Church as Body of Christ

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Franciscan

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At what point is the Church transformed into the Body of Christ?

In John 15:20 Jesus says “on that Day you will realize that I am in my Father and I am in you and you are in me.”

That Day he was refering to is Pentecost.

After Pentecost Jesus acts through the Church Liturgically.

So is Pentecost where the transformation occurs.

The wedding feast of the Lamb at the end of time is a final “celebration” of the reality of the two becoming one body.(Eph 5).

Is this correct?
 
I would say it’s when the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles at Pentecost.

Hmmmm, sort of like Christ was incarnated when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary!

Wow!!!
 
Paul describes that the Church is already the Bride of Christ.

“Husbands, be faithful to your wives, as Christ is faithful to His Church”. (Paraphrase)
 
NotWorthy said:
I would say it’s when the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles at Pentecost.

Hmmmm, sort of like Christ was incarnated when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary!

Wow!!!
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NotWorthy, I think we’re on to something. It must be documented somewhere. I appreciate your response.
When I read what you wrote I thought of the epiclesis(prayer for the Holy Spirit to descend) at Mass. Bread and Wine transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ And at Pentecost, the Church tranformed into the Body and Blood of Christ.
St. Paul knew that Christ referred to the Church as his own Body when at his concersion He said, “Why do you persecute ME?” Christ identifies himself with the Church. Later we see st. paul in eph 5 cobnnecting the Church as both his Body and His bride.(post-Pentecost).

So the Wedding Feast of the Lamb is a celebration of the reality that the Church is already(since Pentecost) the Body/Bride of Christ (the 2 become one).

Im teaching a section on Liturgy and how the actions of the church are actions of Christ based on this fusion of the Two.
That’s why I wanted to verify my understanding.

Please add anything else…Anyone…😉
 
NotWorthy said:
Quickly!!!

Go to John Martignoni’s site and download Marriage and the Eucharist.

You’ll love it!
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I agree! It is awesome. I put in on my laptop and then took it to meet my dh at McDonalds. As we listened to it we noticed more and more of the patrons just sitting there listening to it in awe along with us. Afterwards a few people came up to me and asked who it was talking and I gave them the web address… It was quite a moment to see all these people in McDonalds listening and thinking about God, marriage and the Eucharist.
 
BlestOne said:
I agree! It is awesome. I put in on my laptop and then took it to meet my dh at McDonalds. As we listened to it we noticed more and more of the patrons just sitting there listening to it in awe along with us. Afterwards a few people came up to me and asked who it was talking and I gave them the web address… It was quite a moment to see all these people in McDonalds listening and thinking about God, marriage and the Eucharist.
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Could you smell the talk about Contraception and Abortion coming about 5 minutes before he hit you with it?

It just makes so much sense!!!
 
I dont have access on this computer to download talks.
Too bad Im sure it is good…

I have been looking into answering my question and came up with this…
  1. The Chuirch as the Body of Christ came into being with his death on the cross. As the Spouse of the first Adam came from his side; so the Church, as Bride, is formed/taken from His side Blood-Eucharist, Water-Baptism).
  2. The Holy Spirit, The Lord, “The Giver of Life” gave life to the Mystical Body of Christ by the Indwelling that resulted from Pentecost. The Holy Spirit is the soul of the Mystical Body.
Here are some quotes…

“The Church came into being when Christ died on the Cross, but it was formally inaugurated on Pentecost, when He sent the Holy Spirit as He had promised. St. Paul speaks of all Christians as members of Christ, so that with Him, they form one Mystical Body (Cf. 1 Cor 12:12-31; Col 1:18; 2:18-20; Eph. 1:22-23; 3:19; 4:13). St. Paul did not use the word Mystical. It was developed more recently to bring out the fact that this union is unique, there is no parallel to it. It is not the same as the union of a physical body, nor that of a business corporation”. (The Catholic Church is The Mystical body of Christ, Fr. William Most).

Pope Pius XII, in #26 in his Encyclical titled The Mystical Body said, “As We set out briefly to expound in what sense Christ founded His social Body, the following thought of Our predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII, occurs to Vs at once: “The Church which, already conceived, came forth from the side of the second Adam in His sleep on the Cross, first showed Herself before the eyes of men on the great day of Pentecost.”[23] For the Divine Redeemer began the building of the mystical temple of the Church when by His preaching He made known His precepts; He completed it when He hung glorified on the Cross; and He manifested and proclaimed it when He sent the Holy Ghost as Paraclete in visible form on His disciples”.

“The Church became alive with the Holy Spirit’s descent into her members. It is the Holy Spirit that has kept unity for the past nearly two thousand years. The Holy Spirit is entirely in the Christ, who is the Head of the Mystical Body. The Holy Spirit is also entirely in the living members of the Mystical Body and in the three parts make up the Church’s teaching: Scripture (in which the Holy Spirit inspired the human writers), Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church.”( The Soul of the Mystical Body, by Christine J. Murray)

Still not satisfied with locating the actual fusion of the Head and the Body. I dont see it in either the death or Pentecost.

If we say the Eucharist (which is tantamount to the marital act, a consumation), then we have to go back to the Last Supper, and the disciples on the road to Emmaus, both are pre-Pentecost.

Also the connection with Pentecost and the Epiclesis is spurious.
 
Franciscan said:
I dont have access on this computer to download talks.
Too bad Im sure it is good…

I have been looking into answering my question and came up with this…
  1. The Chuirch as the Body of Christ came into being with his death on the cross. As the Spouse of the first Adam came from his side; so the Church, as Bride, is formed/taken from His side Blood-Eucharist, Water-Baptism).
  2. The Holy Spirit, The Lord, “The Giver of Life” gave life to the Mystical Body of Christ by the Indwelling that resulted from Pentecost. The Holy Spirit is the soul of the Mystical Body.
Here are some quotes…

“The Church came into being when Christ died on the Cross, but it was formally inaugurated on Pentecost, when He sent the Holy Spirit as He had promised. St. Paul speaks of all Christians as members of Christ, so that with Him, they form one Mystical Body (Cf. 1 Cor 12:12-31; Col 1:18; 2:18-20; Eph. 1:22-23; 3:19; 4:13). St. Paul did not use the word Mystical. It was developed more recently to bring out the fact that this union is unique, there is no parallel to it. It is not the same as the union of a physical body, nor that of a business corporation”. (The Catholic Church is The Mystical body of Christ, Fr. William Most).

Pope Pius XII, in #26 in his Encyclical titled The Mystical Body said, “As We set out briefly to expound in what sense Christ founded His social Body, the following thought of Our predecessor of happy memory, Leo XIII, occurs to Vs at once: “The Church which, already conceived, came forth from the side of the second Adam in His sleep on the Cross, first showed Herself before the eyes of men on the great day of Pentecost.”[23] For the Divine Redeemer began the building of the mystical temple of the Church when by His preaching He made known His precepts; He completed it when He hung glorified on the Cross; and He manifested and proclaimed it when He sent the Holy Ghost as Paraclete in visible form on His disciples”.

“The Church became alive with the Holy Spirit’s descent into her members. It is the Holy Spirit that has kept unity for the past nearly two thousand years. The Holy Spirit is entirely in the Christ, who is the Head of the Mystical Body. The Holy Spirit is also entirely in the living members of the Mystical Body and in the three parts make up the Church’s teaching: Scripture (in which the Holy Spirit inspired the human writers), Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church.”( The Soul of the Mystical Body, by Christine J. Murray)

Still not satisfied with locating the actual fusion of the Head and the Body. I dont see it in either the death or Pentecost.

If we say the Eucharist (which is tantamount to the marital act, a consumation), then we have to go back to the Last Supper, and the disciples on the road to Emmaus, both are pre-Pentecost.

Also the connection with Pentecost and the Epiclesis is spurious.
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Scott Hahn did a beautiful writing on this in his book “Our Father’s Plan” in the appendix section that agrees with everything you’ve just written. Maybe I can find it and post it later this evening.
 
Two things have been debated and they seem to parrallel eachother.

There is a debate between East and West on when the actual transubstantiation happens…

The West holds that it takes place during the words of consecration (words of Last Supper).“This is my Body, This is my blood”.

This coincides with the transformation of the church into his mystical body as happening at the cucifixion.

East holds to the words of the Epiklesis, the calling down of the Holy Spirit over the gifts(CCC 1353).

This coincides with the transformation of the church into the mystical body at pentecost.
 
Franciscan, good point.

I seem to have always thought that the Church may have been born when the Lance struck Jesus in the side and the water came out with the Blood. And the Pentecost was her “coming out” party.

But unless the Holy Spirit resides in the Apostles at this time (at the cross), the Church cannot be considered Holy. And the Church has always been One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

You see my conundrum, here?
 
Yes Notworthy I see the conundrum.
But an even bigger conundrum related to it is…

How can the body function without a soul?

How can the Church act as the body of Christ (act liturgically) without the sanctification of Pentecost, and the indwelling that resulted from Pentecost?

Were pre-Pentecost sacraments the same as Post-Pentecost sacraments?

How liturgical was the pre-pentecost Church?

But here is the case that the body was in existence as the mystical Body from the crucifixion (from Fr. Hardon)…

"To such an extent was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shutoff the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom," as a divine confirmation that the Church of the New Testament was born.”

"It was on the tree of the Cross that He entered into possession of His Church, that is, of all the members of His Mystical Body; for they would not have been united to this Mystical Body through the waters of baptism, except by the salvific power of the Cross."

“We may conclude, therefore, that the building of the Church was completed when Christ said, ‘It is finished,’ because nothing then remained but death, which immediately followed, and consummated the price of our redemption."

He (Hardon) goes on to relate the Pre-pentecost Church to the hidden life of Christ. Christ baptism initiated his public life, just as Pentecost initiated the Church’s public life…

“While the Church was fully instituted on the Cross, her existence as a new reality in the world remained comparatively hidden until the day of Pentecost.”

“By which He intended to parallel the beginning of the Church’s apostolate with the start of His own public life. At the baptism in the Jordan, “He was made known by His eternal Father through the Holy Spirit descending and remaining on him in the form of a dove.” Now he sent the same divine Spirit upon the Apostles, “To teach them with tongues of fire and point out, as by the finger of God, the supernatural offices of the Church,” as a continuation of His own mission from the Father.”

He sees the Church passing through stages early on…

**“The popular concept of Pentecost Sunday as the birthday of the Church needs to be somewhat revised. Actually there were three states in the Church’s foundation: the first preliminary, in which “the Redeemer began the building of the mystical temple of the Church when by His preaching He made known His precepts,” the second definitive when “He completed the Church while hanging glorified on the Cross,” and the final declarative “when He proclaimed it by sending the Holy Spirit as Paraclete in visible form on the disciples.” **
 
So, my original analysis :
I would say it’s when the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles at Pentecost.
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Hmmmm, sort of like Christ was incarnated when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary!
Click to expand...
Can be tweaked just a little:

When the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles at Pentecost, the Body had it’s coming out party. It was created at the foot of the Cross but was incarnated at Pentecost.

Just like Christ was incarnated when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, even though He had existed eternally before that.

Am I getting warmer? Or should I go with a completely different analogy.
 
Franciscan said:
Two things have been debated and they seem to parrallel eachother.

There is a debate between East and West on when the actual transubstantiation happens…

The West holds that it takes place during the words of consecration (words of Last Supper).“This is my Body, This is my blood”.

This coincides with the transformation of the church into his mystical body as happening at the cucifixion.

East holds to the words of the Epiklesis, the calling down of the Holy Spirit over the gifts(CCC 1353).

This coincides with the transformation of the church into the mystical body at pentecost.
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In the CCC 1109, the Epiclesis is a prayer asking for transformation of both the gifts and the Church, “The Church therefore asks the Father to send the Holy Spirit to make the lives of the fiathful a living sacrifice to God by their spiritual transformation into the image of Christ…”
 
Franciscan said:
At what point is the Church transformed into the Body of Christ?

In John 15:20 Jesus says “on that Day you will realize that I am in my Father and I am in you and you are in me.”

That Day he was refering to is Pentecost.

After Pentecost Jesus acts through the Church Liturgically.

So is Pentecost where the transformation occurs.

The wedding feast of the Lamb at the end of time is a final “celebration” of the reality of the two becoming one body.(Eph 5).

Is this correct?
Click to expand...
Many early Church Fathers saw the birth of the Church in the water and blood that poured forth from the pierced side of Christ. Just as Eve was taken from Adam’s rib while he slept, so the new Eve, Christ’s Church, was taken from the side of Christ, the new Adam, while he slept on the cross.

The “birthday” of the Church is traditionally regarded as Pentacost.

Since baptism unites us with Christ and makes us one body, I would argue that the Church as Christ’s body commenced with the first baptism, but that isn’t recorded in the Gospels.
 
Im bumping this thread with the hopes that someone could give answers to questions that i posed through out.

The reason it’s(p(name removed by moderator)ointing when the Church ‘becomes’ the body of Christ) important is because is becuase in teaching about liturgy the main priinciple is that the Church’s actions are really christ actions becuase we are His Body/Bride.

In going over this thread, just now, i noticed that a few of mt responses have dissapeared.

So let me restate a few questions…
  1. Befor Pentecost was there liturgy going on?
  2. If so, doesnt that contradict the Holy Spirit became the Soul of the Church-mystical body at pentecost?
  3. How does a body function without a soul?
  4. The textbook I have says that Pentecost made liturgy possible.
  5. Is there a known connection between Pentecost and the epilesis at Mass?
  6. Is there a connection with the transformation of the Church into the Body of Christ and the transubstantiation of the Eucharist?
  7. If so then is there’s a debate between East and west over when the Church is transformed into mystical Body? Because if we agree on that we might be able to agree on when the transubstantiation occur.
  8. Could it be a “both/and” type of reality. Both the crucifixion and pentecost, both the epiklesis and words of consecration.
 
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