Church and State

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An off-subject continuation from a previous thread…

A diversity of people
Across time and place
Firmly accept
A particular set of concepts

From a secular perspective,
How can this exist?
 
I’m not sure what you are asking (or if your statement is rhetorical in some fashion?)
 
I think the time may be coming when we as Catholics will have to live and breathe our Faith in a society that is anything but a Christian society - perhaps more humanistic possibly, but not Christian and certainly not Catholic Christian - and even moreso than now. I do think a lot of time and energy is spent in important places trying to convert the general society when what is needed is intensive formation on the ‘homefront’ internally specifically amongst the lay people - and from that and from living Catholicism as a culture lived out (and “seen to be so”) in the Gifts of The Holy Spirit, true and effective and affective evangelization in that Spirit will flow and will bear fruit.
A healthy and sound, effective, spirituality will flow only from relationship and from relationship to God. Often, I think, Catholicism can be more about relationship with The Church and with rules and regulations, laws, - full stop - than God per se…a direct relationship with The Father in The Spirit through Jesus, His Son.

Has the state any obligation towards Faith Groups in its midst, other than ensuring the rights of normal citizenship within the state for all regardless, no it has not. And as far as our obligation to ensure that the state observes the laws of God, the way to go about this is by the most effective and affective means…and that is what I query as above. Obviously to make a huge noise for the sake of it when it never seems to affect or effect anything in a lasting and fruitful manner is lame, totally lame and useless.

My thoughts…

Woops! I just noticed I am in the Apologetics Forum and definitely out of my comfort zone:D

Barb:)
 
No matter how diverse a nation gets, a secular society can still exist and prosper.

Unfortunately, it depends on how competitive people are. Now, non-Christians (such as Hindus, Buddhist, etc.) are pretty responsible with their own religions. Christians–and even a fair few hardcore Atheists–may present problems; they work so hard to get people on their side when it is unnecessary and uncalled for.

If people can practice their faiths in the comforts of their own home, and not take the diversity so personally, a secular, prospering society may be possible. It’s a challenge to get that through people’s heads, but it merely takes time, understanding, and patience.

I honestly believe the key to that is to tear down all mental and spiritual borders between the faiths, which countless are frightened to do. People don’t apply critical thinking to their faiths, and that is denying their faiths Life. Allowing the faith to grow as you learn is the main key to peaceful living with others who have different religious views.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
 
Faith,the love of ones Creator over and above of any ‘love’ or ‘worship’ of the state…this can be quite dangerous as it is now becoming for Catholic Christians in america. The wealthly ruling class loves a secular humanistic society for then it just max’s out ones credit cards,goes into debt just to buy trinkets and junk from the corporations…for after all,if earth is all there is…why not? Thats why a continuous onslaught against the RCC,constant lampooning of Jesus,His mom…Vinci code nonsense,hidden books of the bible conspiracy boobah etc etc…neutralize the populace,make America secular and the rich get richer,the poor poorer and we in the middle class just get eye twitchs and empty bankbooks…miracle on 34th street is their flick of the century for it propagates such consumerism and Lennons Imagine is their anthem in the coming new world order…have a jolly jolly Xmas…Nino
 
Let me know if I’m missing any particular point,

But for faith to have a place in secular society
Would we need to…
  1. Face our fears
  2. Identify what we love the most as a society
  3. Tear down borders while accepting our diversity
  4. Learning about the Catholic faith and others’ views
  5. Not be competitive
  6. Living what we have learned about our Catholic faith?
Woops! I just noticed I am in the Apologetics Forum and definitely out of my comfort zone:D
Thanks for facing your fears Barb:)
 
  1. Face our fears
    As long as we dont face our fears, then fear probably will drive us and we will be driven rather than rational beings. Fear and Love are powerful forces indeed.
  2. Identify what we love the most as a society
    I think we need to identify what will be most beneficial for a culturally diverse society and preserve that society in unity and in Peace in social, cultural and religious Freedom. Paramount which is the common good.
  3. Tear down borders while accepting our diversity
    Tear down what divides while building up what will unite. And religious and moral hysteria gets nowhere…nor hysteria of any kind for that matter. And hysteria I think is simply overplaying and exaggerating emotional content. The moment a person becomes overly emotional or hysterical, the ‘listener’ closes the ears and ‘walks away’ i.e. no longer listens…simply because if in the presence of an overly emotional personal or a hysterical person it is all a little frightening and one is so busy controlling and facing that fear that one no longer hears the message.
  4. Learning about the Catholic faith and others’ views
    Listening is very important as a human being created to be a social being and needing society and community. It is amazing how many Gospel lessons have come home to me through non Catholics, even non Christians.
    We need to keep our minds open. The Holy Spirit is no snob for sure!
  5. Not be competitive
    Why compete, it is mainly ego driven I think. I have never been competive which was why I never was good at sport probably, and I dont really understand what drives competitiveness other than ego. We need to learn to really rejoice in the gifts and victories of others and this is essential to live fully and effectively in the Mystical Body of Christ.
  6. Living what we have learned about our Catholic faith?
    Our Faith is destined to remain ineffective in its fullest sense as long as it is only in the intellect and not pervading our whole being.
Jesus said two things that constantly ‘prey’ upon my thoughts:

“Fools that read the signs of the weather and cannot read the signs of the times”…Nowadays we are jolly lucky indeed if we can EVEN read the signs of the weather…forget the signs of the times!!!:confused:

“You are the salt of the earth and if the salt looses its taste” …are things seemingly going downhill in our society. I think that they are and I am called to look into my own backyard for the reasons … at the force driving the barrel downhill rather than helplessly at the downhill rolling barrel.

My take…and ready to run first sign of trouble back to my comfort zones!!!😃 What gets me about Apologetics is that most all contributors are so jolly knowledgeable…makes a gal feel truly inadequate!😊

Barb:)
 
I am proud that America seperates State from Church. Cause then the Church could be corrupted a lot faster then if it was seperated. Politics are corrupted cause they have power. If the Church was given power, same thing would happen.
 
As good as the church is, it shouldn’t have any political power. Look at what happened in the middle ages…
 
  1. Face our fears
    As long as we dont face our fears, then fear probably will drive us and we will be driven rather than rational beings. Fear and Love are powerful forces indeed.
  2. Identify what we love the most as a society
    I think we need to identify what will be most beneficial for a culturally diverse society and preserve that society in unity and in Peace in social, cultural and religious Freedom. Paramount which is the common good.
  3. Tear down borders while accepting our diversity
    Tear down what divides while building up what will unite. And religious and moral hysteria gets nowhere…nor hysteria of any kind for that matter. And hysteria I think is simply overplaying and exaggerating emotional content. The moment a person becomes overly emotional or hysterical, the ‘listener’ closes the ears and ‘walks away’ i.e. no longer listens…simply because if in the presence of an overly emotional personal or a hysterical person it is all a little frightening and one is so busy controlling and facing that fear that one no longer hears the message.
  4. Learning about the Catholic faith and others’ views
    Listening is very important as a human being created to be a social being and needing society and community. It is amazing how many Gospel lessons have come home to me through non Catholics, even non Christians.
    We need to keep our minds open. The Holy Spirit is no snob for sure!
  5. Not be competitive
    Why compete, it is mainly ego driven I think. I have never been competive which was why I never was good at sport probably, and I dont really understand what drives competitiveness other than ego. We need to learn to really rejoice in the gifts and victories of others and this is essential to live fully and effectively in the Mystical Body of Christ.
  6. Living what we have learned about our Catholic faith?
    Our Faith is destined to remain ineffective in its fullest sense as long as it is only in the intellect and not pervading our whole being.
Jesus said two things that constantly ‘prey’ upon my thoughts:

“Fools that read the signs of the weather and cannot read the signs of the times”…Nowadays we are jolly lucky indeed if we can EVEN read the signs of the weather…forget the signs of the times!!!:confused:

“You are the salt of the earth and if the salt looses its taste” …are things seemingly going downhill in our society. I think that they are and I am called to look into my own backyard for the reasons … at the force driving the barrel downhill rather than helplessly at the downhill rolling barrel.

My take…and ready to run first sign of trouble back to my comfort zones!!!😃 What gets me about Apologetics is that most all contributors are so jolly knowledgeable…makes a gal feel truly inadequate!😊

Barb:)
Is this giving faith political power…? (not rhetorical)

Having courage (1)
To seek unity, peace, and freedom (2)
In words and actions (6)
In humility (5) and prudence (3)
By encouraging reciprocal learning (4)

Hope you stay with us Barb,
But what are problems with this?

How would we put this into practice if valid?
 
Is this giving faith political power…? (not rhetorical)

Having courage (1)
To seek unity, peace, and freedom (2)
In words and actions (6)
In humility (5) and prudence (3)
By encouraging reciprocal learning (4)

Hope you stay with us Barb,
But what are problems with this?

How would we put this into practice if valid?
Sorry…but I do not understand what you are saying nor asking:o
 
I dont think that Faith has nor should have political power, but it can have and sometimes should have a voice in politics. Simply because I am a citizen of the state with rights as a citizen and since my Faith is the whole of me…not something I can pick up in the morning and lay aside in the afternoon for some reason.

How would I put my theories into practise by persevering …perseverance is not really perseverance until it has failed and got up again, I dont think… by listening and by reading and by pondering what I hear and what I read and most of all by being a person of prayer committed to my Baptism and the Gospel, Christ, and in quite radical ways. Sometimes we can think that the radical is to be left to religious and priests…not so I dont think, not so at all. And this is the danger that I spoke about in my first post, that the laity are lacking terribly in formation and in understanding and living out that The Gospel is something that is demanding and challenging…on all the baptized. We need to rediscover our Baptims as a great demand and challenge as a call and vocation to be certain kinds of people in our being, in our very being, our way of existing in this world, in our essence…a call to be radically commited to Christ and The Gospel and every single state in life and walk in life will daily present calls to be this in that day and in all the days to come.

If I am a person of prayer of regular daily prayer that is as essential as the daily coffee or shower, things are going to fall into place…guaranteed beyond doubt!!!👍 It is a journey and obviously when I am at point A in transit to point B, I cannot be at point B until I transit to that point.
If I invite the Holy Spirit to be present daily in my selfhood and in my whole life - to be the inspiration to self and to my way of living - through a life of prayer and strong spirituality…near on miracles are going to happen…guranteed beyond doubt!!!

But where is our formation as lay people in a specifically lay spirituality for our times, speaking to our times for our times. Jesus was a man very much in His Times and vitally concerned and active in them…this is what spirituality is all about, living my life and the ordinary details of my ordinary life the very same as if Jesus was to live out these very ordinary details in a very ordinary life - and as I come closer to God, to Unity, Jesus will indeed be doing all that.

There are a couple of other important things we need as people of trustful confident Faith etc., and that is the courage to claim our right to be human (we make mistakes and are not infallible)…we need to have the courage to to experience reality from our own ground of being and not keep borrowing or claiming that of others. Finally we need to be people of adventure and willing to risk and take risks, to let go of personal security…and if it all goes wrong - then back to the drawing board and start all over again if necessary.

I hope all this makes sense…and my take!..and still ready to run if necessary:D It is said that the true hero is in reality a coward reacting under stress…so I have decided to invest in coward first and primarily in the hope that maybe the rest might follow…if not - then run I will!👍 …and that theory will have crashed into the wall along with quite a few others:D

Barb:)
 
An off-subject continuation from a previous thread…

A diversity of people
Across time and place
Firmly accept
A particular set of concepts

From a secular perspective,
How can this exist?
From the secular perspective, why should all the above not exist since there is no danger to the state nor the common good in such a community…providing of course there is not. The state must exist to protect the common good of all peoples and unharmful diversities within society.

Be that as it may…the four qualities you mention above will not continue to exist in my estimation unless the principals of community (as a religious concept) are implimented within such a group. The common bond becomes the particular set of concepts and that needs to be established and re affirmed constantly and revisited constantly…and affirmed as indeed the common bond of the community.

Barb:)
 
Having courage (1)
To seek unity, peace, and freedom (2)
In words and actions (6)
In humility (5) and prudence (3)
By encouraging reciprocal learning (4)
I apologize for my continued ambiguity

Let me explain my attempted unity with other perspectives:

If
God is Existence
And
All people naturally seek Existence
(Which is the principle of logic)
Then
Existence is a common good
For all society

And since
All views seek to be logical
Then
All of society can be united under “Existence”
(Under “God” if you are religious)

And since
We can learn from eachother
It is helpful to listen to eachother
Including
Identifying logical contradictions
In eachother
(In humility and love,
promoting peace and good will)

But
If the logical contradiction
is not clarified logically
Don’t coerce
But
Unite where you can
 
I apologize for my continued ambiguity

Let me explain my attempted unity with other perspectives:

If
God is Existence
And
All people naturally seek Existence
(Which is the principle of logic)
Then
Existence is a common good
For all society

And since
All views seek to be logical
Then
All of society can be united under “Existence”
(Under “God” if you are religious)

And since
We can learn from eachother
It is helpful to listen to eachother
Including
Identifying logical contradictions
In eachother
(In humility and love,
promoting peace and good will)

But
If the logical contradiction
is not clarified logically
Don’t coerce
But
Unite where you can
Therefore,

There must be a legal right to Existence
For all people
Or
There is poor communication
In many different ways
 
Not all people think that Existence is all that it is cracked up to be, if a certain quality of life is not a pre-condition. In our secular society, many see Excess Existence as bad. Others see Excessive Existence as good. Many see Ending Existence as good if volunteered by self or pregnant mother. Many see the aforementioned as good and ‘responsible’ in the overall Economics of Existence. You are dealing with the secular humanism’s Culture of Death which is amateur science of Economics of Existence not informed by God’s laws. After all, if God does not exist or does not participate in world affairs, secular humanism seeks practical solutions taking responsibility for the role God has abrogated.

We should be able to unite under the postulate that all Existence is Good, but we are not united in fact.

In the preceding, I am playing the secular humanist whose self-proclaimed role is to guide political thinking on a global scale based on the disciplines of science & technology and utilitarian principles that say that the greatest good to be seeked is the good that is of the greatest utility to the greatest number of people. Seems very logical, but the thinking is not informed by God’s laws that are sometimes contrary to man’s ideas. Like “Be fruitful and multiply”, without a limit set to meet man’s ideas in his limited world view.

The concept of total Separation of Church and State, such that participants in the political process become victims of identity theft when it comes to their religion & morals, is an abrogation of faithful citizenship for a just society. It is not religious hysteria as the agenda of “political correctness” (an oxymoron) would have one believe. Its cries for “toleration” for intrinsic evil is simply brainwashing propaganda. It would have one believe that you can’t legislate morality, when you can legislate anything including the absense of morality.
 
Here is Cardinal Stafford’s lecture about “being true in body and soul”. It is not an easy read but, is interesting about his views about the Separation of Church and State as a virus that was bound to corrupt the political process against religion & morals.

catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=780
 
Not all people think that Existence is all that it is cracked up to be, if a certain quality of life is not a pre-condition. In our secular society, many see Excess Existence as bad. Others see Excessive Existence as good. Many see Ending Existence as good if volunteered by self or pregnant mother. Many see the aforementioned as good and ‘responsible’ in the overall Economics of Existence. You are dealing with the secular humanism’s Culture of Death which is amateur science of Economics of Existence not informed by God’s laws. After all, if God does not exist or does not participate in world affairs, secular humanism seeks practical solutions taking responsibility for the role God has abrogated.

We should be able to unite under the postulate that all Existence is Good, but we are not united in fact.
If
God is Existence
God is Happiness
And
God is One
Then
Existence is Happiness

So

People can naturally seek Existence
And
Choose nonexistence

Just as,

People can naturally seek Happiness
And
Choose unhappiness
 
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