, he adds, “I have ulterior motives, but they are clear: I want a hearing for my views. … I want a referendum on the Bush doctrine” in foreign affairs.

usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-06-01-soros-cover_x.htm

Soros is not interested in owning luxuries or spending it on works of art for his personal collection, but in creating a new and just world. But Soros is a greedy person… he does not donate his money to the Cato Institute, the Club for Growth, the American Enterprise Institute, or the Heritage Foundation unlike more charitable conservatives.

I am willing to abnegate myself of most of those assets (except for financial security for old age and the Internet since I am interested in ideas and knowledge.) I want to be confident that we alleiviate suffering and promote the philosophical schools of utilitarianism and empiricism.

 

[Cabrini143]

It is all about the Benjamins. The abuse and misuse of donated money is are more than most people know. Perhaps this is why the church balks at more lay involvement. The fox is guarding the hen house. The laity needs to speak up and stop the mismanagement of funds. Canonical laws were put in place to protect the self serving heirarchy of the church. They can and do violate Canon Law, but hold parishioners to a higher standard. Follow in the footsteps of Jesus and remember that the church here on earth is run by mortal man. God gave us free will. What will you do with yours? Follow your heart. I have great faith, but have also seen how power and money corrupts - even our moral leaders.

 

[Cabrini143]

What good would it do to sell the priceless treasures? People are dying all over the world because they don’t have anything at all.

Who would buy it?? Who cares!!! Every inch of the Vatican is covered with priceless treasures - so much so the effect is overwhelming. The cellar holds even more art work. What is the price of a human life??

The ruling class of the Catholic church needs to learn the meaning of sacrifice and humility. They can “talk-the-talk”, but can’t “walk-the-walk.”

 

[CapIV]

“But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, ‘Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a beautiful thing to me. For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me. In pouring this ointment on my body she has done it to prepare me for burial.’” Mt 26:8-12