Church Authority: Is it really just a guy in a hat?

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But how can one go to “Anyone who proclaims Christ is Lord” in matters of dispute as Jesus instructed?
In other words, when there is dispute, who should we take advice from?

I would hold the person who seems to be most in accord with God’s will. Normally a pastor or priest.

But that does not mean that someone should take their advice and follow it. There is nothing miraculous protecting their advice from being bad, unless they truly are speaking in accord with God’s will.

And the only way we would know that is through Scripture, reason, and nature.
 
Hi noma! 👋
I’m not trying to be argumentative but if you think the Pope is just a “guy in a hat”, what are your views on the clergy, like the bishops and priests? What are their roles in the CC?
I’m really just asking because I’ve been questioning aspects of my Catholic faith and papal infallibility has been one of the issues. 🙂
 
I will be gone for the rest of the evening, but will return to respond to salient points tomorrow.

Thank you for the insightful questions, and the wonderful perspectives.

This has turned out to be a very enjoyable debate thus far.
 
Members of the Church can fall into error. But not if they are in accord with Christ’s will.

Most of the time, most people aren’t. So most of the time, people make errors in their speech and writing.

But this body of believers is what I believe Christ intends by the Church.

We could, of course later, have another post on that topic.
So how can this body of believers been in error for 1,930 years in unanimously condemning ABC as a sin? And now here you are rejecting the Church and reinterpreting everything how ever you want to in order to justify it?
 
Hi noma! 👋
I’m not trying to be argumentative but if you think the Pope is just a “guy in a hat”, what are your views on the clergy, like the bishops and priests? What are their roles in the CC?
I’m really just asking because I’ve been questioning aspects of my Catholic faith and papal infallibility has been one of the issues. 🙂
Bishops and priests are just ordinary people, like you and me.

What is special about them is the time they spend getting closer to God. And that is the only reason people should pay more mind to their advice.

Their closeness with God makes them more likely to be correct on issues of faith and morals.

I will answer in more detail tomorrow, if you would like, or you can PM me for more information on my own views.
 
I will be gone for the rest of the evening, but will return to respond to salient points tomorrow.

Thank you for the insightful questions, and the wonderful perspectives.

This has turned out to be a very enjoyable debate thus far.
Well, I will spend tonight composing an absolutely brilliant post that you can’t refute. 😉
 
In other words, when there is dispute, who should we take advice from?

I would hold the person who seems to be most in accord with God’s will. Normally a pastor or priest.

But that does not mean that someone should take their advice and follow it. There is nothing miraculous protecting their advice from being bad, unless they truly are speaking in accord with God’s will.

And the only way we would know that is through Scripture, reason, and nature.
How do you know you are in the true Church? There is nothing proving that you are. Let alone, faith alone does not assure one of salvation.

How are you sure the way you think of the Church is the way the Apostles thought of it. How do you know that what you are saying right now is in accordance with God’s will. After all, the Protestants of different denominations claim that they are following God;s will, and that they are interpruting Scripture with God’s Spirit. But you know what? All of them are arguing on who is following Scripture. All say they are being led by the Spirit, but the Spirit cannot err. Only one of them is right. You have no assurance that you are not among the many that are wrong. People in similar denominations claim that they are the ones who interpret Scripture correctly. Yet, if as you say, anyone of any denomination as long as they have faith in Christ, is part of the true Church, what does that mean for how they interpret Scripture.
Many Protestants claim that no matter what Church you are in, you are in God’s Church if you believe in him. Yet this raises a question. If all of these people are in God’s Church, then wouldn’t they believe the same interpretations of Scripture if they are led by ONE Spirit?
You may have a different interpretation of Sripture from a Lutheran, yet as long as you believe in Christ you are part of the True Church, in spite of the fact that you are guided by ONE Spirit, who guides those who interpret Scripture, and believe two completely different things. It is hard to believe because the Spirit is only ONE of a kind and he teaches everyone the same thing.😉
 
Bishops and priests are just ordinary people, like you and me.

What is special about them is the time they spend getting closer to God. And that is the only reason people should pay more mind to their advice.

Their closeness with God makes them more likely to be correct on issues of faith and morals.

I will answer in more detail tomorrow, if you would like, or you can PM me for more information on my own views.
Thanks noma!!! 🙂
Expect a pm when you return. lol 😉
 
The presumption is already there, if Peter gives the keys away. But I don’t think he can. I don’t think Peter had the power to give of the keys.

Because they weren’t really his to begin with.
…
Let me first add something to the “Keys” issue. As you said, either the keys were particularly to Peter, or to Peter and others. Since we see no others in Scripture given the Keys, it would be to Peter’s successors. Now, you assert that the successors of Peter are all Christians, or those who speak in accord with Christ’s will.(Forgive me for paraphrasing or misrepresenting). One reason for the Catholic Church’s belief that it was to Peter’s chosen successors (besides the record of historical Bishops of Rome, to whom the Early Church Fathers looked as an authority, a record which is relevant to the topic, but perhaps at another time) is the nature of the “keys”. This passage in Matthew 16 is a clear allusion to another passage in Isaiah 22.

"20. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliacim the son of Helcias,
21. And I will clothe him with thy robe, and will strengthen him with thy girdle, and will give thy power into his hand: and he shall be as a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Juda.
22. And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.
23. And I will fasten him as a peg in a sure place, and he shall be for a throne of glory to the house of his father.
24. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house, divers kinds of vessels, every little vessel, from the vessels of cups even to every instrument of music.
25. In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall the peg be removed, that was fastened in the sure place: and it shall be broken and shall fall: and that which hung thereon, shall perish, because the Lord hath spoken it. "

Here God commands that the existing steward of the king (or regent, Prime Minister…it’s the second in command, the man who speaks with the King’s authority while the King is away) is deposed, and another put in his place. The Bible says that the key of the house of David are placed on him, as a symbol of his authority. It speaks of opening and shutting, as it does in many other instances. Then it talks about “his father’s house”, that is, the line of Eliacim. This position of stewardship is a hereditary one, although prophesied to be a temporary one, since God says the peg will one day be removed.

Compare this with Christ’s statements. Peter is a Rock, on which He will found a Church. Unlike the “peg fastened in a sure place” which will one day fall out to the ruin of all that hangs on it, this Rock will not falter, for the Church built on it will not fall to the powers of Hell.

So it is reasonable, I think, to assume, as you do, that the keys’ authority do not disappear with Peter’s death, but live on, just as Jesus promised to be with us until the end of time. Moreover, it is reasonable, I think, from what we see in Isaiah, to say that this authority passes one to one particular person. In Eliacim’s case, it was a hereditary role. Peter’s office was one of an Apostle. We see in the beginning of Acts that this office was one not meant to be vacant. (As a side note, notice that it is Peter who says this, and in doing so offers an authoritative interpretation of Scripture which seems to have no bearing on the matter in question. I mention this to show that proper authority can interpret Scripture, even if that Scripture in question does not seem to be “blinding proof” of the intepretation.) The assembled pray, draw lots, and Matthias is chosen to take Judas’ place. It is reasonable to assume that the same would apply to Peter’s position after his death. Indeed, it was so, and a successor to Peter, and to his see, was chosen, perhaps by Peter himself, perhaps by the congregation at Rome, or perhaps by other bishops. Either way, he had a successor. Most of the Early Fathers and other sources I’ve read or heard about agree that this was Linus. There is, then, a known successor to Peter, and successors to him, in the person of the Bishop of Rome. Certainly, there are a myriad of texts, documents, and writings from the first century onward which attest to a certain authority held by this man above and beyond that of bishop.

Anyway, that’s just a little bit of my case for papal authority. I’m sure others here can make better ones, and I’d be happy to go into it deeper anytime, but I’ve got to leave for home soon. Feel free to contact me personally, if you’d like.
 
It’s like Christ established a Church, and then some people said “Church? I don’t need no stinkin Church” All I have to do is say Jesus is Lord and that’s a Church.

No one understood the Church as something like what your saying.

Ask your self, do you now deny the Eucharist? It is clearly defined in Scripture and the Protestants deny it.

read this:

catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp
 
But the Roman Church is not the Catholic Church, nor was it ever.
Sts. Peter and Paul laid the foundations of the Catholic Church in Rome. The “Roman Church” is the Catholic Church and has always been.

Noma, I’m curious. Why do you belong to the Anglican church? It seems odd that someone who believes in their own infallibility as a believer would be a member of an established church at all.
 
Members of the Church can fall into error. But not if they are in accord with Christ’s will…
That begs the question. How do you know if they - or you - “are in accord with Christ’s will”? You have set yourself up as the judge of whether or not you or anyone else in His will. But, you state that you are just a prone to error as anyone else. So, then, you can never be certain that you or anyone else is teaching or acting according to His will. You think this is how Christ, Who is Truth, planned for His Church to function in bringing His Self-revelation to mankind? “I will lead you into some truth (if you can find it) and some error (try to avoid it!)” ?!

I’m wondering how you are obedient to “Obey those who have the rule over you and submit yourself, for they watch for your souls …” (Heb 13:17)?

Having left the Church, you have essentially unbound yourself from this Scriptural command. Oh, you may temporarily submit to the leaders of whatever congregation you have joined, but when you personally disagree with one or more of their teaching, you are free to leave it and find another sect to join without any question (in your mind or theirs) of your Christian orthodoxy. In other words, you have no objective standard of authority that is outside of your personal, subjective intepretation of Scripture or understanding of what Christianity supposedly teaches. Rather, you are your own final authority, and owe obedience to no one/nothing outside yourself. So you have your own key to a door that may or may not lead you to Christ and His Truth. That’s the best you can expect.
 
noma, I wish you well on your faith journey, and I hope you find value in this forum (for whatever my wishes may be worth).

But I’m not going to be able to continue any kind of dialogue, if you continue making statements about situations that are “without error” and then later changing it to situations that “are infallible”.

Peace.
A very good question.

If someone were to speak in accord with the will of Christ, normally that person would have to know Christ’s will.

Most people, unless they are lying, speak what they believe, or at least attempt to.

So for one to teach from the Truth of the Scriptures with that will would imply both knowing it and submitting to it. Else the person is lying, or speaks something true by accident.

Speaking something true by accident, by definition of accident, means that the person has not been made infallible.

Speaking a lie about truth has the same problem.

So only one option remains: one must submit to God’s will in order to speak infallibly about God’s plan.

Faith is seen as man’s response to God. Submission to Christ involves faith in Christ. And so speaking infallibly requires this faith.

But that does not mean that such faith is sufficient for this infallibility.
tee
:tiphat: a guy in a hat 😛
 
You question the Pope and the Magisteriums authority, yet you belong to a faith that was started by a man who couldn’t control his sexual urges and split away from The Catholic Church in order to start a new heretical religion with the sole purpose of granting him an annulment, which he could not receive from The Catholic Church…Was Henry VIII putting his faith in Christ and speaking without error when he did that? :rolleyes:
I believe in the statement Christ gave to Peter, that on this rock He would build His Church. But I think that follows for all believers; that all those in Christ’s Church, who put their faith on Christ, when they speak in accordance with His will, speak without error.

As such, I think there is nothing unique about the Pope, or about any of the Church magisterium. They were right when they spoke with the intentions of Christ. They are wrong about many things now.

So I open up the debate to all of you. Why should I believe that this authority was only for Peter? Granted, it was told only to Peter. St. Paul’s letters were only given to some select church’s. Christ said many things only to a select few. So why believe that the pope is more than a guy in a hat?
 
All of them are arguing on who is following Scripture. All say they are being led by the Spirit, but the Spirit cannot err. Only one of them is right.
There is are two more possibilities: two or more are right, or none are right.

I accept that none are. Some are more correct than others, but theology is a science of discovery. No one is 100% correct, no church is. Only Christ. And we will know (maybe) when we get to heaven who was the closest.

I think not all answers will be given even there.
 
But I’m not going to be able to continue any kind of dialogue, if you continue making statements about situations that are “without error” and then later changing it to situations that “are infallible”.
Then we cannot dialogue unless you tell me what you are using to define “infallible” and “inerrant”.

The way I am using the terms is by seeing them as nearly identical. “Inerrant” means infallibility as it deals with writing. Infallibility means absence of error (not protection from the same).

But the gift of infallibility also implies protection from error, and this is given only when one speaks in accord with the will of God.

I hope this helps.

If this means we can no longer dialogue, then it was a pleasure and a joy to talk while we could.

God bless.
 
That begs the question…
Every single system that deals with humans trying to understand the divine, with incomplete beings relating with the complete, necessarily begs the question.

This has been established as necessary by Godel.

It has been expressed to its emotional degrees by Kierkegaard.

It has been explained by Spinoza and Leibniz.

I think it is taught in Scripture “For the ways of the Lord are unknowable…”
 
There is are two more possibilities: two or more are right, or none are right.

I accept that none are. Some are more correct than others, but theology is a science of discovery. No one is 100% correct, no church is. Only Christ. And we will know (maybe) when we get to heaven who was the closest.

I think not all answers will be given even there.
But then to say that no one is 100% right when speaking about faith and morals, is to imply that Christ is not 100% right.
For Christ said this
“I will guide you[apostles] unto all truth.”

"…and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it[the Church].

I am sorry but Jesus is the giver of his charsm of Infallibilty. His Spirit gives the charsm of Papal Infallibility. He protects the Pope from error. He gives the charsm to whom he wills. It is in scripture that he gave this charsm to the apostles. You cannot say who Jesus can and cannot give it too.
 
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