Church and the future

[Cheiron]

I guess I meant the church would become corrupt. For example maybe allowing same sex marriage or other faithlessness.

Never gonna happen.

Pianistclare is right. Looking at Europe, I think the Church would rather disappear than change. Only in Scandinavia the number of catholics has gone up, mainly due to immigration of Eastern Europeans.

 

[goout]

Pianistclare is right. Looking at Europe, I think the Church would rather disappear than change. Only in Scandinavia the number of catholics has gone up, mainly due to immigration of Eastern Europeans.

Isn’t it kinda like a person starving on the sidewalks of Calcutta?
Isn’t that always an injustice, irregardless of how many people believe so? Seems like it to me. If it’s always wrong, then what does it matter if only a handful of people believe it’s right to help feed the starving? If only a handful do the right thing, isn’t it still the right thing?

Or does morality depend on popular opinion?

 

[Strydersroom]

While some may think “the Church” will never change, it’s members already have, and will continue to. So it’s safe to say the future Church will look quite different than the Church of old, and not just physically. Vatican III and IV anyone?

 

[Cheiron]

Isn’t it kinda like a person starving on the sidewalks of Calcutta?
Isn’t that always an injustice, irregardless of how many people believe so? Seems like it to me. If it’s always wrong, then what does it matter if only a handful of people believe it’s right to help feed the starving? If only a handful do the right thing, isn’t it still the right thing?

Or does morality depend on popular opinion?

This topic is not about morality. Billcu1 said he heard the Church will at some point in the future become corrupt and I’m trying to ease his mind by pointing to the situation in Europe, where the Church would rather disappear than change. I hope that will offer him some consolation.

While some may think “the Church” will never change, it’s members already have, and will continue to. So it’s safe to say the future Church will look quite different than the Church of old, and not just physically. Vatican III and IV anyone?

I think the Church has given up on North and Western Europe. There are barely new priests, monks and nuns. Foreigners fill the gaps. Bishops and priests don’t evangelize anymore. I’ve never seen members of the Catholic Church evangelizing. There will be no Vatican III and IV, because the European bishops think their only task is to manage an inevitable decline. They don’t think they can turn the tide. Whether that’s a good or bad thing depends on your perspective.

 

[Harry123]

God said during the end times, he would send the church a grand delusion, as sort of a test of the laypeople and the church leaders, the deception will apparently be convincing enough to fool even the elect (church leaders), so Im guessing, to the average lay person, its probably going to be extremely convincing, but I dont think we have any idea when or how this will play out, or what the deception may be.

Some suggest it is the gay marriage thing, but I dont think so, first, that would be too easy to recognize, and the CC hasnt been deceived by this, teaching on this is still the same, its not like they are going to start marrying gay people anytime soon.

I just hope I can recognize it when it comes, if Im alive during this time.

Evolution. Its fooled even the Popes. Gods word has been compromised in favor of thinking humans evolved from apes. That’s about as sad as you can get.

 

[mikekle]

Evolution. Its fooled even the Popes. Gods word has been compromised in favor of thinking humans evolved from apes. That’s about as sad as you can get.

Yeah, maybe, but then again, many people disagree with evolution and can see right thru the lies, so that wouldnt be a very effective deception.

 

[Strydersroom]

Yeah, maybe, but then again, many people disagree with evolution and can see right thru the lies, so that wouldnt be a very effective deception.

The great thing about science is it is correct whether you believe it or not - ngtyson

 

[chimo]

I didn’t quite know, like a lot of my posts; where this should go. So I put it here. I suppose if needed the moderators can move it.

I in my years have seen things get bad enough that it sickens me. But that's nothing. It hasn't really started yet. I have heard it will get so bad the church itself will become corrupt. I have also heard the opposite. That before things get quite that bad the church will be *taken*. Whatever that means. Can someone shed some light on this for me?

I do not think the Church will ever be taken over. If you think it is bad today you just need to look back at history to know how awful it was back then. The Church has survived all those “awful” times as a credit to what the Holy Spirit can do. It was pretty bad back then. Today it is no different. If you really want to know what is the main trouble that is threatening the Church you have to look inside her rather than outside of her. The problem with the Church was never what was outside of her but what was in her. The main problem today is this lack of witness in the Western democracies. What I mean by lack of witnessing is the majority of Western Christianity whether it be Catholic or Protestant do not contribute to the life of being a Christian. The few are doing the job which was meant for the many. What will God do to help Western Christianity? Here God has an answer. God will never see His Church taken over or disappear as He has plenty of graces up His sleeve to strengthen His Church when it is the right time to do so. I believe one of those helps will come from the direction of Eastern Christianity especially from the biggest of all Eastern Churches which is the Eastern Orthodox Church. God has placed these Eastern Churches, Coptic, Maronite, Eastern Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox here in the West for a great divine purpose. They have immigrated to these lands hopefully to give hope and encouragement to the Christians who had lived here for such a longer time.

 

[Ridgerunner]

God said during the end times, he would send the church a grand delusion, as sort of a test of the laypeople and the church leaders, the deception will apparently be convincing enough to fool even the elect (church leaders), so Im guessing, to the average lay person, its probably going to be extremely convincing, but I dont think we have any idea when or how this will play out, or what the deception may be.

Some suggest it is the gay marriage thing, but I dont think so, first, that would be too easy to recognize, and the CC hasnt been deceived by this, teaching on this is still the same, its not like they are going to start marrying gay people anytime soon.

I just hope I can recognize it when it comes, if Im alive during this time.

I’m not one who is looking for the end times imminently. But it might be the “grand delusion” is not a dramatic event at all, but a slow process. If I had to name one or die, I would pick “Modernism”. Pius X wrote an encyclical condemning it long ago, and it’s pervasive, yet nobody talks about it or even knows what it is. It’s not opposition to things “modern” it’s condemnation of relativism in faith and morals.

It’s the “if it’s right for me, it’s right” way of seeing things. “If it’s true for me, it’s true.” There is no objective mooring to such a way of thinking. It’s a ship adrift, with no anchor and no rudder.

We even see it in the secular sphere, one in which Supreme Court justices can pull a “right to abortion” out of the Constitution when it isn’t there at all, when they imagine a right to homosexual marriage as part of a right of privacy (notwithstanding that it’s very public). There’s no certitude in such mental meanderings. It’s just “It’s right because I think it’s right.”

Ultimately it leads to power, not truth, determining belief.

 

[Church_Militant]

I’ve heard this too yes. So I don’t quite know what to think about these things mentioned in the Bible. Maybe corruption isn’t the word because as you said God cannot lie, no. We all know that. But God will test and NOT tempt. Maybe it’s like Job’s story which is quite insightful I think as to the way God works. But I have heard about the very elect being deceived. And also about a great “falling away”. Maybe that was the protestant reformation.

Bill

Look at post #8. The Gay Marriage was an example. And there are those now who know the answers to some of these questions. Christ’s right hand. The church calls them heretics.

Not likely Bill. We need to read all last days related scripture in context with the rest of the New Testament. What did Jesus say?

Mark 13 is very relevant and especially the following verses.
***"[22] False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. [23] But take heed; I have told you all things beforehand."

---

Our commission from the Lord is clear…"***[33] Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
[34] It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch.
[35] Watch therefore – for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning –
[36] lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
[37] And what I say to you I say to all: Watch."

***But though some within the church may fall or be deceived it has not happened yet and when it does happen we will know because we watch just as Jesus commands us in the passage above.

It’s not a matter of the church falling Bill…but of all of society doing so, and that is what we are witnessing today. Governments corrupting justice in the name of freedom to allow perversion and wickedness to be condoned and God’s laws set aside and His people to be scandalized and slandered as “intolerant” when we speak out.

You speak of things getting bad, but they are not as bad as they will be …not yet. Consider what the Catholics endured for the first 300+ years of Christian history (Example: THE MARTYRDOM OF THE HOLY POLYCARP) When it gets like that and then some…Lift up your eyes.

While some may think “the Church” will never change, it’s members already have, and will continue to. So it’s safe to say the future Church will look quite different than the Church of old, and not just physically. Vatican III and IV anyone?

Posh…Church teaching does not change and it will not no matter how much wishful thinking society cranks out. Society may indeed go to hell in a hand-basket but they’ll do so while persecuting us and killing us but don’t believe for a second that the Pope will fall for it. That’s just more wishful thinking. God is faithful to His church.

This topic is not about morality. Billcu1 said he heard the Church will at some point in the future become corrupt and I’m trying to ease his mind by pointing to the situation in Europe, where the Church would rather disappear than change. I hope that will offer him some consolation.

I think the Church has given up on North and Western Europe. There are barely new priests, monks and nuns. Foreigners fill the gaps. Bishops and priests don’t evangelize anymore. I’ve never seen members of the Catholic Church evangelizing. There will be no Vatican III and IV, because the European bishops think their only task is to manage an inevitable decline. They don’t think they can turn the tide. Whether that’s a good or bad thing depends on your perspective.

I disagree with you, it’s more that those parts of Europe have given up on the church and turned away from God. It’s society and its governments, not the church. This is nothing especially new it’s just that the hour is getting late.

People…Americans in particular have forgotten the words of our founding fathers who said things like…

**Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice. - Thomas Paine

** I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. **-****Thomas Jefferson **

 

[RPRPsych]

Look at post #8. The Gay Marriage was an example. And there are those now who know the answers to some of these questions. Christ’s right hand. The church calls them heretics.

What is this supposed to mean? Who are these mysterious heretics?

 

[mikekle]

I’m not one who is looking for the end times imminently. But it might be the “grand delusion” is not a dramatic event at all, but a slow process. If I had to name one or die, I would pick “Modernism”. Pius X wrote an encyclical condemning it long ago, and it’s pervasive, yet nobody talks about it or even knows what it is. It’s not opposition to things “modern” it’s condemnation of relativism in faith and morals.

It’s the “if it’s right for me, it’s right” way of seeing things. “If it’s true for me, it’s true.” There is no objective mooring to such a way of thinking. It’s a ship adrift, with no anchor and no rudder.

We even see it in the secular sphere, one in which Supreme Court justices can pull a “right to abortion” out of the Constitution when it isn’t there at all, when they imagine a right to homosexual marriage as part of a right of privacy (notwithstanding that it’s very public). There’s no certitude in such mental meanderings. It’s just “It’s right because I think it’s right.”

Ultimately it leads to power, not truth, determining belief.

Oh yes, I agree, I see that more and more, whatever is ‘popular’ at a given time, that suddenly becomes scripture and laws are changed or based off it.

The way the US Constitution is written is sort of like the bible, depending on how you choose to interpret something, just about any crazy off the wall belief can be justified.

Whats really scary is, if this kind of thing is done slowly enough, over a long period of time, majority of people will not even recognize it is happening.

 

[goout]

This topic is not about morality. Billcu1 said he heard the Church will at some point in the future become corrupt and I’m trying to ease his mind by pointing to the situation in Europe, where the Church would rather disappear than change. I hope that will offer him some consolation.

You said the Church would rather disappear than change, in regards to changing it’s stance on gay marriage.
So, yes it is about morality.
The Church is not about popularity and politics, it is about leading people to the good.
That’s what morality is concerned with…discerning the good, finding the good, and doing the good. And uniting one’s self to the good.

So to reemphasize the point, it is somewhat beside the point whether the Church in Europe is shrinking, at least compared to proclaiming the Good news through good moral teaching. We do want the max number of people to attend Church etc…but there must be something of substance waiting for them, and relativism is no substance at all.

 

[billcu1]

What is this supposed to mean? Who are these mysterious heretics?

Peter (the church) asked Jesus about John (the elect) “What about him?” Jesus said, “What is it to you if I would have him live until I return. Follow me.”

Jesus explained to many what he was saying in his scriptures. Many of these explanations has mysteriously went somewhere. Or maybe they were never to be there. When the body accuses the body of heresy and in the last days “knowledge will abound”. Jesus spoke to many people that understood more than others, save this meat for those mature and the milk for the babes. Has Peter never told you about the right hand? Maybe he is not supposed to know himself. Maybe they say heretical things because you are not supposed to know them. But that is OT from this discussion. Good to see though.

 

[billcu1]

What is this supposed to mean? Who are these mysterious heretics?

For one Gnosis. The church says they believe things that they just aren’t saying. But then they say the church is saying things the church isn’t saying either.

 

[RPRPsych]

Peter (the church) asked Jesus about John (the elect) “What about him?” Jesus said, “What is it to you if I would have him live until I return. Follow me.”

Jesus explained to many what he was saying in his scriptures. Many of these explanations has mysteriously went somewhere. Or maybe they were never to be there. When the body accuses the body of heresy and in the last days “knowledge will abound”. Jesus spoke to many people that understood more than others, save this meat for those mature and the milk for the babes. Has Peter never told you about the right hand? Maybe he is not supposed to know himself. Maybe they say heretical things because you are not supposed to know them. But that is OT from this discussion. Good to see though.

For one Gnosis. The church says they believe things that they just aren’t saying. But then they say the church is saying things the church isn’t saying either.

Now I’m even more mystified. :hypno:

Are you saying the Gnostics, or other heretics, hold truths essential for salvation even though they are outside the Church? :whacky:

 

[billcu1]

Now I’m even more mystified. :hypno:

Are you saying the Gnostics, or other heretics, hold truths essential for salvation even though they are outside the Church? :whacky:

Depends on what you call salvation and why do you think the Gnostics are “outside the church”? Catholic Church maybe. And the Catholic church has enough salvation.