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Montie_Claunch
Guest
I was wondering. What is the proper relationship between the Church (any church) and the Goverment (agian any Goverment)? Thanks and God bless.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Can’t say it any better than the Establishment Clause:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
That being said, I personally don’t think of “church and state” but of “church and kingdom”–my Church is the Bride of Christ the King, and all I do is for Him. And so I pray, “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
That being said, I personally don’t think of “church and state” but of “church and kingdom”–my Church is the Bride of Christ the King, and all I do is for Him. And so I pray, “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”.
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Aaron_I
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ChrisR246
Guest
The purpose of government is to protect the citizens from force (foreign or domestic) and fraud.
Stepping back from looking at only the True Church to any church, the purpose of a church is to assist in/administer our relationship with God.
The best relationship between Church and State, then, IMO, is one where the church(es) influence the behavior of those in government. But, the government’s intrusion in our day to day lives should be so small that it is negligible and so no one is offended by the behavior.
Stepping back from looking at only the True Church to any church, the purpose of a church is to assist in/administer our relationship with God.
The best relationship between Church and State, then, IMO, is one where the church(es) influence the behavior of those in government. But, the government’s intrusion in our day to day lives should be so small that it is negligible and so no one is offended by the behavior.
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T.A.Stobie_SFO
Guest
Four Principles.
1. The Church shall not govern the state - The Church should not force itself on either the state or individuals. Christianity itself calls for voluntary submission to the laws of God and the Church by the individual or by his guardians acting in faith and love on his behalf. This does not mean that the Church should remain silent when basic human rights (such as the right to life) are being denied by the Government.
1. The Church shall not govern the state - The Church should not force itself on either the state or individuals. Christianity itself calls for voluntary submission to the laws of God and the Church by the individual or by his guardians acting in faith and love on his behalf. This does not mean that the Church should remain silent when basic human rights (such as the right to life) are being denied by the Government.
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T.A.Stobie_SFO
Guest
2. The State shall not govern the Church - As stated in the first amendment of the United States Constitution, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”, it is essential that we support this as written and not as some would like, that the Church should avoid politics or any issue addressed by the government. Congress should be considered to include the Courts, the public schools, the state and local governments, and the whole federal bureaucracy as well.
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T.A.Stobie_SFO
Guest
3. The State shall not corrupt the Church or it members - As stated in the first amendment of the United States Constitution, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”, it is essential that we support our free exercise of religion and object to any attempts to teach or influence individuals with contrary beliefs or practices by the government. Congress should be considered to include the Courts, the public schools, the state and local governments, and the whole federal bureaucracy as well. We must object as individuals and as Church to the advocating of immorality in any form by the government, including teaching of hedonism (a false religion) in the public schools and to the denial of basic human rights (such as the right to life) to any individual (whether Catholic or not).
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T.A.Stobie_SFO
Guest
4. A Nation without God is without a Soul - God should be a vital part of the peoples of every nation. A nation that denies God, denies the very soul of the people, hurting the people and destroying itself. The Church should endeavor to keep the nation as a “Nation Under God”.
(I tried to post this as one message but the system would not let me.)
(I tried to post this as one message but the system would not let me.)
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BioCatholic
Guest
T.A.Stobie said:
Which God? Christian, Muslim, Hindu, ect.??? i would think the millions of Muslims, Atheists, Satanic worshippers, in this country would have something to say about keeping the US under the “Christian God”.
They are all free to exercise their religion (or lack of) without intereference. the government should not endorse one religion over another. period. “establishment” in that clause means the noun, as well as the “act of establishing or creating”.
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T.A.Stobie_SFO
Guest
So you want to outlaw all references to God by anyone anywhere in the country as sought by the ACLU (interpretation based on their actions)
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Montie_Claunch
Guest
T.A.Stobie, SFO Where did you get the four principles?
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T.A.Stobie_SFO
Guest
Montie Claunch:
They were based on Catholic teachings.
I created them as part of “A Vision for the Catholic Church in the United States for the 21st Century”.
They were based on Catholic teachings.
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buffalo
Guest
The state cannot influence religion, but religion should influence the state. We, the people…
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ChrisR246
Guest
T.A.Stobie:
In practice, “the government” creates for itself rights and powers that “the people” don’t have and so they are different.
This difference between theory and practice give rise to
BioCatholic:
In theory, “the people” and “the government” should be the same things. If the government simply limited itself to being a cooperative protector of natural rights, they would be.
In practice, “the government” creates for itself rights and powers that “the people” don’t have and so they are different.
This difference between theory and practice give rise to
In my opinion.
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JOHNYJ
Guest
The Catholic church no longer believes in being the state religion of any nation.Since 1984 the Catholic church ceased beng the state religion of the Italian republic.
Being the state religion is bad for the state and the religion.
Being the state religion is bad for the state and the religion.
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WorBlux
Guest
The authority of the church acts as a vicar of christ.
The authority of the government acts as the vicar of the people.
Churches are contructed from the top down. The founders or prophets that establish a religion gain folowers who they give authority in thier name, and then layers of authority below that are formed.
The state is constructed from the bottom up. A group of people decide thier governing body and that governing body forms aliances or federation with other such bodies, until a unit is formed that is stong enough to retain soveirgnty. If the people disagree with the government they can and will overthrow it eventually because the people are the final authority of the government.
Seperation of the church and state benifits bothe party. The church is assured that it is truley universal, that it has no concrete ties to a people or culture. The state gains the flexibility of changing as needed though practical objective debate and legistlation without worrying about how religious authority will react. The church refuses to be established as state religion becasue doing so would essentially be selling the souls of it’s faithful to the state and community at large instead of trying guide it’s faithful to the straight and norrow way.
The authority of the government acts as the vicar of the people.
Churches are contructed from the top down. The founders or prophets that establish a religion gain folowers who they give authority in thier name, and then layers of authority below that are formed.
The state is constructed from the bottom up. A group of people decide thier governing body and that governing body forms aliances or federation with other such bodies, until a unit is formed that is stong enough to retain soveirgnty. If the people disagree with the government they can and will overthrow it eventually because the people are the final authority of the government.
Seperation of the church and state benifits bothe party. The church is assured that it is truley universal, that it has no concrete ties to a people or culture. The state gains the flexibility of changing as needed though practical objective debate and legistlation without worrying about how religious authority will react. The church refuses to be established as state religion becasue doing so would essentially be selling the souls of it’s faithful to the state and community at large instead of trying guide it’s faithful to the straight and norrow way.
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BillP
Guest
Which one?
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buffalo
Guest
Mine of course!
The point is that the religious values of the people influence the public debate and should.We have let the secular religion influence the public debate for some time now. The country was founded on Catholic principles (even though most of the founders were Protestant the values are mostly Catholic) and to remain so, Christians must influence the government.
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masterjedi747
Guest
Montie Claunch:
*28…The just ordering of society and the State is a central responsibility of politics. As Augustine once said, a State which is not governed according to justice would be just a bunch of thieves. Fundamental to Christianity is the distinction between what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God, in other words, the distinction between Church and State, or, as the Second Vatican Council puts it, the autonomy of the temporal sphere. The State may not impose religion, yet it must guarantee religious freedom and harmony between the followers of different religions. For her part, the Church, as the social expression of Christian faith, has a proper independence and is structured on the basis of her faith as a community which the State must recognize. The two spheres are distinct, yet always interrelated.
Justice is both the aim and the intrinsic criterion of all politics. Politics is more than a mere mechanism for defining the rules of public life: its origin and its goal are found in justice, which by its very nature has to do with ethics. The State must inevitably face the question of how justice can be achieved here and now. But this presupposes an even more radical question: what is justice? The problem is one of practical reason; but if reason is to be exercised properly, it must undergo constant purification, since it can never be completely free of the danger of a certain ethical blindness caused by the dazzling effect of power and special interests.
Here politics and faith meet. Faith by its specific nature is an encounter with the living God—an encounter opening up new horizons extending beyond the sphere of reason. But it is also a purifying force for reason itself. From God’s standpoint, faith liberates reason from its blind spots and therefore helps it to be ever more fully itself. Faith enables reason to do its work more effectively and to see its proper object more clearly. This is where Catholic social doctrine has its place: it has no intention of giving the Church power over the State. Even less is it an attempt to impose on those who do not share the faith ways of thinking and modes of conduct proper to faith. Its aim is simply to help purify reason and to contribute, here and now, to the acknowledgment and attainment of what is just.
The Church’s social teaching argues on the basis of reason and natural law, namely, on the basis of what is in accord with the nature of every human being. It recognizes that it is not the Church’s responsibility to make this teaching prevail in political life. Rather, the Church wishes to help form consciences in political life and to stimulate greater insight into the authentic requirements of justice as well as greater readiness to act accordingly, even when this might involve conflict with situations of personal interest. Building a just social and civil order, wherein each person receives what is his or her due, is an essential task which every generation must take up anew. As a political task, this cannot be the Church’s immediate responsibility. Yet, since it is also a most important human responsibility, the Church is duty-bound to offer, through the purification of reason and through ethical formation, her own specific contribution towards understanding the requirements of justice and achieving them politically.
The Church cannot and must not take upon herself the political battle to bring about the most just society possible. She cannot and must not replace the State. Yet at the same time she cannot and must not remain on the sidelines in the fight for justice. She has to play her part through rational argument and she has to reawaken the spiritual energy without which justice, which always demands sacrifice, cannot prevail and prosper. A just society must be the achievement of politics, not of the Church. Yet the promotion of justice through efforts to bring about openness of mind and will to the demands of the common good is something which concerns the Church deeply.*
Here’s a little bit of insight from Pope Benedict XVI in Deus Caritas Est:
*28…The just ordering of society and the State is a central responsibility of politics. As Augustine once said, a State which is not governed according to justice would be just a bunch of thieves. Fundamental to Christianity is the distinction between what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God, in other words, the distinction between Church and State, or, as the Second Vatican Council puts it, the autonomy of the temporal sphere. The State may not impose religion, yet it must guarantee religious freedom and harmony between the followers of different religions. For her part, the Church, as the social expression of Christian faith, has a proper independence and is structured on the basis of her faith as a community which the State must recognize. The two spheres are distinct, yet always interrelated.
Justice is both the aim and the intrinsic criterion of all politics. Politics is more than a mere mechanism for defining the rules of public life: its origin and its goal are found in justice, which by its very nature has to do with ethics. The State must inevitably face the question of how justice can be achieved here and now. But this presupposes an even more radical question: what is justice? The problem is one of practical reason; but if reason is to be exercised properly, it must undergo constant purification, since it can never be completely free of the danger of a certain ethical blindness caused by the dazzling effect of power and special interests.
Here politics and faith meet. Faith by its specific nature is an encounter with the living God—an encounter opening up new horizons extending beyond the sphere of reason. But it is also a purifying force for reason itself. From God’s standpoint, faith liberates reason from its blind spots and therefore helps it to be ever more fully itself. Faith enables reason to do its work more effectively and to see its proper object more clearly. This is where Catholic social doctrine has its place: it has no intention of giving the Church power over the State. Even less is it an attempt to impose on those who do not share the faith ways of thinking and modes of conduct proper to faith. Its aim is simply to help purify reason and to contribute, here and now, to the acknowledgment and attainment of what is just.
The Church’s social teaching argues on the basis of reason and natural law, namely, on the basis of what is in accord with the nature of every human being. It recognizes that it is not the Church’s responsibility to make this teaching prevail in political life. Rather, the Church wishes to help form consciences in political life and to stimulate greater insight into the authentic requirements of justice as well as greater readiness to act accordingly, even when this might involve conflict with situations of personal interest. Building a just social and civil order, wherein each person receives what is his or her due, is an essential task which every generation must take up anew. As a political task, this cannot be the Church’s immediate responsibility. Yet, since it is also a most important human responsibility, the Church is duty-bound to offer, through the purification of reason and through ethical formation, her own specific contribution towards understanding the requirements of justice and achieving them politically.
The Church cannot and must not take upon herself the political battle to bring about the most just society possible. She cannot and must not replace the State. Yet at the same time she cannot and must not remain on the sidelines in the fight for justice. She has to play her part through rational argument and she has to reawaken the spiritual energy without which justice, which always demands sacrifice, cannot prevail and prosper. A just society must be the achievement of politics, not of the Church. Yet the promotion of justice through efforts to bring about openness of mind and will to the demands of the common good is something which concerns the Church deeply.*
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michaelmac
Guest
Hi all, what happens when neither State or Church believe in justice , as is the case across most of the world, i have not seen or read any thing in the last 20 years to make me change my mind , i also have not seen any Christianity either yours michaelmac
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