Church Architecture, Layout & Design?

[Justin1224]

Are there any guidelines on the layout or design of a church? During my life I have experience many different church designs, most specifially, those of both of my home parishes, growing up and where I am now. When I was a teenager my church was renovated with the front half being the worship space and the back a parish hall. The pews were arranged in a U formation with the altar in the middle. See here are photo of my church growing up:

portlanddiocese.net/gallery.php?gid=92

In the year leading up to this renovation, we had this book able in our parish published by LTP called Enviroment & Art in catholic worship. I got a copy of it and found it fascinating with many photos from various churches around the country, many that had been renovated. One of the churches featured was a parish of the same name in western New York that our pastor at the time visited to get ideas for the renovation of our church. You might remember a post from me back in the spring about this priest that was a great inspiration to me.

The church I attend now is also very moden, built in 1970, its round, with the back half the hall, and front half church and the altar at the center. here is a photo:

corpuschristimaine.org/cgi-bin/pro/emAlbum.cgi?c=show_image;p=Notre Dame;i=30;img=Corpus_Christi 054.jpg

Unfortunetly the church in which I grew up no longer exists. The building was torn down in October because of naturally caused structural damage that would have cost more than a million dollars to repair. The plan is to build a smaller, more energy efficient building this year. A lot of furnishing such as pews were kept. I have yet to find out whether the new church will arrange the old pews in a similar fashion. It was sad to see it go but I’m looking forward to see what kind of new church they will build.

you might need to copy and paste the second link.

 

[japscarousel]

I think the Chapter VII of Sacrosanctum Concillium and Chapter V General Instruction on the Roman Missal have some parts about the Sacred Art, arrangements and furnishings. I hope this would help.

I want to share something: We lived on a house which is very near to our parish church. It was very modern that you’ll not think it was a Catholic church. My father told me that it looked very traditional before, the exterior and the interior. The ‘retablo’ was made of wood, and the atmosphere is very solemn. Now, it is different. You could even see bottles of beers piled at the roof of the church.

I happened to past by a SDA church last Saturday.It was open so I took a peek. I was surprised; it looked similar to my former parish church. This is true.

I hope parish priests would place great care in designing/building new churches.

 

[SunnaB16]

Not having read “Environment and Art in Catholic Worship”, i can repeat only whats been written elsewhere, but apparently it was never approved by the US Bishops (nor for that matter, the Australian Bishops). In more "Traditional" circles, that book has been heavily criticised for removing the sense of the Sacred, and making churches Man-centred, rather than God-centred. Horizontal, rather than vertical. Emphasis on Family Meal, rather than Sacrifice. Cuddly wuddly. Its been used as the excuse for a lot of the vandalism inflicted on older churches; so-called “Spirit of Vatican II” style. Our own former parish church suffered badly, along with so many others. As for the present parish church: … Entertainment centre!

That book seems to have helped to foster a cult of ugliness.

 

[benedictgal]

Not having read “Environment and Art in Catholic Worship”, i can repeat only whats been written elsewhere, but apparently it was never approved by the US Bishops (nor for that matter, the Australian Bishops). In more "Traditional" circles, that book has been heavily criticised for removing the sense of the Sacred, and making churches Man-centred, rather than God-centred. Horizontal, rather than vertical. Emphasis on Family Meal, rather than Sacrifice. Cuddly wuddly. Its been used as the excuse for a lot of the vandalism inflicted on older churches; so-called “Spirit of Vatican II” style. Our own former parish church suffered badly, along with so many others. As for the present parish church: … Entertainment centre!

That book seems to have helped to foster a cult of ugliness.

Unfortunately, what you wrote is quite true. I believe that, if memory serves, this book was written by a small committee, much like Music in Catholic Worship. Because it was neither voted on by the USCCB, let alone received the necessary recognitio from Rome, it really does not carry any binding weight.

Built on Living Stones did receive a vote, but, it is more along the lines of recommendation than binding policy. Redemptonis Sacramentum, I believe, provides some good resources. Perhaps the best insight, though, obviously not a liturgical document, is “The Spirit of the Liturgy” by Pope Benedict XVI. He devotes some pages to how a church should look like. I lent the book to my pastor so that he could read it.

 

[Onegin]

When visiting some family members over Christmas, I accompanied them to St. Procopius Abbey in Chicago. St Procopius is pretty much the model of modern sparsity in design:

http://www.procopius.org/assets/community/Members_Mass_Altar.jpg

http://www.procopius.org/assets/oblates/Monks_Vespers2.jpg

http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00F/00FoLS-29080484.jpg

I am fascinated how some can find these types of spaces conducive to worship or orientation towards the Divine. And yet this style seems to be the rule today rather than the exception. Two observations that bothered me specifically were:

1. The lack of any sort of religious iconography whatsoever (including a crucifix), and
2. The lack of kneelers. In an abbey.

My point isn’t to hate on the design of St. Procopius, but to note that, if there are standards for Church design in force today they are either a) quite loose or b) not being followed/ignored.

There are two books out there that look interesting on this issue. One is called: “No Place For God: The Denial of the Transcendent in Modern Church Architecture” by Moyra Doorly (Ignatius) and the other called “Ugly as Sin: Why They Changed Our Churches from Sacred Places to Meeting Spaces and How We Can Change Them Back Again”. If anyone has read either of these, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts.

 

[roratecaeli]

Two observations that bothered me specifically were:

1. The lack of any sort of religious iconography whatsoever (including a crucifix), and
2. The lack of kneelers. In an abbey.

I thought those were required.

 

[malphono]

I am fascinated how some can find these types of spaces conducive to worship or orientation towards the Divine. And yet this style seems to be the rule today rather than the exception. Two observations that bothered me specifically were:

1. The lack of any sort of religious iconography whatsoever (including a crucifix), and
2. The lack of kneelers. In an abbey.

The idea of austerity is, in general, more-or-less in keeping with monastic tradition. I wouldn’t make too much of the absence of kneelers: monks often kneel on the bare floor. That said, though, there would seem to be a problem with the interpretation of both tradition and austerity if indeed there is no crucifix.

But since I haven’t seen the place myself, other than saying that what the photos show isn’t my cup of tea, I’ll refrain from further comment about the actual design and furnishings.

 

[Onegin]

The idea of austerity is, in general, more-or-less in keeping with monastic tradition. I wouldn’t make too much of the absence of kneelers: monks often kneel on the bare floor. That said, though, there would seem to be a problem with the interpretation of both tradition and austerity if indeed there is no crucifix.

But since I haven’t seen the place myself, other than saying that what the photos show isn’t my cup of tea, I’ll refrain from further comment about the actual design and furnishings.

I see your reasoning, and at first I kind of went to the ascetic justification for the lack of kneelers as well, however, given the overall design coupled with the total and complete lack of any religious iconography anywhere, I’m led to believe that the absence was intentional in keeping with the modern design.

Furthermore, as far as I know, I don’t believe that ascetics forego the use of icons, statues, crucifixes, etc.

 

[malphono]

I see your reasoning, and at first I kind of went to the ascetic justification for the lack of kneelers as well, however, given the overall design coupled with the total and complete lack of any religious iconography anywhere, I’m led to believe that the absence was intentional in keeping with the modern design.

I don’t doubt the absence of kneelers was intentional. That was my point. In an of itself, that would not pose a problem. I’ve seen real monks, including Benedictines (both Solesmes and English Congregations) and Cistercians, kneeling on hard stone in choir.

Furthermore, as far as I know, I don’t believe that ascetics forego the use of icons, statues, crucifixes, etc.

For this I can’t say more than I did earlier. If indeed there is no crucifix at all on (or perhaps above) the altar, that would (to me, at least) be a serious problem. But it’s an internal matter which, because it’s an abbey, cannot be addressed by other than Rome. The statues, etc, are far less an issue, but if the place is as bare as it looks in the photos, it kind of stretches the meaning of “ascetic” a bit far.

 

[otjm]

I don’t doubt the absence of kneelers was intentional. That was my point. In an of itself, that would not pose a problem. I’ve seen real monks, including Benedictines (both Solesmes and English Congregations) and Cistercians, kneeling on hard stone in choir.

For this I can’t say more than I did earlier. If indeed there is no crucifix at all on (or perhaps above) the altar, that would (to me, at least) be a serious problem. But it’s an internal matter which, because it’s an abbey, cannot be addressed by other than Rome. The statues, etc, are far less an issue, but if the place is as bare as it looks in the photos, it kind of stretches the meaning of “ascetic” a bit far.

I believe the most recent requirement is that there be a crucifix present during Mass, which would be accomplished if they brought one in at the beginning of Mass.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Regarding a monastic tradition of sparseness, much of what one sees today in monastic chapels, such as St. Procopius and many others, stems not from the ideals of the likes of St. Francis of Assisi, who spent a great deal of time beautifying churches. Rather, it came from the influence of people like Thomas Merton, who was in turn heavily influenced by Zen Buddhist theology and architecture. Gethsemani Abbey in Kentucky, Merton’s former home, had a once-magnificent chapel that was skeletonized according to Zen fashion. Much of the modern iconoclasm found in (or inspired by) “Environment and Art” came from Eastern and New Age influences. It is also championed by Fr. Richard Vosko, who has personally “wreckovated” churches all over America.

 

[otjm]

Regarding a monastic tradition of sparseness, much of what one sees today in monastic chapels, such as St. Procopius and many others, stems not from the ideals of the likes of St. Francis of Assisi, who spent a great deal of time beautifying churches. Rather, it came from the influence of people like Thomas Merton, who was in turn heavily influenced by Zen Buddhist theology and architecture. Gethsemani Abbey in Kentucky, Merton’s former home, had a once-magnificent chapel that was skeletonized according to Zen fashion. Much of the modern iconoclasm found in (or inspired by) “Environment and Art” came from Eastern and New Age influences. It is also championed by Fr. Richard Vosko, who has personally “wreckovated” churches all over America.

Um, I understand what you are saying; but “Zen Buddhist theology” is an oxymoron…

And for whatever happened at St Procopius didn’t happen at Our Lady of Guadalupe. Maybe not too much of Merton made it past the Rockies?

 

[PA650]

Are there any guidelines on the layout or design of a church? During my life I have experience many different church designs, most specifially, those of both of my home parishes, growing up and where I am now. When I was a teenager my church was renovated with the front half being the worship space and the back a parish hall. The pews were arranged in a U formation with the altar in the middle. See here are photo of my church growing up:

portlanddiocese.net/gallery.php?gid=92

In the year leading up to this renovation, we had this book able in our parish published by LTP called Enviroment & Art in catholic worship. I got a copy of it and found it fascinating with many photos from various churches around the country, many that had been renovated. One of the churches featured was a parish of the same name in western New York that our pastor at the time visited to get ideas for the renovation of our church. You might remember a post from me back in the spring about this priest that was a great inspiration to me.

The church I attend now is also very moden, built in 1970, its round, with the back half the hall, and front half church and the altar at the center. here is a photo:

corpuschristimaine.org/cgi-bin/pro/emAlbum.cgi?c=show_image;p=Notre Dame;i=30;img=Corpus_Christi 054.jpg

Unfortunetly the church in which I grew up no longer exists. The building was torn down in October because of naturally caused structural damage that would have cost more than a million dollars to repair. The plan is to build a smaller, more energy efficient building this year. A lot of furnishing such as pews were kept. I have yet to find out whether the new church will arrange the old pews in a similar fashion. It was sad to see it go but I’m looking forward to see what kind of new church they will build.

you might need to copy and paste the second link.

Overall, I don’t believe any documents exist that dictate the particular architectural form of a Catholic church. In addition, I prefer the traditional parish design that entails the sanctuary that resembles the shape of a cross, such as found at the Saint Francis Xavier Catholic church at Saint Louis University, St. Louis, MO:

flickr.com/photos/msabeln/4112265539/

 

[PA650]

Regarding a monastic tradition of sparseness, much of what one sees today in monastic chapels, such as St. Procopius and many others, stems not from the ideals of the likes of St. Francis of Assisi, who spent a great deal of time beautifying churches. Rather, it came from the influence of people like Thomas Merton, who was in turn heavily influenced by Zen Buddhist theology and architecture. Gethsemani Abbey in Kentucky, Merton’s former home, had a once-magnificent chapel that was skeletonized according to Zen fashion. Much of the modern iconoclasm found in (or inspired by) “Environment and Art” came from Eastern and New Age influences. It is also championed by Fr. Richard Vosko, who has personally “wreckovated” churches all over America.

He certainly possesses the propensity of moving the altar to the middle of the church no matter the architectural design of the structure. In the end, I’m not much of a fan of his renovations.

 

[Onegin]

Overall, I don’t believe any documents exist that dictate the particular architectural form of a Catholic church. In addition, I prefer the traditional parish design that entails the sanctuary that resembles the shape of a cross, such as found at the Saint Francis Xavier Catholic church at Saint Louis University, St. Louis, MO:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2601/4112265539_ca02b1e9e3.jpg
flickr.com/photos/msabeln/4112265539/

What a beautiful Gothic church! It reminds me of the Lincoln Cathedral out here (though, sadly it is CoE):

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Dicerning]

When visiting some family members over Christmas, I accompanied them to St. Procopius Abbey in Chicago. St Procopius is pretty much the model of modern sparsity in design:

http://www.procopius.org/assets/community/Members_Mass_Altar.jpg

http://www.procopius.org/assets/oblates/Monks_Vespers2.jpg

http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00F/00FoLS-29080484.jpg

.

Wow! Has anyone seen George Lucas’ 1971 flim THX1138 ?

Has anyone seen the inside of a Mormon sealing room
or Masonic Lodge ritual room?

SImilarities

 

[malphono]

The more I look at the photos of that abbey church, the worse it seems. My prior comment about the absence of kneelers still stands, but the only “altar” I see (at least I think that’s what it is) in the first photo is of a blond-oak affair that rather resembles my kitchen table. It seems to be sitting on a one-step platform, which I suppose is the substitute for a pradella. And perhaps it’s the angle of the photo, but I don’t see any candles around although the clergy appear to be vested for OF Mass.

In the second photo, again maybe it’s just the angle but the choir stalls seem to be more like pews. And I have no clue what that black granite thing with what appears to be water in it in the last photo is supposed to be. It looks like a cistern but that can’t be. Can it?

 

[Shin]

Hmmm… I’ve seen worse.

Honestly spartan isn’t so bad as with in-the-round and -bad- art, and junk all in the sanctuary.

‘When we enter ornate and clean Basilicas, adorned with crosses, sacred images, altars and burning lamps, we most easily conceive devotion. But on the other hand, when we enter the temples of the heretics, where there is nothing except a chair for preaching and a table for making a meal, we feel ourselves to be entering a profane hall and not the House of God.’

St. Robert Bellarmine

Uh-oh!

 

[Onegin]

The more I look at the photos of that abbey church, the worse it seems. My prior comment about the absence of kneelers still stands, but the only “altar” I see (at least I think that’s what it is) in the first photo is of a blond-oak affair that rather resembles my kitchen table. It seems to be sitting on a one-step platform, which I suppose is the substitute for a pradella. And perhaps it’s the angle of the photo, but I don’t see any candles around although the clergy appear to be vested for OF Mass.

There was a crucifix carried up and set off to the side, and candles carried in but nothing was there prior. The only other ornamentation is the built-in bench lining the wall behind the altar. Here is a better photo (however in the photo the abbey is decorated for Easter, so when I was there there were not flowers, candle or an altar cloth):

http://www1.georgetown.edu/centers/...s/environment/essentials/0215-1-iv-07-040.jpg

In the second photo, again maybe it’s just the angle but the choir stalls seem to be more like pews. And I have no clue what that black granite thing with what appears to be water in it in the last photo is supposed to be. It looks like a cistern but that can’t be. Can it?

It’s a shame that I don’t have a floor plan, because it’s near impossible to describe the space. There are no real right angles, the altar is kind of a 45-degree angle from the people, the pews are tiered to the right, so that the row where the choir sits is higher (like it was built in a spiral).

The holy water (and I presume baptismal) font (that’s what the black granite thing is) is situated at the entrance. If you continue to the right, you enter a brick labyrinth and come out in the main space.

Oh, and no surprise, when I looked it up, building began in 1967.

 

[malphono]

There was a crucifix carried up and set off to the side, and candles carried in but nothing was there prior. The only other ornamentation is the built-in bench lining the wall behind the altar. Here is a better photo (however in the photo the abbey is decorated for Easter, so when I was there there were not flowers, candle or an altar cloth):

That bench must be for celebrants. Not quite a sedelia, but I digress.

It’s a shame that I don’t have a floor plan, because it’s near impossible to describe the space. There are no real right angles, the altar is kind of a 45-degree angle from the people, the pews are tiered to the right, so that the row where the choir sits is higher (like it was built in a spiral).

That 45-degree angle sounds gruesome. I wonder if the place was designed by a chiropractor looking to drum-up some business?

The holy water (and I presume baptismal) font (that’s what the black granite thing is) is situated at the entrance. If you continue to the right, you enter a brick labyrinth and come out in the main space.

Is this by chance one of the odd situations where the abbey church is also a parish church? If not, it would be really kind of strange for there to be a baptismal font. Wich would leave it as a holy water font. Unless it’s an optical illusion, it looks kind of big for that, which is what made me think of a cistern in the first place.

Oh, and no surprise, when I looked it up, building began in 1967.

But of course. Could it have been otherwise?