Church Authority and Church Atrocities

[fisherman_carl]

To answer the OP’s question. If someone in the Church whether he be a priest, bishop or Pope asked you to do something that was immoral you would not have to do it.

The question assumes that this person of authority has absolute authority. Not only does he have authority to ask you to do something immoral but also has the authority to make you obey something against your conscience. The truth is no one in the Church has this kind of authority given to them from God. And anyone attempting such a thing is not acting on behalf of Christ or the Church. But out of selfish ambition or pride.

The only one with absolute authority is God. The Church is not a collection of bishops. The Church is the Body of Christ. No one member has the authority to cause others to sin. Jesus said woe to the one who causes these little ones to sin. It would be better if he was tied to a large stone and thrown into the sea.

 

[Cathoholic]

A follow up on a concept discussed earlier on this thread.

Earlier in this thread, we had discussed the concept of “exterminate” (Latin: exterminare) as it relates to Catholic Church documents (specifically in Exsurge Domine).

I happened to be listening to a debate tonight here and heard Karl Keating discussing this very point only it was NOT concerning Exsurge Domine, but the same “exterminate/ exterminare” CONCEPT regarding Pope Martin V.

Keating points out “exterminare” used here, merely means to “deport”.

Some of the posters have brought up this point too (but not expounded on it).

Below is a link AND transcript excerpt from Karl Keating debating Dave Hunt addressing the concept of “exterminate” as it concerned Pope Martin V. The Church used the Latin word “exterminare”.

The debate is labeled as “Dave Hunt vs. Robert Fastiggi / Roman Catholic debates (2 debates)” but the first debate is Dave Hunt Vrs. Karl Keating. Here.

You can hear Karl’s 30-second comment on “exterminate” or more correctly, “exterminare” here at 54:58-55:28.

Note also when Keating uses the word “exterminare”, Keating (appropriately in Latin) trills his tongue on the “r” sound. It will sound as, “ex-term-in-ah-tay.”

I have also provided the exact transcript from the debate here below AND several Latin dictionaries (with accompanying links) that all support what Karl is saying.

Quote from Karl Keating (rebutting Dave Hunt’s assertions)

So many problems. I’ll just go randomly as he went randomly.

He said, Pope Martin the V ordered the extermination of the Hussites.

The word in Latin is exterminare. It does not mean kill. It means to “DEPORT”!

It’s a Latin term. And he brings it into English, thinks that the Latin word means the same as its English derivative. It does not!

Martin did not say that the Hussites should be killed. He instructed the princes of the realm to deport the heretics to another country.

Karl (as usual) I think is right here. Let’s look at several on-line Latin dictionaries that all support what Mr. Keating is saying.

One example:

Exterminare
verb
· conjugation: 1st conjugation
Definitions:

1. banish, expel
2. dismiss
   latin-dictionary.net/search/latin/exterminare

Another example:

Exterminare
banish, expel; dismiss;
archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wordz.pl?keyword=exterminare+

And yet another example:

Latin
Verb
extermināre

1. present active infinitive of exterminō
2. second-person singular present passive imperative of exterminō

Extermino

Latin
Verb
present active exterminō, present infinitive extermināre, perfect active extermināvī, supine exterminātum

1. I expel, exile or banish
2. I abolish, extirpate or destroy

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extermino#Latin

I hope this may have been helpful.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Ingeniero]

It was mentioned in several posts the names of Waldo, Wycliffe, Hus as examples of people who were killed by the Catholic Church because they were heretics.

One example conspicuously absent is that of Joan of Arc. She was burned at the stake as a heretic. But it was not the Catholic Church that condemned her as a heretic rather a bishop with a vested interest who condemned her to death.

Furthermore, when an inquisitorial court authorized by Pope Callixtus III examined her case it pronounced her innocent and declared her a martyr.

The point I’m trying to make is that the Catholic Church did not condemn her to death rather a local clergy (in this case a bishop) who had a non-religious reason for doing so.

 

[dronald]

It was mentioned in several posts the names of Waldo, Wycliffe, Hus as examples of people who were killed by the Catholic Church because they were heretics.

One example conspicuously absent is that of Joan of Arc. She was burned at the stake as a heretic. But it was not the Catholic Church that condemned her as a heretic rather a bishop with a vested interest who condemned her to death.

Furthermore, when an inquisitorial court authorized by Pope Callixtus III examined her case it pronounced her innocent and declared her a martyr.

The point I’m trying to make is that the Catholic Church did not condemn her to death rather a local clergy (in this case a bishop) who had a non-religious reason for doing so.

What would you say were the non-religious reasoning for the killing of the Hussites and Waldo’s followers?

 

[Tzimisce]

I will be upfront with everyone here.

I grew up in the Catholic Church but was never really a Christian while in it. While in college, after having been challenged by my very Catholic father-in-law, I started examining Christianity and after a year of intense study, I became a true Christian for the first time in my life (thank you very much C.S. Lewis).

That was about 3 years ago or so. Since then, I have been trying to find out the truth about Christianity.

One of the great struggles I have with Catholicism is this:

If the Church’s authority is supposed to be accepted by the faithful at all times…What happens when the Church demands its members engage in immoral activities? For instance, at the Fourth Lateran Council, the Church demanded that secular authorities “exterminate” heretics. Pope Leo X’s Papal Bull of 1520 stated that it was an “error” to teach that burning heretics was against the will of the Holy Spirit. Pope John Paul II himself admitted the Church has done some terrible things in its past. Yet, whenever these events have occurred, the Church has demanded obedience from the faithful.

So my question to you is: How can the faithful approach these kinds of situations? If the Church tells me I should exterminate all the heretics (not that I think they would in the future), am I obliged as a Catholic to be obedient? What if the Church says I must do this or be thrown out of the Church?

I am not saying the Church will ask its faithful to burn heretics (those days are behind us I hope), but the same could be said for any command of immorality. How do Catholics know when they should be obedient and when they should reject the authority of the Church? The Catechism and the Canon make it sound like Catholics must always be obedient.

Any sincere help with this would be greatly appreciated. This is a huge stumbling block for me on my way to being Catholic.

God Bless,
Justin

If the past holds judgement on the present then the future is lost.

-Winston Churchill

How does something from the 1500s effect us today?

It only does because someone wants it too.

From what I understand, Christianity is about a struggle against Sin.

And Sin is something that EVERYONE is guilty of - including Popes, Bishops and Cardinals.

The Catholic Church openly admits that it’s not perfect.

One can’t control or change what other people have done. One can only do the best they can in the position they’re in.

Also remember that people haven’t changed.

Explorers during the 1500s did terrible things to non-Christian natives - they were trying to save the non-Christians souls.

Today we go to third world nations and force them into a lifestyle that goes against Global Warming. Never mind that cheap energy, fertilizer, pesticides will allow these starving people to have more food - we have a greater good that we’re working on.