Church Authority: Is it really just a guy in a hat?

[DesertBrother]

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I ask you to keep me in your prayers.
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You can be sure of that.

 

[DesertBrother]

John 21:15-17
15 So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed My lambs.”
16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my sheep.”
17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, do you love me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: do you love me? And he said to him: Lord, you know all things: you know that I love you. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

“I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

 

[geraldffff]

When you go out and come to a different place do a experirment. I have noticed, I go to Church and look for an entrance to a pew. A lot of them are blocked by people who come and sit right at the end of the pew, the effect is to force others to ask them if they can sit down. Most the time they will hold their ground and make people walk around them to the middle of the pew. They could have been welcoming and moved to the center in the first place, but they did not. In twent years I nevery heard a priest comment on this behivior Is this a reflection of the guy in the hat? I move to the center of the pew as I made a decision I will not allow Pope, Bishop,Priest or laity to discourage me from touching the cloak of the Savior.

 

[Santos]

Noma, I have read much of your posts… and because I beleive you to be quite educated in the Catholic Faith, I don’t see how you can be content in any other Church? The objections you raise here is nothing compared to those which you’ll find yourself combatting in a different church if you leave. It seems that your arguments with the Church were not always so.

The stuggles you have are personal within the acceptence of Catholic faith and you may never find peace unless you submit entirely to your faith within the faith, the Church.

Remember that it is not by understanding that we please God but by faith! Do not allow your intellect to take away from your faith. Do we not fall in the same sin of Adam to want to aquire complete knowledge of God. We can not understand all things nor are we required to do so, but to be submissive to Christ’s Church and the Authortity to which He left that began with the office of Peter (Papl Authority).

Christ set up a living, continuing authority to teach, govern, and sanctify in His name. If the office of Peter was not intended to be passed on then we could assume the office of bishops, priests and deacons (1 Tim 3:1, 8; 5:17) were not intended to be passed on as well, we know this not to be true, for it was by these members that Christ built his Church and it was by Christ promise that we know His Church shall last to the “end of time”.

You believe in the office of Peter as Chief Apostle and there is much scripture to support this, but you do not believe in the successors of Peter keeping that same authority… why would Jesus give this tremendous authority to Peter and not intend for it to be passed on? If at that time the early Christians needed an authoritative leader among the apostles, surely after the apostles died the Church would be in greater need of this authority, to protect the teachings of Christ from corruption.

I know that you know that the early church fathers believed in the succession of the primacy of Peter. There is over a dozen letters within the pre-nicene and nicene eras confirming there position. The Early Church Fathers are in opposition to your views. Stop searching out reasons that you know are unjustified to leave the Catholic Church.

I am not looking for where I want to go. I am looking for where Christ wants me to be. Thus far, I think He is leading me toward the Orthodox Church. But I will rely on Him and His guidance.

In reading your many posts and in reading a reply that was left to you by Ceil-1

To be honest, you are coming off rather silly. You are putting your soul in danger, which may already be in mortal sin. It sounds like a temptation of the enemy.

I was reminded of a few quotes:

“He who has the Holy Spirit loves the Church and in the degree to which he has the Holy Spirit is in the degree to which he loves the Church.”-St. Augustine

“Don’t think that you can have the Holy Spirit but don’t like the Catholic Church. That is a deceiving spirit… and any spirit that leads you out of the fullness of truth to a lesser truth (and all churches have some truth) is not the Holy Spirit. Don’t think you can seperate the head (Christ) form the body (His Church)… what you end up with, is spiritual death.” -Fr. John Corapi, The Truth is a Matter of Life or Death.

I share with you, that which I myself reflect on in regards to my own spiritual life. I claim not to be better then anybody else but that I have found peace in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

 

[geraldffff]

A father has rules and laws for his children and his household doesn’t he? Although his children in their immaturity might find the house rules cold and oppressive, the father’s motivation in making them is love and protection. If the children were capable of guiding themselves he wouldn’t have made them. And once the children have grown, they come to understand how wise and loving their father’s guidance was.

What you see now as oppressive ruIes (still quite early in your conversion), are the very things that helped make possible that joy you experienced early on. You were full of joy because you had submitted yourself in obedience to Christ’s Church. You had released yourself of the burden of figuring it all out with your own mortal mind. The minute you started analyzing everything according to the flesh, you stopped walking on the water.

I thank my father for the violent irrational beatings he gave me even though many stripes were given because he was frustrated and angry with my mother; becuse it taught me respect for authority. How ever I am gratefull to God and my mother for not allowing me to be infected by his distain for all females but thoese who gave him sexual pleasure. My mother I have to thank for my self loathing as she saw no good in men. So I hoist my Cross and pray for the assistance of Christ

 

[cbp07]

Dear NOMA: The Pope gets his authority from Christ himself. When Christ gave Peter the " Keys of the Kingdom " Jesus put Peter in Charge of His Church while He is away. In old testemeant times it was custom for the owner of an estate put someone in charge while they are away. Notice that Jesus gave the keys to peter and no one else, just the one Peter. We also know that was or is an apostle. We also know that being an apostle is an office. We know this because of what is written about Judas. " Let another take His place ". So when Peter died another took His place and the Keys also. As still is the way things are today. Please understand that the person who is Pope is with sin because we all are sinners, as was Peter. But when that person is speaking " from the Chair " as it is sometimes called they are speaking with the inspiration of the Holy Sprit. Hope that helps.

 

[Nullasalus]

noma:

But the Roman Church itself, in its rules, its laws, its morass of strictures and legislation, I have found to be without love.

I don’t see how that’s coming up here. Really, your disagreements with the Church have been fairly straightforward - women priests, contraception, etc. Those are arguments all on their own - but where is this morass of strictures and legislation and rules and laws?

You disagree with ‘laws’ of the church, but there is not a morass of them. The arguments are complicated and deep - but, those are arguments, not laws. Someone can write a five-volume series on the rationale behind jaywalking laws and when they are and are not appropriate. The rule itself is rather simple, as is the surface logic behind it.

 

[noma]

Where is the morass?

From the Seven Ecumenical Councils I have an 800 page text going through each canon, with exposition and commentary.

But ultimately, the canons are not very long, and this with the synopsis of the Council of Jerusalem and canons of the Apostles does not make for very long reading. It is straight forward and sensible.

When looking, however, at all the encyclicals, the specifically Roman councils, the extra “ecumenical” councils, and all the rest, one is left with an exposition that would take thousands upon thousands of pages. And much of this is declared as doctrine.

But the principles of the Orthodox faith are few, and profound. The depth is unfathomable, the understanding would take a lifetime. But they look less like a morass of wires, and more like well-structured pillars, made with ordered patterns largely untouched by reason, but fully and deeply True.

 

[Nullasalus]

Where is the morass?

From the Seven Ecumenical Councils I have an 800 page text going through each canon, with exposition and commentary.

But ultimately, the canons are not very long, and this with the synopsis of the Council of Jerusalem and canons of the Apostles does not make for very long reading. It is straight forward and sensible.

When looking, however, at all the encyclicals, the specifically Roman councils, the extra “ecumenical” councils, and all the rest, one is left with an exposition that would take thousands upon thousands of pages. And much of this is declared as doctrine.

But the principles of the Orthodox faith are few, and profound. The depth is unfathomable, the understanding would take a lifetime. But they look less like a morass of wires, and more like well-structured pillars, made with ordered patterns largely untouched by reason, but fully and deeply True.

You’re speaking with someone raised in the byzantine tradition here, so my respect for the orthodox is considerable.

As for the length of the expositions - well sure. It’s a 2000 year old Church, with hundreds of popes who all addressed issues that were pertinent to their time. I’m not sure, but I think the Catholic Church is the only religion with its own encyclopedia.

I’m not denying that there is - putting it charitably - a wealth of writings and considerations when it comes to the Catholic Church. I’m not even denying that the Church has considered many, many issues, and - through theologians, popes, saints, and otherwise - commented on them thoroughly. That’s a morass of material, but not really one of law.

It sounds like I’m splitting hairs here, and I don’t want to. I just don’t see the thoroughness of consideration that the Church has given to a variety of issues as a morass of laws. The law is simple. The justification and defense is back to the jaywalker topic.

 

[Eden]

Noma’s signature is beautiful. But I’m just wondering, what day will you be celebrating the feast of Christ’s birth, noma?

 

[Damascus]

Noma, how many threads do you have going that express your anguish?

Get some peace and move on my friend.

 

[noma]

I will be on holiday.

Thank everyone for their responses; I will not be posting until January.

God bless, and merry Christmas!

 

[Eden]

I will be on holiday.

Thank everyone for their responses; I will not be posting until January.

God bless, and merry Christmas!

Yes, Merry ChristMASS. Since your holiday is over in January, I assume you will celebrate Christ’s Mass on December 25th. You do realize that December 25th as the date to celebrate Christ’s birth is not in the Bible, right? In fact, by celebrating on the 25th of December you are giving tacit approval of Papal authority since, of course, the Church decided the date on which Christmas would be celebrated.

But maybe I am wrong. You could be using an Aztec calendar or an Islamic calendar or Jewish, Mayan, Hindu, Roman or Chinese. But I’m guessing you are using the standard, everyday calendar used in the Western world which is also known as the “Gregorian calendar”. Yes, that’s right, the calendar hanging on your wall indicating that Dec. 25th is Christmas is named after Pope Gregory XIII who created it’s modern form.

So, when you are celebrating ChristMASS on Dec. 25th, remember Christmas wouldn’t be Christmas as you know it without the Catholic Church.

 

[BlazingBolt]

Gnosticism is directly attacked in Scripture in Timothy.

From John 1:1, as well as many other places, Arius is refuted.

The majority of Catholic Answers seems to accept that these heresies were dealt with strongly in Scripture.

However, as I am leaning away from the the thesis of this thread (I was likely wrong, and shown to be so here), and as I am leaning toward accepting the authority of the first seven councils (I am leaning toward Orthodoxy), that right there would be sufficient for refutation.

I thought these heresies were around before the canon of scripture was defined. Didn’t these heresies have writings that supported them? I know at least the Gnostic heresy had actual Gospel’s that described things like Jesus bringing clay birds to life and killing children who annoyed him. I also heard the other day there was a Gospel of Phillip that claimed Joseph was Jesus father.

I also wonder about accepting just the first 7 councils. Why do we draw a line there? What occurs that makes you reject the 8th council?

Have you heard about how close the Arian heresy came to being accepted even after the council of Nicae rejected it? I believe it was only the intervention of God that protected the Church from this error when the Roman emperor became Arian.

The need for authority I think is clear when you look at the history of Christianity. Scripture seems to indicate Jesus gave that authority.