Church "authority"

[Augustus24]

I am addressing you as respectfully as it is possible to address someone that preaches the heresy of sola scriptura without showing us a scripture verse that teaches sola scriptura.

Here is the clearest example of Sola scriptura taught in scripture:

• II Timothy 3:16-17, “All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction, for training in righteousness, in order that the man of God might be complete, fully equipped for every good work.”*

The key words are “complete” and fully equipped".

Now, what does it mean to say that one “is fully equipped,” if not to say that one is sufficient for a task?

To be fully equipped means lacking nothing. Paul expressly rejects any other source of teaching, no Pope, no magisterium or any other rule of faith.

That the scriptures fully equip someone for every good work. Is praying to Mary or any other dead person a good work? The scriptures don’t say to do that. Or that Mary zoomed off into heaven, is teaching that a good work? Yet the scriptures don’t teach that either. The scriptures don’t fully equip a person for the aforementioned teachings in fact they know nothing of them at all.

 

[kwortham]

Good night, and pray for the heresiarchs.

 

[kwortham]

Here is the clearest example of Sola scriptura taught in scripture:

• II Timothy 3:16-17, “All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction, for training in righteousness, in order that the man of God might be complete, fully equipped for every good work.”*

The key words are “complete” and fully equipped".

Now, what does it mean to say that one “is fully equipped,” if not to say that one is sufficient for a task?

To be fully equipped means lacking nothing. Paul expressly rejects any other source of teaching, no Pope, no magisterium or any other rule of faith.

That the scriptures fully equip someone for every good work. Is praying to Mary or any other dead person a good work? The scriptures don’t say to do that. Or that Mary zoomed off into heaven, is teaching that a good work? Yet the scriptures don’t teach that either. The scriptures don’t fully equip a person for the aforementioned teachings in fact they know nothing of them at all.

The key word is profitable. Scripture is profitable as long as it is interpreted by the Holy Catholic Church:

(2Pet 1:20)
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The scripture referred to in 2nd Timothy 3:16 is Old Testament. Are you saying that only the OT is scripture?

Now, are you saying that Christ sinned against the Law of God and let His mother rot? Christ had to honor His mother to fulfill the Law. If He allowed His mother to die and rot in the ground, then He sinned. If Christ sinned, then you have NO hope of salvation. Therefore, Mary was assumed into heaven, or we are all going to hell.

Now, are we going to sit on our arses in heaven? No! What does this verse say?

(Rev 5:8)
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Since you believe that Christ sinned against His mother and let her rot, then you do not believe that she is in heaven praying for us. Christ has power over life and death. You say that He let His mother die. Therefore, you teach that Christ sinned against His mother by not preventing her death.

What will Christ say about your disrespect of His mother?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Do you really want to discuss 10 doctrines?

Why would I not? I did ask for them. Do you remotely think that an internet threat will make me nervous…

1. Universal Papal jurisdiction over all churches to which all churches must submit under pain of eternal damnation.

The Pope jurisdiction is clearly seen in [bibledrb]Matthew 16:18-19[/bibledrb]

And in [bibledrb]John 21:15-17[/bibledrb]

Perhaps you can show me where in Scriptures it says that the other Apostles are the rock of Jesus Church and where the other Apostles were told to feed Jesus’ sheep.

1. Papal infallibility

[bibledrb]John 14:16-18[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]John 14:26[/bibledrb]

We believe this is still true today.

Or perhaps you can show me where in Scriptures it says that teaching all truth was limited to the Apostles and not meant for the Church?

Like it says in [bibledrb]1 Timothy 3:15[/bibledrb]

1. Praying to saints or any dead person

You mean intercessory prayers? Heb 12:1 – What do you think the cloud of witnesses mean? Also, you think it is ok to ask a person to pray for you, but not a saint? You believe in evil spirits but not in good spirits?

Also in Revelations:

[bibledrb]Revelation 8:3[/bibledrb]

John clearly talks about the interaction of spirits:

[bibledrb]1 John 4:1-3[/bibledrb]

Which is also seen by Paul:

[bibledrb]Ephesians 6:18[/bibledrb]

1. Existence of Purgatory

In the Old Testament

The first mention of Purgatory in the Bible is in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.”

In the New Testament

In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” Now we know that no last penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.
Matthew 12:32 says, “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”
The same person as in the previously mentioned verse, Matthew, speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come. But not in Hell from which there is no liberation; nor in Heaven because nothing imperfect can enter it as we see in the next part. Any remission of sin cannot occur in either of these places because they are a final destination unlike purgatory.
Revelation 21:27: “…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.” The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the text around it for context).

Reference here: aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/where-is-purgatory-in-the-bible/

Continued

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Continued from above:

1. Mary as immaculately conceived & 7. Mary flew off into heaven without dying first

Not in Scriptures. However we have a Church that not only received the Scriptures but all the forms of Apostolic teaching and the fullness of truth from the Spirit of God.

catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption

1. Mary as co-mediator
   Again a great answer from CAF
   catholic.com/magazine/articles/mary-mother-of-salvation
2. I dont know if you guys still teach it, but when I was a Catholic, they taught that Mary’s hymen remained intact throughout childbirth.

If you don’t know why bring it up? We shall not give false testimony…
When you find it, then prove it comes from the OHCAC

1. Indulgences
   I can’t explain this better than CA’s own:
   catholic.com/tracts/primer-on-indulgences
2. The theory of transubstantiation that involves the Aristotelian terms of substance and accidents, and medieval alchemical forms.

Jesus said the bread and wine were His Body and Blood. The Church has had to define and defend many heresies. Even Scriptures clearly state that not everything is contained in it. If you think the contrary then prove it.

Here’s an interesting thread right here on CAF:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=210921

The Church received all truth and the fullness of the faith.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Scripture does not bow down to the authority of the church.

The church teaches truth and calls men to Christ and, in so doing, functions as the pillar and foundation thereof. The church does not add revelation or rule over Scripture. The church being the bride of Christ, listens to the Word of Christ, which is found in God-breathed Scripture.

And how do you know what is God breathed Scripture? Please provide Book, Chapter and Verse that explicitly provides that for us.

 

[joe370]

Can you show me in your catechism where your denomination claims to be “in charge” of scripture?

Even if one could you would reject it - right? Protestant perspective of the CCC = who cares…:shrug:History on the other hand, is really quite clear regarding the only church that existed for the first 400 years of Christianity i.e. from the time of Ignatius, (100 AD) pupil of an apostle to the time of Augustine (4th century). Could you at least admit that those two men (spanning the first 400 years of Christianity) belonged to the catholic church to which I belong? Very few non-Catholics here at CAF doubt that fact. For example, Ignatius said:

“Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, **wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
**
I had thought long ago: if those two men did not belong to the non-Catholic church to which I now (again, past tense) belong then why do I belong to it? Something did not add up. But that’s just me…

 

[Augustus24]

The key word is profitable. Scripture is profitable as long as it is interpreted by the Holy Catholic Church:

(2Pet 1:20)
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The scripture referred to in 2nd Timothy 3:16 is Old Testament. Are you saying that only the OT is scripture?

Now, are you saying that Christ sinned against the Law of God and let His mother rot? Christ had to honor His mother to fulfill the Law. If He allowed His mother to die and rot in the ground, then He sinned. If Christ sinned, then you have NO hope of salvation. Therefore, Mary was assumed into heaven, or we are all going to hell.

Now, are we going to sit on our arses in heaven? No! What does this verse say?

(Rev 5:8)
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Since you believe that Christ sinned against His mother and let her rot, then you do not believe that she is in heaven praying for us. Christ has power over life and death. You say that He let His mother die. Therefore, you teach that Christ sinned against His mother by not preventing her death.

What will Christ say about your disrespect of His mother?

The key word is profitable. Scripture is profitable as long as it is interpreted by the Holy Catholic Church:

You are adding words to scripture. Paul did not say profitable as long as your denomination interprets it. He added no other regula fide besides scripture, therefore scripture alone allows a christian to be “fully equipped”.

The scripture referred to in 2nd Timothy 3:16 is Old Testament. Are you saying that only the OT is scripture?

No Paul quoted from the NT calling it “scripture”.

Now, are you saying that Christ sinned against the Law of God and let His mother rot? Christ had to honor His mother to fulfill the Law. If He allowed His mother to die and rot in the ground, then He sinned. If Christ sinned, then you have NO hope of salvation. Therefore, Mary was assumed into heaven, or we are all going to hell.

That’s a lot of sophistry to prove an extrabiblical doctrine. The first mention of Mary flying off to heaven is in 377 by Epiphanius, and he claims “no one actually knows her end”. If it was a doctrine necessary for salvation, then why did no one mention it for almost 350 years. And was Epiphanius dammed because he says that he doesn’t actually know what happened? Even Isidore of Seville 300 years later admits that no one knows what happened, is Isidore of Seville dammed now too? The first explicit mention is in 590 by Gregory of Tours. So no Christian actually knew about Mary flying off to heaven until about 600 years after Christ. Were all those Christians dammed as well? Since it is such a late coming doctrine, it is pious opinion, and not binding on all Christians.

Also, Jesus had no problem letting his earthly father die, Joseph. Was Jesus sinning when he allowed his dad to die?

Now, are we going to sit on our arses in heaven?

No! We are going to be praising God and having a wedding feast. I look forward to it.

What does this verse say?

(Rev 5:8)
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

It says that 20 elders have incense bowls which the smoke is the prayers of the saints. It doesn’t tell people on earth to ask anything of anyone in heaven. Nothing about asking anyone in heaven to pray for you.

Since you believe that Christ sinned against His mother and let her rot, then you do not believe that she is in heaven praying for us.

Please don’t tell me what I believe. I address you respecfully, I ask the same from you.

I dont believe that Mary flew off into haven because its not in the scriptures, and no christian seemed to know about it for about 600 years after Christ. I believe Mary is in heaven, but what she is doing in heaven, scripture is silent on that too. Let us not add our own words to scripture.

Christ has power over life and death. You say that He let His mother die. Therefore, you teach that Christ sinned against His mother by not preventing her death.

Did Epiphanius teach the same by admitting he didn’t know? How about Isidore? No, they are considered saints in the Catholic church, right? Jesus also let his father die, was he sinning against Joseph by letting him die?

 

[JustaServant]

The first mention of Mary flying off to heaven is in 377 by Epiphanius, and he claims “no one actually knows her end”. If it was a doctrine necessary for salvation, then why did no one mention it for almost 350 years. And was Epiphanius dammed because he says that he doesn’t actually know what happened? Even Isidore of Seville 300 years later admits that no one knows what happened, is Isidore of Seville dammed now too? The first explicit mention is in 590 by Gregory of Tours. So no Christian actually knew about Mary flying off to heaven until about 600 years after Christ. Were all those Christians dammed as well? Since it is such a late coming doctrine, it is pious opinion, and not binding on all Christians.

Wrong:

If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: “Be it done according to your will” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2-17 [A.D. 300]).

That’s just written tradition, oral tradition goes back much furthur since the written word was not all they relied on.
BTW, your disrespect for the Virgin Mary is very telling.
She is your mother as well as ours if you are a Christian.

 

[guanophore]

Check out Psalm 19:7-14

David rejoices in God’s Word, declaring it to be perfect, trustworthy, right, radiant, enlightening, sure and altogether righteous. As such, being that the Bible is “perfect,” no other writings are necessary because it is inspired by God and all we need for salvation, life in Christ, and the building of the Kingdom.

Yes, the Word of God is most excellent, and the CC affirms that it is materially sufficient, inspired, inerrant, and all these other commendable things. However, your conclusion above does not follow and is an extrabiblical principle. The Bible is not “perfect”, for one thing, the Word of God is not limited to the Bible. The Word of God is a Person (who is perfect) but whose Word is in the Church as much as in the Bible.

The conclusion “no other writings are necessary” is also not a biblical concept, and if it were true, there would not be so many of them, including those that you use yourself (commentaries etc.)

The conclusion that the inspired Scriptures are "all we need for salvation " is also a false, anti-biblical statement. If this were true, then Jesus wasted His time and energy founding a Church.

Can you show me in your catechism where your denomination claims to be “in charge” of scripture?

No, he will not be able to do this. The Catechism, as you may well be aware, is clear that the Church is the SERVANT of the Scriptures.

However, we do receive from the Apostles that there are two equal and complimentary strands of Divine Revelation, including the Scriptures, and the Word of God alive and well in the Church (Sacred Tradition).

 Scripture does not bow down to the authority of the church.

I agree with you on this point. And the Catechism affirms this point.

The church teaches truth and calls men to Christ and, in so doing, functions as the pillar and foundation thereof.

There is much more to the authority of the Church than just the preaching of the Gospel.

 The church does not add revelation or rule over Scripture.

This is false. The Church did add revelation and rule to Scripture. the CC added the entire NT to the Septuagint, bound them together, canonize (created rules of inclusion) to the Scripture, paginated, chaptered and promulgated the Bible.

  The church being the bride of Christ, listens to the Word of Christ, which is found in God-breathed Scripture.

Yes.

86 “Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith.”

 

[Augustus24]

Why would I not? I did ask for them. Do you remotely think that an internet threat will make me nervous…

Hello. You said:

The Pope jurisdiction is clearly seen in [bibledrb]Matthew 16:18-19[/bibledrb]

No, papal jurisdiction took centuries to develop. Matthew 16:18-19 is referencing Peter’s confession of faith, not he himself. The rock is and always will be Jesus Christ, Peter’s confession of Christ is the rock of the church. Augustine reflects this view:
‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’…But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).*

Also, there is nothing about the Pope of old Rome here at all, popes did not start claiming universal jurisdiction for hundreds of years. That’s why the Orthodox continue to reject such claims.

1. Papal infallibility

[bibledrb]John 14:16-18[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]John 14:26[/bibledrb]

We believe this is still true today.

Nothing about any Pope of Rome here. Only that the Holy Spirit guides the church. I believe this wholeheartedly.

1. Praying to saints or any dead person

You mean intercessory prayers? Heb 12:1 – What do you think the cloud of witnesses mean? Also, you think it is ok to ask a person to pray for you, but not a saint? You believe in evil spirits but not in good spirits?

Intercessory prayers are for those on earth, thats why the scriptures never ask anyone to pray to a dead person. The cloud of witnesses refers to the whole church. Yet the author of Hebrews never directs anyone to pray to one of these witnesses.

As for Eph 6:18, its asking us to pray “in the Spirit”. Not pray to any spirits of dead folks who are in heaven. 1 John 4:1-3 is asking us to “test the spirits” because of false prophets. Nothing about praying to dead folks who are in heaven or asking them for anything. I believe in good and evil spirits who are angels, not ghosts or apparitions, things of that nature. Rev 8:3 shows the prayers of all Gods people are heard by God, nothing about praying to any dead folks who are in heaven.

The first mention of Purgatory in the Bible is in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.”

From my “New Catholic Answers Bible”.

“The statement is made here, however, only for the purpose of proving that Judas believed in the resurrection of the just” and “His belief was similar to, but not quite the same as, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.”

Matthew 5:26

Matthew 5:26 is part of an analogy Jesus makes concerning the sin of hatred. Catholic apologists suggest that since Jesus refers to a person remaining in prison until he’s “paid the last cent”, that might be a reference to people suffering in Purgatory until their sins have been completely atoned for. But if Jesus is referring to the afterlife, as opposed to just referring to the consequences of sin in this life, He’s referring to Hell, not Purgatory.Somebody who goes into eternity without having the sin of hatred atoned for would go to Hell, not any Purgatory. The person would indeed be there until he had “paid the last cent”, but we know from other passages that the price is paid eternally .

Matthew 12:32 says, “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

The Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory is for the atonement of sins that are already forgiven, so the passage isn’t even relevant.

Revelation 21:27: “…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.” The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the text around it for context).

I agree that no one whose name isn’t in the Lamb’s book of life will enter heaven. Nothing about purgatory here either.

 

[Augustus24]

Wrong:

That’s just written tradition, oral tradition goes back much furthur since the written word was not all they relied on.
BTW, your disrespect for the Virgin Mary is very telling.
She is your mother as well as ours if you are a Christian.

Hello. You cited “Pseudo Melito’s ‘Passing of the Virgin’”.

Actually Pseudo Melito is dated much later then 300. Most scholars date it to the late 5th century, that’s why Gregory of Tours cites it.

That’s just written tradition, oral tradition goes back much furthur since the written word was not all they relied on.

How do you know?

BTW, your disrespect for the Virgin Mary is very telling.

I don’t disrespect her at all.

She is your mother as well as ours if you are a Christian

Actually if I am a Christian, it means Mary is my sister. And I thought Catholics believed the Catholic Church is their mother. How can you have two mothers?

 

[guanophore]

 Here is the clearest example of Sola scriptura taught in scripture:

• II Timothy 3:16-17, “All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction, for training in righteousness, in order that the man of God might be complete, fully equipped for every good work.”*

The key words are “complete” and fully equipped".

Again I will agree with you, and this is the verse that is most often used to support the errant doctrine of SS. However, this verse does not say what you are trying to make it say.

It is clear that the Scripture is “profitable” in the TASK of instruction, training, etc. However, these TASKS were not delegated to Scripture, but to the CHURCH! Jesus never intended people to pick up a Bible and figure it out themselves.

Now, what does it mean to say that one “is fully equipped,” if not to say that one is sufficient for a task?

To be fully equipped means lacking nothing. Paul expressly rejects any other source of teaching, no Pope, no magisterium or any other rule of faith.

This is a false statement. Furthermore, St. Paul was using the Septuagint, so this would mean that the NT is excluded.

It is the role of the bishop to teach:

1 Tim 1:3

I urge you, as I did when I was on my way to Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine,

Titus 2:15
15 Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one look down on you.

1 Cor 14:37-38
37 Anyone who claims to be a prophet, or to have spiritual powers, must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. 38 Anyone who does not recognize this is not to be recognized.

2 John 9-11
9 Everyone who does not abide in the teaching of Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God; whoever abides in **the teaching **has both the Father and the Son. 10 Do not receive into the house or welcome anyone who comes to you and does not bring this teaching; 11 for to welcome is to participate in the evil deeds of such a person.

3 John 9
I have written something to the church; but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority.

The Aposltes were given the authority of Christ,a nd they, in turn, gave this to their successors, the Bishops.

That the scriptures fully equip someone for every good work.

No. It says that the Scriptures are PROFITABLE in the task of equipping the saints for every good work. Whose job is that? To whom did Jesus give the gifts and power to equip the saints?

This verse does NOT say we don’t need anything else, or that Scripture is the be all and end all of God’s revelation to man.

Next we look at what type of activities in which Scripture is profitable (useful). These activities include teaching, reproof, correction and training in rightousness. These are all parts of the Christian process of sanctification. What is the goal of all this teaching, reproving, correcting and training? That the man of God may be equipped. Scripture is useful in equipping the tasks of forming disciples.

Nowhere does it say that Scripture alone accomplishes these tasks. In fact, we find the contrary. To whom did God give these tasks?

Eph 4:10-14
10 He who descended is the same one who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might fill all things.) 11 The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ.

Jesus gave the gift of teaching and pastoring to PEOPLE, and these PEOPLE are charged with the responsibilty to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. These PEOPLE find scripture useful/profitable in the tasks of equiping the saints.

So I think that St. Paul here answers your question clearly. You need the people appointed and gifted by Jesus to equip you for the work of the ministry. You need to benefit from their use of the Scripture as they reprove, correct and teach you according to the gifts that God has established. And in the next verses he concludes:

Eph 4:14-16
We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and blown about by every wind of doctrine, by people’s trickery, by their craftiness in deceitful scheming. 15 But speaking the truth in love, we must grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the **whole body, joined and knit together by every ligament with which it is equipped, as each part is working properly, promotes the body’s growth in building itself up in love. **

You need it because Jesus established His Church, and He is buildign that Church in love. He provided the gifted people to profitably use the scriptures for the purpose of bringing us all to maturity.

You need those people because that is the way Jesus set it up.

 

[guanophore]

(continued)

 Is praying to Mary or any other dead person a good work?

Yes but none of those who are in Christ are “dead”.
1 John 2:17
those who do the will of God live forever.

2 Tim 2:11
If we have died with him, we will also live with him;

There are none more righteous than those who have been perfected in faith.

James 5:16-17
The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

The scriptures don’t say to do that.’/quote]

I agree. But they do say that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. No one can be a witness who is “dead” or that cannot see or hear. But our Tradition of praying to those who have gone on before us has more support outside of Scripture than inside. It is part of the Word of God that was deposited once for all to the Saints before the NT was compiled.
Augustus24;10464103:

The Or that Mary zoomed off into heaven, is teaching that a good work?

It is a good work to teach the resurrection. However, the CC does not teach that “Mary zoomed off to heaven”. This is a falsehood I beseech you to refrain from spreading, as it only glorifies he who is the Father of Lies.

The Yet the scriptures don’t teach that either.

Nor the Trinity, the hypostatic union, the Theotokos, the observance of Sunday and a host of other things, like the canon of Scripture. Where do you find the table of contents for the Holy Writings? All these were developed by the Church. They are not “wrong” just becaue you cannot find them in Scripture.

The The scriptures don’t fully equip a person for the aforementioned teachings in fact they know nothing of them at all.

Well, we read them differently, don’t we?

And Catholics are not contaminated by the heresy of Sola Scriptura, so the fact that we don’t find the Assumption or the word Trinity in the pages is not a concern for us.

 

[JustaServant]

Actually if I am a Christian, it means Mary is my sister. And I thought Catholics believed the Catholic Church is their mother. How can you have two mothers?

Wrong again.

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying “behold your mother.” Jesus did not say “John, behold your mother” because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The “woman’s” (Mary’s) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God’s covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

Your disrespect is in your terminology “flying off into Heaven” made several times in a snarky way. Thats something I would expect out of an athiest, not someone who claims to be a Christian.

 

[Augustus24]

Hello to all who have responded to me.

Thank you for your responses, and you have given me much to consider.

I am have a great time discussing these issues with you guys (and gals). But unfortunately I am racking up infractions, and I don’t wish to get banned.

So if you would like to continue this discussion with me, I invite you to p.m. me, and I will provide you my personal email address and we can continue this discussion privately.

Yours,

Aug.

 

[Augustus24]

Hello to all who have responded to me.

Thank you for your responses, and you have given me much to consider.

I am have a great time discussing these issues with you guys (and gals).

If you would like to continue this discussion with me, I invite you to p.m. me, and I will provide you my personal email address and we can continue this discussion privately.

Yours,

Aug.

 

[guanophore]

 You are adding words to scripture.  Paul did not say profitable as long as your denomination interprets it.

I agree with you. However, this seems to be happening on both sides. You are adding words to the Scripture also, to try to make them say what they do not.

The CC is not a “denomination”. Denominations are those that split off from the One Church founded by Christ. He gave that Church “all authority”, and taught them to interpret the Scriptures properly, and commissioned them to “rightly divide the word of Truth”.

Here is the clearest example of Sola scriptura taught in scripture:

• II Timothy 3:16-17, “All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction, for training in righteousness, in order that the man of God might be complete, fully equipped for every good work.”*

The key words are “complete” and fully equipped".

Now, what does it mean to say that one “is fully equipped,” if not to say that one is sufficient for a task?

To be fully equipped means lacking nothing. Paul expressly rejects any other source of teaching, no Pope, no magisterium or any other rule of faith.

That the scriptures fully equip someone for every good work. Is praying to Mary or any other dead person a good work? The scriptures don’t say to do that. Or that Mary zoomed off into heaven, is teaching that a good work? Yet the scriptures don’t teach that either. The scriptures don’t fully equip a person for the aforementioned teachings in fact they know nothing of them at all.

Here you have added the following

• The Scriptures fully equip someone for every good work (Scripture says otherwise)
• Everything that is taught needs to be found in Scripture (no where does it say that)
• Paul rejects other teaching/authority/rule of faith (Scripture expressely says the opposite)

Now I realize that you have been misled to believe these heresies, but that is what they are.

He added no other regula fide besides scripture, therefore scripture alone allows a christian to be "fully equipped".

No, Augustus, you are in error. On the contrary, Paul taught that the regula fide is contained in Sacred Tradition.

Gal 6:16
As for those who will follow **this rule **— peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

1 Tim 5:17-18

17 Let **the elders who rule **well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

2 Thess 2:15
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

Why would the Apostle command them to hold fast to something that was “man made”?

1 Thess 2:13-14

13 We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, **God’s word, which is also at work in you believers. **

The Sacred Tradition is God’s Word at work in the Church. It is not the word of men.

No Paul quoted from the NT calling it “scripture”.

Can you give an example?

Probably you are thinking of Peter, but this was before there was a “New Testament”.

 

[guanophore]

That’s a lot of sophistry to prove an extrabiblical doctrine.

I don’t think you have used any sophistry, just bald faced and unsupported assertions that contradict the Scriptures.

The first mention of Mary flying off to heaven is in 377 by Epiphanius, and he claims “no one actually knows her end”.

Augustus, you don’t have to agree with the Apostolic faith, but if you are going to post here, you need to respect our beliefs, and refrain from such disrespectful characterizations (which are false).

If it was a doctrine necessary for salvation, then why did no one mention it for almost 350 years.

I could ask you the same about the Trinity, and the hypostatic union.

Doctrines were not defined and dogmatized until heresy was rampant. No one ever contested that the Mother of Jesus was take to heaven by her son.

And was Epiphanius dammed because he says that he doesn’t actually know what happened?

No. He was referring to the fact that we do not know for sure if she actually died, or if she was taken up near death. All we know is that her earthly life was completed.

Even Isidore of Seville 300 years later admits that no one knows what happened, is Isidore of Seville dammed now too? The first explicit mention is in 590 by Gregory of Tours.

Is there some reason that you think the mother of Jesus should not be united with Him in heaven?

So no Christian actually knew about Mary flying off to heaven until about 600 years after Christ. Were all those Christians dammed as well? Since it is such a late coming doctrine, it is pious opinion, and not binding on all Christians.

It is part of the Sacred Deposit of faith. We are not at liberty to jettison any of that Once For All divine revelation. We don’t get to decide whether it is “necessary” or not. That is for God to decide. We are commanded to hold fast to it, so we do. The Reformers came along and began to assert that they had the authority to determine what could be kept and what could be thrown out. As a result, we have denominations (not part of God’s plan).

Also, Jesus had no problem letting his earthly father die, Joseph.  Was Jesus sinning when he allowed his dad to die?

This is not up to us to decide either.

It says that 20 elders have incense bowls which the smoke is the prayers of the saints. It doesn’t tell people on earth to ask anything of anyone in heaven. Nothing about asking anyone in heaven to pray for you.

I agree with you on this point. I think the Scripture is relatively weak on the communion of saints. If we had not received this practice through the Sacred Tradition, I doubt that it would exist as it does as evidenced by those believers such as yourself that reject the Word of God in the Church.

I dont believe that Mary flew off into haven because its not in the scriptures, and no christian seemed to know about it for about 600 years after Christ.

Pleasen Augustus, try to curb yourself.

The CC does not teach that “Mary flew off to heaven”. This is simply a lie.

I believe Mary is in heaven, but what she is doing in heaven, scripture is silent on that too. Let us not add our own words to scripture.

Mary is doing in heaven just what all the saints do, they pray for us, and intercede, and sometimes work miracles as God allows.

You have added quite a few concepts to Scripture yourself, so it seems ironic for you to make such a demand. Furthermore, the CC added 27 books to Scripture, which you seem to believe are fine to include?

Did Epiphanius teach the same by admitting he didn't know?  How about Isidore?  No, they are considered saints in the Catholic church, right?  Jesus also let his father die, was he sinning against Joseph by letting him die?

The fact that the saints did not know everything does not mean the facts are not the facts.

It is not up to us to decide who God assumes into heaven. Why did He take Enoch, and not others? Why Elisha? Why did He allow Moses and Elijah to come to Him and discuss His upcoming departure in Jerusalem?

Why did God allow the prophet Samuel to appear and talk to King Saul and foretell his death? It is not up to us to decide these things.

 

[guanophore]

I see that you got banned while I was composing my last reply. This is regrettable, but probably it means that you were unable to curb your anti-Catholic hostility and the spreading of lies (accusing the CC of things she does not teach).

For the sake of any lurkers who may be reading I am going to go ahead and reply to some of your comments.

Intercessory prayers are for those on earth, thats why the scriptures never ask anyone to pray to a dead person.

It is true that we are to pray for one another, however, the Scriptures are clear that no one in heaven is “dead” - on the contrary, they are alive, and well, and are able to know whatever God wants them to know about activities here on earth.

The reason the “Scriptures never ask anyone to pray” to those who have gone on before us in faith is that the NT was never intended to be a full compendium of the faith. Ther e is a great deal that is not contained in it.

The cloud of witnesses refers to the whole church. Yet the author of Hebrews never directs anyone to pray to one of these witnesses.

The NT is not intended to be a complete collection of directives to Christians. Jesus created a Chuch, and the Church is responsibile for directing the faithful. To Peter He gave the special feeding and guidance of the flock.

As for Eph 6:18, its asking us to pray “in the Spirit”. Not pray to any spirits of dead folks who are in heaven.

I agree. There ARE no “dead saints in heaven”. They are part of the living communion of saints, and we are all connected “in the Spirit” because we are members one of another. Death does not separate us from Him, and therefore, from each other.

Rev 8:3 shows the prayers of all Gods people are heard by God, nothing about praying to any dead folks who are in heaven.

It seems you are working very hard here to deny the communion of saints. The CC has been praying to those who have gone on before us in the faith since the martrydom of Stephen recorded in the book of Acts. If there were something wrong with this practice, how come it is not condemned in the NT, which was written later?

Acts 2:42
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

The prayers of the Apostles, along wth the Apostolic teaching, fellowship, and Eucharist are contained in the Sacred Tradition. No effort was ever made to write them all down.

Matthew 5:26 is part of an analogy Jesus makes concerning the sin of hatred. Catholic apologists suggest that since Jesus refers to a person remaining in prison until he's "paid the last cent", that might be a reference to people suffering in Purgatory until their sins have been completely atoned for. But if Jesus is referring to the afterlife, as opposed to just referring to the consequences of sin in this life, He's referring to Hell, not Purgatory.Somebody who goes into eternity without having the sin of hatred atoned for would go to Hell, not any Purgatory. The person would indeed be there until he had "paid the last cent", but we know from other passages that the price is paid eternally .

Yes. Purgatory is a state of cleansing where all sins which have already been atoned for by Christ are purified from the person. No one has the grace of this purging without sins already having been atoned.

The Catholic Church teaches that Purgatory is for the atonement of sins that are already forgiven, so the passage isn’t even relevant.

Because you are right, ,unatoned sins bear the penalty of hell.

1 Cor 3:13-15
the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

The person is saved already, and it is only their works, not done in Christ, that are burned away.

I will pray for you Augustus 24, for you obviously are suffering from some grave misunderstandings about the Catholic faith, and have an overwhelming degree of hostility toward the Sacred Tradition. May God deliver you from these things. And may Mary, Mother of the Church, reveal to you the fruit of her womb, Jesus.