Church Arrangements

  • Thread starter Thread starter LoyalViews
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

LoyalViews

Guest
I have seen older churches, where the pews are arranged so that they’re facing each other instead of to the altar, like choir stalls. I have also seen pews with doors at the front which you open to get into, box pews they’re called. Now, I’ve seen the latter mostly in protestant churches, but the former, only in Catholic and CofE/Anglican churches. Also, what are other ways pews can be arranged. What are these arrangement called exactly? I’ve never seen the pews facing each other at the TLM, but I have in older churches. Here’s an example of what I’m talking about.

Pews facing each other
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Thank you and God Bless :signofcross::byzsoc:
 
Yes, box pews are strictly Protestant. The inward-facing seating that you show in your pictures is not really pews, it’s a choir. This was originally used for the antiphonal chanting of the Divine Office, and would not be a place for the lay congregation to sit during Mass. You would therefore only see it in churches attached to monasteries, or cathedrals with chapters of canons, that sort of thing; not at average parishes. It’s definitely Catholic, though – here you can see a 360° panorama of the Basilica di San Clemente in Rome, taken from inside the choir.
 
To add to Mark Thompson’s impeccable and simple description: those choir/quire-“pews” are most likely in a religious order’s chapter house. I wouldn’t exactly call it a true “church”, but more of a chapel dedicated to the Liturgy of the Hours! Anglican arrangements just tend to ape the old Catholic style, keeping their opposite-facing pews in the sanctuary like the monks used to. 🙂
 
The seats in the sanctuary facing each other are the stallums .

The Canons, the advisory body of the bishop were seated there while they chanted the Office and during the Community Mass.

This was also used in religious houses, and in the major seminaries too for the clerics, who were admitted before the ordination by the tonsure.

This is the remnant from the before Vatican II times, when the clerics were strictly separated from the plebs.
 
laszlo said:
This is the remnant from the before Vatican II times, when the clerics were strictly separated from the plebs.
Click to expand...
Some of these remnants are even special brand new remnants, such as this one constructed in 2010.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Actually, everyone here is only partially right.

The stalls (proper name) facing each other, are found in Cathedrals and churches or chapels attached to religious monasteries, friaries, priories or to canons. It is true that they were used to pray the LOTH. However, with the founding of the Franciscans, they also became the place where they celebrated the mass. Prior to the Franciscans, the stalls were only used for the Liturgy of the Hours. Religious houses had a different space for the mass. In Cathedrals, where they had canons, mostly Augustinians, the canons would not sit at the stalls during the mass. The Franciscans were the first to sit at the stalls during the mass, for one everry siimple reason. They were too poor to build large churches and chapels and St. Francis prohibited the building of monasteries. Therefore, the friars lived in convents and still do so. One of the big differences between a convent and a monastery is that a convent has only one worship space. There are other differences too, but that’s the major one, hence the term “conventual mass.”

A church filled with pews was not a common thing in the Latin Church until the Protestants introduced it to us. There were usually a few pews up front, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way toward the back. The wealthy purchased them or paid rent for them and the poor stood behind. To this day, you can enter many of the older European churches and find large open spaces behind the pews. These were for the poor and also used by the military who came inside on their horses. That’s why the lintels on the doors were so high.

The box pew is not a Protestant contraption. It is a German idea,used by Catholics and Protestants. The reason for it was to keep people warm, because parts of Germany are very cold. Many of the old churches had individual stoves at the pew where hot bricks were placed to keep people’s feet warm.

After the Protestant Reformation, the idea of pews from front to back became very popular. The Evangelical style Protestants made it very popular. Because their service is mostly preaching, you sit for a very long period of time, sometimes several hours. The pews were introduced. The Catholics copied the idea, especially after the American and French Revolutions where the idea equality came in and the notion of an ariistocracy went out. However, if you attend mass at one of the older churches in South America, which are older than the Catholic churches in the USA, the Hispanic and Portuguese did not adopt this idea until much later. Therefore, their older churches still have few pews and large open spaces the last 2/3 of the church.

If you attend mass at some older convents of men, you still do not face the altar from the east or west. You face it from the north and south. You’re seeing the mass from the side, because they have stalls, not pews. Some of the newer monastic houses have combined the two spaces into one, in order to make construction less expensive. Remember, a monastic house is for monks and nuns, a convent is for friars and sisters.

In newer monastic houses there is no choir and separate chapel or church, but only one church or chapel. In that case, the choir is often further back than it was in the old days, creating a very large open space around the altar so that the religious stand during the whole mass in that space. Therefore, there are no railings, because you have to accomodate the religious community around the altar. Another thing that is being done in some monastic houses is to keep the stalls close to the front and celebrate mass in the same space where the LOTH is celebrated. That’s a Post Vatican II model for monks and canons. Friars always did it that way. My belief is that as time passes, we borrow from each other, not only across religious tradition inside the Catholic Church, but even from outside the Catholic Church. We do what makes sense and what is econimically possible.

The older monastic houses still have two spaces, a choir for the LOTH and a chapel or large church for the mass. The newer ones can’t afford that. Today, construction is very expensive. With the economic crisis, that type of construction in on pause and the one space for all things is more common.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
Actually, everyone here is only partially right.

The stalls (proper name) facing each other, are found in Cathedrals and churches or chapels attached to religious monasteries, friaries, priories or to canons. It is true that they were used to pray the LOTH. However, with the founding of the Franciscans, they also became the place where they celebrated the mass. Prior to the Franciscans, the stalls were only used for the Liturgy of the Hours. Religious houses had a different space for the mass. In Cathedrals, where they had canons, mostly Augustinians, the canons would not sit at the stalls during the mass. The Franciscans were the first to sit at the stalls during the mass, for one everry siimple reason. They were too poor to build large churches and chapels and St. Francis prohibited the building of monasteries. Therefore, the friars lived in convents and still do so. One of the big differences between a convent and a monastery is that a convent has only one worship space. There are other differences too, but that’s the major one, hence the term “conventual mass.”

A church filled with pews was not a common thing in the Latin Church until the Protestants introduced it to us. There were usually a few pews up front, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way toward the back. The wealthy purchased them or paid rent for them and the poor stood behind. To this day, you can enter many of the older European churches and find large open spaces behind the pews. These were for the poor and also used by the military who came inside on their horses. That’s why the lintels on the doors were so high.

The box pew is not a Protestant contraption. It is a German idea,used by Catholics and Protestants. The reason for it was to keep people warm, because parts of Germany are very cold. Many of the old churches had individual stoves at the pew where hot bricks were placed to keep people’s feet warm.

After the Protestant Reformation, the idea of pews from front to back became very popular. The Evangelical style Protestants made it very popular. Because their service is mostly preaching, you sit for a very long period of time, sometimes several hours. The pews were introduced. The Catholics copied the idea, especially after the American and French Revolutions where the idea equality came in and the notion of an ariistocracy went out. However, if you attend mass at one of the older churches in South America, which are older than the Catholic churches in the USA, the Hispanic and Portuguese did not adopt this idea until much later. Therefore, their older churches still have few pews and large open spaces the last 2/3 of the church.

If you attend mass at some older convents of men, you still do not face the altar from the east or west. You face it from the north and south. You’re seeing the mass from the side, because they have stalls, not pews. Some of the newer monastic houses have combined the two spaces into one, in order to make construction less expensive. Remember, a monastic house is for monks and nuns, a convent is for friars and sisters.

In newer monastic houses there is no choir and separate chapel or church, but only one church or chapel. In that case, the choir is often further back than it was in the old days, creating a very large open space around the altar so that the religious stand during the whole mass in that space. Therefore, there are no railings, because you have to accomodate the religious community around the altar. Another thing that is being done in some monastic houses is to keep the stalls close to the front and celebrate mass in the same space where the LOTH is celebrated. That’s a Post Vatican II model for monks and canons. Friars always did it that way. My belief is that as time passes, we borrow from each other, not only across religious tradition inside the Catholic Church, but even from outside the Catholic Church. We do what makes sense and what is econimically possible.

The older monastic houses still have two spaces, a choir for the LOTH and a chapel or large church for the mass. The newer ones can’t afford that. Today, construction is very expensive. With the economic crisis, that type of construction in on pause and the one space for all things is more common.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Click to expand...
Thank you Brother! Your posts are always most interesting and informative! I knew that this style was used for pews and not just choir stalls! Thank you. So would this style be called “monastic style” or what? 🙂
MarkThompson said:
Yes, box pews are strictly Protestant. The inward-facing seating that you show in your pictures is not really pews, it’s a choir. This was originally used for the antiphonal chanting of the Divine Office, and would not be a place for the lay congregation to sit during Mass. You would therefore only see it in churches attached to monasteries, or cathedrals with chapters of canons, that sort of thing; not at average parishes. It’s definitely Catholic, though – here you can see a 360° panorama of the Basilica di San Clemente in Rome, taken from inside the choir.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the link!

Oh, and my pictures are pictures of two chapels. They don’t have a choir 🙂

I can’t recall the first one, but the second one is Queens College Chapel in Halifax, where both the Mass is said, and an Anglican service.
 
There are some other pew arrangements that have been used.

In several parishes, the altar dais and sanctuary are in the middle, literally. Pews ring the altar.

A less severe form of this is to have the altar on one wall, and pews in concentric half-circles.

Another form of facing pews is to have the pews angled, 45° or so, so that for LOTH and for mass, both each other and the altar are faced. St. Andrew, in Eagle River (Archdiocese of Anchorage), AK, is such an example; link to PDF of floorplan showing pews.

Pews are a functional item; a way of providing seating and regulating density. German box pews (with their heaters) were an additional practical matter for cold climates.
 
Thanks, JR, I was going to comment that I thought Mark’s comments were not exactly correct. Your answers are most always well researched.
 
Aramis said:
There are some other pew arrangements that have been used.

In several parishes, the altar dais and sanctuary are in the middle, literally. Pews ring the altar.

A less severe form of this is to have the altar on one wall, and pews in concentric half-circles.

Another form of facing pews is to have the pews angled, 45° or so, so that for LOTH and for mass, both each other and the altar are faced. St. Andrew, in Eagle River (Archdiocese of Anchorage), AK, is such an example; link to PDF of floorplan showing pews.

Pews are a functional item; a way of providing seating and regulating density. German box pews (with their heaters) were an additional practical matter for cold climates.
Click to expand...
I’m going to guess that the 45 degree angles are a compromise between pews facing forward and choir stalls that face each other. Just looking at the picture, I can see how that would be practical. They allow you to look at the other side when praying the breviary and allow you to look toward the altar during mass, all with a slight shift of the head. The only time it would not work is if you’re a monk or a friar wearing a cowl, your side view is blocked.
PKinsale said:
The chapel at the Cardinal Rigali Center in St. Louis has facing stalls because it used to be a seminary chapel. It also has several separate altars along the sides between the stalls and walls of the chapel. Quite a beautiful place.

archstl.org/cardinal-rigali-center/imagegallery/pictures-st-vincent-de-paul-chapel

http://archstl.org/files/field-image/vincent-de-paul-chapel-wide.jpg
Click to expand...
Many of the old seminaries imitated religious houses. That is one of the complaints that the Vatican has been trying to address. The Church wants the secular clergy to pray the Breviary, but she does not want to turn them into religious. It’s very difficult to build a chapel of a seminary that allows for the celebration of the Hours and at the same time, does not impose religious customs on them. There was a time when the lines between the secular and the religiuos were so blurred that no one knew what they were. This is reflected in architecture.

The little chapels and altars existed in many places prior to concelebration. In some religious communities, if there was more than one priest in the house, only one celebrated mass and the others attended with the non-clerical brothers and the lay brothers. The idea is to bring out the fraternal character of the religious family. Those houses would not have these altars, because they did not have solo celebrations of the mass. Some orders still forbid them. In some orders, the superior must grant permission to celebrate mass alone. It varies from one community to another.

Given concelebration, there is no longer a need for so many chapels with the smaller altars. I’m not sure how societies like the FSSP do it, since they don’t usually celebrate the OF or the Canons of St. John Cantius. I imagine that they have several altars or they have some kind of schedule in order to use the one altar. 🤷

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Br. JR

if my memory serves me right, th FSSP(at least at their seminary ) have multiple side altars for private Masses to be said by the clergy that did not celebrate the main Mass
 
Montalo said:
Br. JR

if my memory serves me right, th FSSP(at least at their seminary ) have multiple side altars for private Masses to be said by the clergy that did not celebrate the main Mass
Click to expand...
I figured that they had to come up with some practical solution.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Montalo said:
Br. JR

if my memory serves me right, th FSSP(at least at their seminary ) have multiple side altars for private Masses to be said by the clergy that did not celebrate the main Mass
Click to expand...
Keep in mind also: tradition included only one mass per altar per day until relatively recently; in the Byzantine East, it’s still strong (tho’ economia makes it per antimension, not per altar table).
 
During the recent royal wedding I noticed that people attending mass would not have been able to see past the choir stalls to the altar. Would that have been typical? I spent some time in Europe during college and visited quite a few old churches, but do not recall seeing choir stalls so I have always been curious how these and the altar would have been used.

I had to do quite a bit of searching, but finally found a good picture of the choir in Westminster Abbey (perhaps some of this layout came after Henry XVIII??)

huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/29/westminster-abbey-royal-wedding_n_855310.html#s271315&title=From_Westminster_Abbey
 
Eugenius said:
During the recent royal wedding I noticed that people attending mass would not have been able to see past the choir stalls to the altar. Would that have been typical? I spent some time in Europe during college and visited quite a few old churches, but do not recall seeing choir stalls so I have always been curious how these and the altar would have been used.

I had to do quite a bit of searching, but finally found a good picture of the choir in Westminster Abbey (perhaps some of this layout came after Henry XVIII??)

huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/29/westminster-abbey-royal-wedding_n_855310.html#s271315&title=From_Westminster_Abbey
Click to expand...
The original abbey was not what it is today. It did not serve as a cathedral or basilica. In fact, even under the Anglicans, it was a cathedral for less than 20 years. The abbey was much smaller. Kings added to it. The last to add to it was Henry VII who added a chapel to the Blessed Mother.

The original abbey was a typical monastic choir and was inhabited by Benedictine monks. The lay faithful were excluded from the mass at monasteries, friaries and priories. There were separate chapels and cathedrals built to meet the needs of the lay faithful.

To this day, in many religious houses of men, the chapel is inside the cloister, making it inaccessible to the lay person. Carthusians had a very interesting custom, I’m not sure if they still do. Their custom was that the laity was never to see them pray or celebrate mass.

The idea of erecting barriers was not unusual in monastic construction. You either built a barrier or you enclosed the chapel or monastery church inside the cloister.

The mendicants were the first to allow the lay faithful access to their chapels. They built them in such a way that they were accessible from both sides, the cloister and the outside.

Some Benedictines, of the older tradition, also had monastery churches that were huge and allowed the lay faithful to attend mass. Those would not have the choir stalls. The choir stalls would be found in the choir, which was an actual room within the enclosure, where the monks prayed the Hours. In other words, it was a chapel.

The mendicants: Carmelites, Dominicans, Trinitarians and Franciscans did not have all of these spaces. They had one or the other. They had either a chapel that was accessible to the laity or one that was not accessible. They did not have the custom of two spaces, one for the choir and one for the mass. I’m not sure about the Norbertines, even though they are contemporary with the other mendicants.

When you visit Europe, unless the church was part of a religious house the celebrated the Hours in common, it would not have choir stalls or it would have them inside the house in the chapel known as the choir, not the main the church itself.

That’s still the way that it is in most religious houses of male orders. The congregations are different. They have different rules and customs. The orders will often have a church, such as a parish church and a chapel inside the religious house that may be adjacent to the parish church. Access to the chapel is restricted or completely off limits, depending on the position of the chapel to the rest of the house.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
This is a typical monastery church .

The mass that’s being celebrated is the investiture mass. It’s in the Ordinary Form with the Benedictine usage. But you will notice several things about this chapel, which are very typical of chapels and churches in the houses of orders of men, not congregations. Remember, congregations are a different group of religious with their own customs and their rules.

The sanctuary is open. There is no railing. This allows everyone in the house, priests and non priests to gather around the altar. It also allows the religious to come up to the front to sing for the community.

The tabernacle is in a space adjacent to the sanctuary. This custom dates back to the time of St. Benedict or earlier. Sometimes, this space is behind the sanctuary and sometimes it’s to the side.

The choir stalls are set back so as to allow as much open space as possible in the front. Otherwise, if you have many brothers, you can’t all gather in the sanctuary and you would have to limit the sanctuary only to the priest. When possible, you built with a lot of space.

These choir stalls are used for the Hours only during certain times of the year. During the winter months, most monks have a separate choir where they recite or chant the office. The reason is a practical one. Churches were built so that the side walls were the North and South, since the altar had to be on the Eastern wall. That was fine and good, except during winter.

What they did was to create a winter choir where the side walls are the East and West. This way that sun warms the choir stalls as it passes over the house. In the other floor plan there are not many windows over the Eastern and Western walls, if any, since these are either the sanctuary or the main entrance. During the warm weather, the church is very pleasant, because it gets little direct sun. In winter it also gets little direct sun and it’s very unpleasant. When you have to spend four hours a day or longer in that choir, it can get very cold.

Today’s monastic buildings have built in central heating. That was not the case 100 years ago, much less central AC in the summer. As warm as a habit may look, they are deceptive. They are hot and uncomfortable in the summer and they are not warm enough in the winter. Men’s habits are usually made of serge, the kind used to make military uniforms.

Today, some houses will place seats for lay people between the stalls and the sanctuary, provided that the church is not inside the cloister. In the past, that was not allowed. The laity sat behind the stalls and could not see very well. They still can’t see very well, because the monks gather around the altar; but it’s a little better. I guess.

The mendicants use a slightly different arrangement. The stalls are usually on either side of the altar or they run the full length of the chapel with the altar in the center front. You’re facing each other, not the altar. Some communities will gather all of the brethren around the altar during the Eucharistic prayer, others do not. It depends on the traditions of the community. In some communities, if there are more than one priest in the house they concelebrate and the other religious stand by their side. While some communities only allow one man to celebrate mass while everyone else attends the mass, including priests. This was introduced by the mendicants to reinforce the idea of brothers sharing at the table of the Lord. This dates back to about 1209. Even back then, they had the balance between sacrifice and meal and designed their spaces accordingly. Except that the mendicants were too poor to have more than one space. Everything happened in one space: mass, Divine Office, and Eucharistic Adoration. Whereas monks had distinct spaces for each purpose and even spaces for each season.

The Franciscans broke with the tradition by not requiring a choir. Franciscans did and still do often recite the Liturgy of the Hours in a chapel facing forward or even walking down the street in pairs. To us, the choir is not part of our tradition. It is nice, but not a requirement. The requirement is that the brethren pray together and celebrate one mass together. If you have the money, you build a chapel with a choir. Otherwise, you don’t.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
Actually, everyone here is only partially right.

The stalls (proper name) facing each other, are found in Cathedrals and churches or chapels attached to religious monasteries, friaries, priories or to canons. It is true that they were used to pray the LOTH. However, with the founding of the Franciscans, they also became the place where they celebrated the mass. Prior to the Franciscans, the stalls were only used for the Liturgy of the Hours. Religious houses had a different space for the mass. In Cathedrals, where they had canons, mostly Augustinians, the canons would not sit at the stalls during the mass. The Franciscans were the first to sit at the stalls during the mass, for one everry siimple reason. They were too poor to build large churches and chapels and St. Francis prohibited the building of monasteries. Therefore, the friars lived in convents and still do so. One of the big differences between a convent and a monastery is that a convent has only one worship space. There are other differences too, but that’s the major one, hence the term “conventual mass.”

A church filled with pews was not a common thing in the Latin Church until the Protestants introduced it to us. There were usually a few pews up front, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way toward the back. The wealthy purchased them or paid rent for them and the poor stood behind. To this day, you can enter many of the older European churches and find large open spaces behind the pews. These were for the poor and also used by the military who came inside on their horses. That’s why the lintels on the doors were so high.

The box pew is not a Protestant contraption. It is a German idea,used by Catholics and Protestants. The reason for it was to keep people warm, because parts of Germany are very cold. Many of the old churches had individual stoves at the pew where hot bricks were placed to keep people’s feet warm.

After the Protestant Reformation, the idea of pews from front to back became very popular. The Evangelical style Protestants made it very popular. Because their service is mostly preaching, you sit for a very long period of time, sometimes several hours. The pews were introduced. The Catholics copied the idea, especially after the American and French Revolutions where the idea equality came in and the notion of an ariistocracy went out. However, if you attend mass at one of the older churches in South America, which are older than the Catholic churches in the USA, the Hispanic and Portuguese did not adopt this idea until much later. Therefore, their older churches still have few pews and large open spaces the last 2/3 of the church.

If you attend mass at some older convents of men, you still do not face the altar from the east or west. You face it from the north and south. You’re seeing the mass from the side, because they have stalls, not pews. Some of the newer monastic houses have combined the two spaces into one, in order to make construction less expensive. Remember, a monastic house is for monks and nuns, a convent is for friars and sisters.

In newer monastic houses there is no choir and separate chapel or church, but only one church or chapel. In that case, the choir is often further back than it was in the old days, creating a very large open space around the altar so that the religious stand during the whole mass in that space. Therefore, there are no railings, because you have to accomodate the religious community around the altar. Another thing that is being done in some monastic houses is to keep the stalls close to the front and celebrate mass in the same space where the LOTH is celebrated. That’s a Post Vatican II model for monks and canons. Friars always did it that way. My belief is that as time passes, we borrow from each other, not only across religious tradition inside the Catholic Church, but even from outside the Catholic Church. We do what makes sense and what is econimically possible.

The older monastic houses still have two spaces, a choir for the LOTH and a chapel or large church for the mass. The newer ones can’t afford that. Today, construction is very expensive. With the economic crisis, that type of construction in on pause and the one space for all things is more common.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Click to expand...
I don’t suppose you’d know of any resources that would discuss these matters in greater depth?

I’ve visited many churches in the US and in Southeast Germany. I found myself truly fascinated by many, but I think the cathedral in Regensburg got my attention with the pews that had the “shelf” in front, the better for someone to lean upon while they prayed–or so I assumed. As I think about it, they might’ve intended to place an open hymnal book on there too.

Anyway, I’d love to learn more about this aspect of Church’s history. Why did they place these chairs, stalls, or pews this way, not that? Why did they put an altar here, there, or another spot?
On a similar note, how did the altars dedicated to St. Mary and St. Joseph get started? You’ll see those in most older churches I’ve ever seen.

Any help you can offer would be marvelous.

Any suggestions you can make
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top