Church attire (all kinds)

[Denise1957]

This is a great post and addresses some important issues in the Traditional movement. While some Trads wear dresses and skirts everyday there is also the clandestine crowd that dress frumpy for the Tridentine mass and go home to change into their tight jeans and tight T-shirt. Then there is the crowd that wear the long skirts and dresses everyday but feel so uncomfortable in public that they only frequent other Trads homes and rearly go out unless in a group to feel okay about their dress. There is definitely pressure to conform to this standard with this group and a sense that they are holier because of their wardrobe, never mind the arrogance associated with it. The tridentine mass has suffered much from the women and their weirdness over the appropriate wardrobe to belong to these parishes. Many families have been “run off” because of their unwillingness to conform with the “dress code”. I’ve heard girls say “What’s with the uniform?” after leaving a Tridentine mass and comment on how weird it is. It’s like stepping back in time,Laura Ingalls Wilder style.

Ladies we live in 2011. God put us here, now for a reason. He could have put us on earth in 1880 or 1950 but he didn’t. I read a book in which St. Jane de Chantal wrote to one of her daughters advising her of what kind of dresses she should have made to fit in with the court that she would be expected to socialized with. Imagine a saint worried about the latest fashions and knowing that clothes matter with women.

If the women who attend the Tridentine mass get too outlandish with their clothes, no one but maybe the eccentric, will want to belong to these parishes. It’s time to let the Catholic world know that the Tridentine mass is for all women …pants, skirts or dresses as long as they are modest.

The TLM is indeed for all women, as you have said, so isn’t it also for those who wear Laura Ingalls Wilder clothing? After all, this style is modest. This isn’t the that style I personally wear, but I quite admire those who wear the prairie style because it is they, above all, who don’t really care so much about what others think regarding the latest fashion sense.

I’m not embarrassed by them, just as I’m not embarrassed by women who wear pants at the TLM. They (those who wear prairie style) belong at the TLM as much as anyone else. Quite often it is they who have been attending the TLM for a long time, while others are relative newcomers.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Ladies we live in 2011. God put us here, now for a reason. He could have put us on earth in 1880 or 1950 but he didn’t.

Yes, we live in 2011. In America at least, a time of incredible sexual depravity and extreme immodesty. If anything we need to develop the virtue of modesty more then those who lived in 1880 or 1950.

The question is should Catholic passively follow the secular culture wherever it leads them, or should they work to transform the culture when possible and to resist it when not?

 

[TrueLight]

Yes, we live in 2011. In America at least, a time of incredible sexual depravity and extreme immodesty. If anything we need to develop the virtue of modesty more then those who lived in 1880 or 1950.

The question is should Catholic passively follow the secular culture wherever it leads them, or should they work to transform the culture when possible and to resist it when not?

Amen.

 

[odile53]

Ladies we live in 2011. God put us here, now for a reason. He could have put us on earth in 1880 or 1950 but he didn’t.

Well said.

I might add, the good Lord chose me to be here right now in a small city in the twenty-first century United States, not in an isolated village someplace in the Middle East, or in a fundamentalist survivalist compound somewhere out West.

 

[crazzeto]

If I could put it his way - yes I dress more casually for Mass than for work. I work in a profession where suits are expected. And so I wear one during the week. Purely out of human respect - other people would get miffed if I dressed more casually, and muchore importantly I would soon find myself out of a job.

Do you honestly want me to bring that same attitude - one of oppressive conformity combined with fear that I won’t “fit in” with the other folks - to my dressing for Mass? And treat my Sabbath Eucharist as one more grinding obligation to be endured along with those of my working week?

Or should I instead treat it as a joyful time of release from workaday social pressures? A time when I am face to face with my God and lay all my cares on him, including yhe burdensome obligations of dressing according to code? A time when other humans simply don’t matter as much?
And if so, then am I not entitled to express that attitude in a slightly less formal choice of clothing?

This part of the answer is for LilyM and odile53 below, then I have a seperate answer more for the second posting but I suppose partially for both…

The fact of the matter is this, modest and yes formal dress at mass is not exclusivly for women only, it is not a man verses woman thing, nor is it a comformity to society thing. This is not about oppression in any sense, so no such arguement will be accepted as a reson not to dress well for Mass.

Dressing well for Mass is about bringing your best from the outside in to God when you are in his presense. Pure and simple. It’s not for the man, woman or child sitting next to you (or at least, not as much for them) as it is for you presenting your best to God.

Would I expect you to dress this way for Mass? Well my expectations are neither here nor there, so dress as you please. But since you relate your work environment let me relate mine.

I work at what was as of two years ago a small medical software company, we have since been bought out by a far larger multinational corperate, but we’ve maintained our small company culture at least to large extent. We’re very informal, and casual except of course when we have large important guests in our office in which case we dress up.

But for Mass, I dress up each and every time I’m there. So actually, for me at least, I typically dress a lot better for Mass than I do for work. I suppose this would violate your view point.

Ladies we live in 2011. God put us here, now for a reason. He could have put us on earth in 1880 or 1950 but he didn’t.

Well said.

I might add, the good Lord chose me to be here right now in a small city in the twenty-first century United States, not in an isolated village someplace in the Middle East, or in a fundamentalist survivalist compound somewhere out West.

odile53, let me put what you said another way.

God put me in a time and a place where it is very acceptable for men to go to strip clubs, and in fact in many cases if a woman wants to date a particular guy she has to go to strip clubs with him to prove she’s “cool” enough to be with him.

In the culture we live in, it is acceptable and encouraged to never get married, and live in semi-perminent “open relationships”. It is considered the pinical of life to go to drunken parties, and engage in all sorts of debatury. More over, it is a good thing to encourage women to strip at said parties, and make out with other women and to push them to do as much as a sexual display for the whole group as is humanly possible.

So I guess following your logic, since God put me in these times that must mean that’s what he wants me to do right?

 

[Walking_Home]

This is a great post and addresses some important issues in the Traditional movement. While some Trads wear dresses and skirts everyday there is also the clandestine crowd that dress frumpy for the Tridentine mass and go home to change into their tight jeans and tight T-shirt. Then there is the crowd that wear the long skirts and dresses everyday but feel so uncomfortable in public that they only frequent other Trads homes and rearly go out unless in a group to feel okay about their dress. There is definitely pressure to conform to this standard with this group and a sense that they are holier because of their wardrobe, never mind the arrogance associated with it. The tridentine mass has suffered much from the women and their weirdness over the appropriate wardrobe to belong to these parishes. Many families have been “run off” because of their unwillingness to conform with the “dress code”. I’ve heard girls say “What’s with the uniform?” after leaving a Tridentine mass and comment on how weird it is. It’s like stepping back in time,Laura Ingalls Wilder style.

Ladies we live in 2011. God put us here, now for a reason. He could have put us on earth in 1880 or 1950 but he didn’t. I read a book in which St. Jane de Chantal wrote to one of her daughters advising her of what kind of dresses she should have made to fit in with the court that she would be expected to socialized with. Imagine a saint worried about the latest fashions and knowing that clothes matter with women.

If the women who attend the Tridentine mass get too outlandish with their clothes, no one but maybe the eccentric, will want to belong to these parishes. It’s time to let the Catholic world know that the Tridentine mass is for all women …pants, skirts or dresses as long as they are modest.

---

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Yes, we live in 2011. In America at least, a time of incredible sexual depravity and extreme immodesty. If anything we need to develop the virtue of modesty more then those who lived in 1880 or 1950.

The question is should Catholic passively follow the secular culture wherever it leads them, or should they work to transform the culture when possible and to resist it when not?

Hmmm…but your idea of transforming the culture and someone else’s might be different…no?

Why people may agree that a mini skirt is not appropriate to Mass and is exreme immodesty…there is a wide range of opinions on women wearing pants or a man wearing well pressed, to the knee shorts…that is where the disagreement lies. You might (might) consider them to be immodest…where other people don’t.

My question is still out there for everyone…argueing in this forumn is one thing…but what do you do when you see someone at Mass that is dressed…in your opinion…immodest?

 

[odile53]

To the poster who used my statement as evidence of logical support for a sinful life: I think you missed the point entirely.

Wearing outlandishly frumpy clothing does not make one holy, any more than wearing a space suit would make one an astronaut. Wearing average contemporary clothing that maintains generally accepted principles of modesty and good taste is perfectly adequate to wear to Mass.

A contemporary lifestyle is not automatically a sinful lifestyle, and I fear that, viewed through the rosy lens of nostalgia, some individuals believe that times gone by were far holier. They weren’t necessarily. Men went to obscene performances, women attempted to procure abortions, and all sorts of things occurred which were not publicized. Affairs occurred. These things just weren’t talked about publicly, and certainly weren’t blared in the media twenty four hours a day.

I will continue to occasionally attend a Tridentine Mass because I do understand Latin fairly well and I appreciate good music offered in praise of the Lord. I will do so in business casual, frequently in slacks, and without mantilla. I will continue to try to restrain my curiosity from being piqued when it looks as if a delegation from the local rural Amish community has just arrived, because, quite frankly, that is what the prairie dress crowd looks like to me. I am very thankful that such rigid definitions of appropriate dress are not dictated by the Catholic Church, and are only the opinion of some individuals who may consider themselves somewhat superior, and I will endeavor to not entertain uncharitable thoughts towards them, particularly when I am at Mass.

Additionally, having evaluated the amount of time I spend looking at posts on “dress at Church,” I will be practicing “custody of computer” and do my best to avoid such posts in the future. My clothing has little to do with the state of my soul and is not offensive in most circles. Clothing touted as “modest” looks like a costume to me. We are not going to agree about this. The twain is not going to meet, as the poem goes. I will use my God-given leisure time on CAF to read and respond to posts that are edifying and educational in the one true Faith. There is, obviously, much more to spirituality and the practice of one’s faith than one’s wardrobe. I wish all of you well.

 

[LilyM]

Where did I ever say that the dressing up for Mass thing was for women only? I didn’t and I don’t think anyone else on this thread has either.

And you say you work in a workplace where informal dressing is the norm? Sure. So did the vast majority of people in times past work in agricultural or blue-collar jobs where formal dress was not the norm.

Understandably, then, getting dressed up on the Sabbath IS one of your ways of setting the day apart and marking it as special and set aside for God. And that’s great. For me, putting on the formal clothing would be almost the opposite - it would be putting Church on a par with all my weekday secular work activities, and lessening its joy and specialness.

Does that make things clearer?

This part of the answer is for LilyM and odile53 below, then I have a seperate answer more for the second posting but I suppose partially for both…

The fact of the matter is this, modest and yes formal dress at mass is not exclusivly for women only, it is not a man verses woman thing, nor is it a comformity to society thing. This is not about oppression in any sense, so no such arguement will be accepted as a reson not to dress well for Mass.

Dressing well for Mass is about bringing your best from the outside in to God when you are in his presense. Pure and simple. It’s not for the man, woman or child sitting next to you (or at least, not as much for them) as it is for you presenting your best to God.

Would I expect you to dress this way for Mass? Well my expectations are neither here nor there, so dress as you please. But since you relate your work environment let me relate mine.

I work at what was as of two years ago a small medical software company, we have since been bought out by a far larger multinational corperate, but we’ve maintained our small company culture at least to large extent. We’re very informal, and casual except of course when we have large important guests in our office in which case we dress up.

But for Mass, I dress up each and every time I’m there. So actually, for me at least, I typically dress a lot better for Mass than I do for work. I suppose this would violate your view point.

odile53, let me put what you said another way.

God put me in a time and a place where it is very acceptable for men to go to strip clubs, and in fact in many cases if a woman wants to date a particular guy she has to go to strip clubs with him to prove she’s “cool” enough to be with him.

In the culture we live in, it is acceptable and encouraged to never get married, and live in semi-perminent “open relationships”. It is considered the pinical of life to go to drunken parties, and engage in all sorts of debatury. More over, it is a good thing to encourage women to strip at said parties, and make out with other women and to push them to do as much as a sexual display for the whole group as is humanly possible.

So I guess following your logic, since God put me in these times that must mean that’s what he wants me to do right?

 

[Denise1957]

To the poster who used my statement as evidence of logical support for a sinful life: I think you missed the point entirely.

Wearing outlandishly frumpy clothing does not make one holy, any more than wearing a space suit would make one an astronaut. Wearing average contemporary clothing that maintains generally accepted principles of modesty and good taste is perfectly adequate to wear to Mass.

A contemporary lifestyle is not automatically a sinful lifestyle, and I fear that, viewed through the rosy lens of nostalgia, some individuals believe that times gone by were far holier. They weren’t necessarily. Men went to obscene performances, women attempted to procure abortions, and all sorts of things occurred which were not publicized. Affairs occurred. These things just weren’t talked about publicly, and certainly weren’t blared in the media twenty four hours a day.

I will continue to occasionally attend a Tridentine Mass because I do understand Latin fairly well and I appreciate good music offered in praise of the Lord. I will do so in business casual, frequently in slacks, and without mantilla. I will continue to try to restrain my curiosity from being piqued when it looks as if a delegation from the local rural Amish community has just arrived, because, quite frankly, that is what the prairie dress crowd looks like to me. I am very thankful that such rigid definitions of appropriate dress are not dictated by the Catholic Church, and are only the opinion of some individuals who may consider themselves somewhat superior, and I will endeavor to not entertain uncharitable thoughts towards them, particularly when I am at Mass.

Additionally, having evaluated the amount of time I spend looking at posts on “dress at Church,” I will be practicing “custody of computer” and do my best to avoid such posts in the future. My clothing has little to do with the state of my soul and is not offensive in most circles. Clothing touted as “modest” looks like a costume to me. We are not going to agree about this. The twain is not going to meet, as the poem goes. I will use my God-given leisure time on CAF to read and respond to posts that are edifying and educational in the one true Faith. There is, obviously, much more to spirituality and the practice of one’s faith than one’s wardrobe. I wish all of you well.

I don’t think it’s a bad thing that your curiousity is piqued when you see parishioners dressed as if they were Amish (actually, I think you’ll find that clothing that is truly Amish is different from the calico or prairie style that we see at trad parishes).

As humans, we’re just naturally curious about anything that seems different. But what I’d suggest is that you go out of your way to try to get to know some of the folks who dress this way at your parish; you may be pleasantly surprised.

I recall that when I attended an SSPX chapel, there was a large family who dressed in the prairie style. One of the teen girls of this family volunteered in the chapel bookstore. I talked to her quite a bit, since I read a lot, and purchased many books there. Anyway, she told me that her whole family converted from a Puritan Protestant denomination several years earlier. She didn’t say which denomination it was. But I recall how, when she talked about some of the books she had read from the bookstore, she became so joyful and animated when talking about her favorite saints, especially the Blessed Mother. She so obviously loved our Catholic faith, and was so happy to be learning all that she could about it. She was so sweet and humble, as was her entire family. Probably not all who wear the prairie style are so humble, but I learned that I can’t always judge someone by what they wear.

 

[Elenorann]

I know I won’t find it in the bible, but has anyone read that you should dress for church as if you wre going to a banquet. I thought a long time ago I read some like that.

 

[severus68]

I know I won’t find it in the bible, but has anyone read that you should dress for church as if you wre going to a banquet. I thought a long time ago I read some like that.

Yes, with joy and an open heart in anticipation of the greatest celebration. Its whats inside.

 

[crazzeto]

I know I won’t find it in the bible, but has anyone read that you should dress for church as if you wre going to a banquet. I thought a long time ago I read some like that.

Yes, with joy and an open heart in anticipation of the greatest celebration. Its whats inside.

Biblically speaking, the Kings guest who came not dressed for a wedding (banquate) was thrown out into the pit where there will be whailing and gnashing of teeth… Apparently what’s on the outside reflects what’s on in the inside.

Gosple according to Matthew - 22
drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=22&l=11&f=s#x

And Jesus answering, spoke again in parables to them, saying: [2] The kingdom of heaven is likened to a king, who made a marriage for his son. [3] And he sent his servants, to call them that were invited to the marriage; and they would not come. [4] Again he sent other servants, saying: Tell them that were invited, Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my calves and fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come ye to the marriage. [5] But they neglected, and went their own ways, one to his farm, and another to his merchandise.

[6] And the rest laid hands on his servants, and having treated them contumeliously, put them to death. [7] But when the king had heard of it, he was angry, and sending his armies, he destroyed those murderers, and burnt their city. [8] Then he saith to his servants: The marriage indeed is ready; but they that were invited were not worthy. [9] Go ye therefore into the highways; and as many as you shall find, call to the marriage. [10] And his servants going forth into the ways, gathered together all that they found, both bad and good: and the marriage was filled with guests.

11] And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment. [12] And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? But he was silent. [13] Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [14] For many are called, but few are chosen. [15] Then the Pharisees going, consulted among themselves how to insnare him in his speech.

 

[crazzeto]

odilie53,

The point is this:

You (and others) justify your positon saying “well this is when I was born, this is what everyone else is doing, there for it is justified”…

Well if that’s the case, then everything I posted is true. Totally debatury can be justified, because it is so common today. It is every bit as common as casual dress. So the point is this, don’t accept the times and culture in which you were born as a sign from God that this is a good thing, and that what the culture is doing is what you should be doing.

Rather, consider the scriptures and tradition and wishes of the clergy (in my experience, typically advocate reverent dress) and make your decission based upon what shows best reverence and respect for God. Not what blends in best with the culture.

To the poster who used my statement as evidence of logical support for a sinful life: I think you missed the point entirely.

Wearing outlandishly frumpy clothing does not make one holy, any more than wearing a space suit would make one an astronaut. Wearing average contemporary clothing that maintains generally accepted principles of modesty and good taste is perfectly adequate to wear to Mass.

A contemporary lifestyle is not automatically a sinful lifestyle, and I fear that, viewed through the rosy lens of nostalgia, some individuals believe that times gone by were far holier. They weren’t necessarily. Men went to obscene performances, women attempted to procure abortions, and all sorts of things occurred which were not publicized. Affairs occurred. These things just weren’t talked about publicly, and certainly weren’t blared in the media twenty four hours a day.

I will continue to occasionally attend a Tridentine Mass because I do understand Latin fairly well and I appreciate good music offered in praise of the Lord. I will do so in business casual, frequently in slacks, and without mantilla. I will continue to try to restrain my curiosity from being piqued when it looks as if a delegation from the local rural Amish community has just arrived, because, quite frankly, that is what the prairie dress crowd looks like to me. I am very thankful that such rigid definitions of appropriate dress are not dictated by the Catholic Church, and are only the opinion of some individuals who may consider themselves somewhat superior, and I will endeavor to not entertain uncharitable thoughts towards them, particularly when I am at Mass.

Additionally, having evaluated the amount of time I spend looking at posts on “dress at Church,” I will be practicing “custody of computer” and do my best to avoid such posts in the future. My clothing has little to do with the state of my soul and is not offensive in most circles. Clothing touted as “modest” looks like a costume to me. We are not going to agree about this. The twain is not going to meet, as the poem goes. I will use my God-given leisure time on CAF to read and respond to posts that are edifying and educational in the one true Faith. There is, obviously, much more to spirituality and the practice of one’s faith than one’s wardrobe. I wish all of you well.

 

[Walking_Home]

I don’t think it’s a bad thing that your curiousity is piqued when you see parishioners dressed as if they were Amish (actually, I think you’ll find that clothing that is truly Amish is different from the calico or prairie style that we see at trad parishes).

As humans, we’re just naturally curious about anything that seems different. But what I’d suggest is that you go out of your way to try to get to know some of the folks who dress this way at your parish; you may be pleasantly surprised.

I recall that when I attended an SSPX chapel, there was a large family who dressed in the prairie style. One of the teen girls of this family volunteered in the chapel bookstore. I talked to her quite a bit, since I read a lot, and purchased many books there. Anyway, she told me that her whole family converted from a Puritan Protestant denomination several years earlier. She didn’t say which denomination it was. But I recall how, when she talked about some of the books she had read from the bookstore, she became so joyful and animated when talking about her favorite saints, especially the Blessed Mother. She so obviously loved our Catholic faith, and was so happy to be learning all that she could about it. She was so sweet and humble, as was her entire family. Probably not all who wear the prairie style are so humble, but I learned that I can’t always judge someone by what they wear.

---

Well I can see – how that family fit right in—since the SSPX is already blending together Catholicism and puritanical protestantism. I do not see this as a “good” thing. I can’t say if this is happening all over— across the Society —but it is there non the less.

Below is from a “Trad” site–the woman who stated this–attends an SSPX chapel.

Yes they pretty muh are…there are exceptions of course** but most of them say the same thing. In fact my own priest told me that to wear pants would be a mortal sin**.

 

[Denise1957]

---

Well I can see – how that family fit right in—since the SSPX is already blending together Catholicism and puritanical protestantism. I do not see this as a “good” thing. I can’t say if this is happening all over— across the Society —but it is there non the less.

Below is from a “Trad” site–the woman who stated this–attends an SSPX chapel.

You have a right to your opinion. I personally don’t have a problem with how parishioners dress at trad parishes. I have no issues with the TLM/OF (diocesan-approved, and started by the local ordinary) that I attend. There is quite an intolerance here about how the Catholics at these parishes dress. You want to change how they dress. Good luck with that. Most trads don’t have a problem with the clothing worn there.

 

[asd72]

Biblically speaking, the Kings guest who came not dressed for a wedding (banquate) was thrown out into the pit where there will be whailing and gnashing of teeth… Apparently what’s on the outside reflects what’s on in the inside.

Gosple according to Matthew - 22
drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=22&l=11&f=s#x

Matt 22:11 No wedding garment: A symbol of righteous deeds that accompany faith (Rev 19:7-8) These deeds are outlined in Matthew as almsgiving (6:2-4), prayer (6:5-15), fasting (6:16-18), and works of mercy (25:34-40). Ref Ignatius study bible.

Here is Rev 19:7-8… Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage supper of the lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure, for the fine linen is the RIGHTEOUS DEEDS of the saints.

 

[Walking_Home]

You have a right to your opinion. I personally don’t have a problem with how parishioners dress at trad parishes. I have no issues with the TLM/OF (diocesan-approved, and started by the local ordinary) that I attend. There is quite an intolerance here about how the Catholics at these parishes dress. You want to change how they dress. Good luck with that. Most trads don’t have a problem with the clothing worn there.

---

There is/are SSPX priest(s) out there manipulating women by telling them it is a mortal sin to wear pants—and you talk of “intolerance” here. Yea— I have a problem when women are manipulated and lied to.

 

[Denise1957]

---

There is/are SSPX priest(s) out there manipulating women by telling them it is a mortal sin to wear pants—and you talk of “intolerance” here. Yea— I have a problem when women are manipulated and lied to.

Now you are trying to move the debate in the SSPX realm, when that wasn’t my intention at all. I won’t get sucked into this type of debate. Do you yourself attend a diocesan EF at a Catholic church?

 

[RJB]

I’m kinda on the casual side: I wear jeans and a collared shirt to Mass. I have seen some attires that are very casual and/or tempting to see. I just keep my eyes closed and pray to the Lord, for, after all, that’s why we’re there.